SalarySwishSalarySwish
Forums/Armchair-GM

Mitch Marner vs Prime Phil Kessel

Créé par: AnalyticsGeek
Équipe: 2019-20 Équipe personnalisée
Date de création initiale: 25 juin 2020
Publié: 25 juin 2020
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
Description
Today, I want to do a comparison of two players who have played for Toronto before, and both earned the reputation as being lazy, soft, selfish and a locker room cancer. Both players have been questioned by fans and media for their attitude and commitment to the team, but nonetheless, they are both elite talents.

Phil Kessel is an elite goal scorer with excellent speed. He has scored 371 goals and 861 points in 1066 regular season games (PPG of .807). In the playoffs, he has 33 goals and 77 points in 87 games (PPG of 0.885).

Mitch Marner is a playmaker with good stick-handling and agility. He has 83 goals and 291 points in 300 regular season games (0.97 PPG). In the playoffs, he has 5 goals and 17 points in 20 games (PPG of 0.85)

As for defensive game, Phil Kessel averages 1.1 defensive point shares per season. His best season, he has an expected goals against that ranks in the 50th percentile. Mitch Marner averages 1.5 defensive point shares per season. His best season in expected goals against ranks in the 72nd percentile.

Personally, my vote goes to Kessel, he was able to notch several point per game seasons playing on a poor Toronto team. It's close, however.
TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS Info-bulleBONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
2081 500 000 $116 538 491 $0 $850 000 $-35 038 491 $

Formation

Ailier gaucheCentreAilier droit
Logo de Penguins de Pittsburgh
Guentzel, Jake
4 500 000 $4 500 000 $
AG, AD
UFA - 5
Logo de Penguins de Pittsburgh
Crosby, Sidney
8 700 000 $8 700 000 $
C
NMC
UFA - 6
Kessel, Phil
8 000 000 $8 000 000 $
Logo de Penguins de Pittsburgh
Zucker, Jason
5 500 000 $5 500 000 $
AG, AD
M-NTC
UFA - 4
Logo de Penguins de Pittsburgh
Malkin, Evgeni
9 500 000 $9 500 000 $
C
NMC
UFA - 3
Logo de Penguins de Pittsburgh
Rust, Bryan
3 500 000 $3 500 000 $
AD, AG
UFA - 3
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Hyman, Zach
2 250 000 $2 250 000 $
AD, AG
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Tavares, John
11 000 000 $11 000 000 $
C, AG
NMC
UFA - 6
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Marner, Mitchell
10 893 000 $10 893 000 $
AD
UFA - 6
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Nylander, William
6 962 366 $6 962 366 $
AD
UFA - 5
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Matthews, Auston
11 634 000 $11 634 000 $
C
UFA - 5
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Kapanen, Kasperi
3 200 000 $3 200 000 $
AD
UFA - 3
Défenseur gaucherDéfenseur droitierGardien de but
Logo de Penguins de Pittsburgh
Dumoulin, Brian
4 100 000 $4 100 000 $
DG
M-NTC
UFA - 4
Logo de Penguins de Pittsburgh
Letang, Kris
7 250 000 $7 250 000 $
DD
M-NTC, NMC
UFA - 3
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Andersen, Frederik
5 000 000 $5 000 000 $
G
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Muzzin, Jake
4 000 000 $4 000 000 $
DG
UFA - 1
Logo de Penguins de Pittsburgh
Murray, Matt
3 750 000 $3 750 000 $
G
UFA - 1
Logo de Penguins de Pittsburgh
Pettersson, Marcus
874 125 $874 125 $
DG
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Rielly, Morgan
5 000 000 $5 000 000 $
DG
UFA - 3
Logo de Penguins de Pittsburgh
Marino, John
925 000 $925 000 $ (Bonis de performance850 000 $$850K)
DD
UFA - 2

Unités spéciales

Avantage numérique 1
Kessel, P.
Crosby, S.
Guentzel, J.
Letang, K.
Malkin, E.
Avantage numérique 2
Nylander, W.
Tavares, J.
Matthews, A.
Marner, M.
Rielly, M.
Infériorité numérique 1
Hyman, Z.
Kapanen, K.
Dumoulin, B.
Letang, K.
Infériorité numérique 2
Zucker, J.
Rust, B.
Muzzin, J.
Marino, J.

Code d'intégration

  • Pour afficher cette équipe sur un autre site Web ou blog, ajoutez ce iFrame à la page appropriée
  • Personnalisez les dimensions dans le code IFrame ci-dessous pour adapter votre site de manière appropriée. Minimum recommandé: 400px.

Texte intégré

Cliquer pour surligner
Who's Better?
Le graphique a été masqué

Options de sondage


25 juin 2020 à 18 h 44
#26
draft_em_sign_em_trade_em
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: nov. 2018
Messages: 9,367
Mentions "j'aime": 2,267
Quoting: Ledge_And_Dairy
I'm going to say Marner but I want to point out something. Kessel struggled a bit when he had to carry his line in Toronto, he succeeded in Pittsburgh though as the 2nd best player on his line, now that he is the "best player on the line" in Arizona he is struggling again. Marner has never really had to carry his own line


Marner never had to carry his line >?

His first 2 seasons he played with mostly with Kadri as his center (sometimes Bozak when Babcock was unhappy), if you notice Kadri only two 30+ goal seasons of his career came when Mitch was feeding him the puck. Marner was well on his way to being a 80+ point guy even with the 50 point guy Kadri as his center. Adding Mitch to J.T. or Matthews did not inflate his numbers to being unrealistic.

Kessel, who played mostly with Bozak (sometimes Kadri) maxed out as a 70 point guy for the Leafs. Now whether Kessel's age has caught up to him or his time with the 'yotes gives us a perfect example of his true talent/value. Right now a straight up Kapanen for Kessel trade would be unfair to the team getting Phat Phil.
25 juin 2020 à 18 h 49
#27
AnalyticsGeek
Démarrer sujet
Banni
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: sept. 2019
Messages: 5,011
Mentions "j'aime": 1,636
Quoting: Ledge_And_Dairy
I'm going to say Marner but I want to point out something. Kessel struggled a bit when he had to carry his line in Toronto, he succeeded in Pittsburgh though as the 2nd best player on his line, now that he is the "best player on the line" in Arizona he is struggling again. Marner has never really had to carry his own line




Quoting: draft_em_sign_em_trade_em
Marner never had to carry his line >?

His first 2 seasons he played with mostly with Kadri as his center (sometimes Bozak when Babcock was unhappy), if you notice Kadri only two 30+ goal seasons of his career came when Mitch was feeding him the puck. Marner was well on his way to being a 80+ point guy even with the 50 point guy Kadri as his center. Adding Mitch to J.T. or Matthews did not inflate his numbers to being unrealistic.

Kessel, who played mostly with Bozak (sometimes Kadri) maxed out as a 70 point guy for the Leafs. Now whether Kessel's age has caught up to him or his time with the 'yotes gives us a perfect example of his true talent/value. Right now a straight up Kapanen for Kessel trade would be unfair to the team getting Phat Phil.


Marner played on a line with Kadri & Marleau in 2017/18, scored 36 points in 33 games. 90 point pace. IDK if that counts as carrying a line but he was the productive player there.
25 juin 2020 à 18 h 50
#28
Ledge_And_Dairy
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juin 2019
Messages: 38,636
Mentions "j'aime": 19,741
Quoting: draft_em_sign_em_trade_em
Marner never had to carry his line >?

His first 2 seasons he played with mostly with Kadri as his center (sometimes Bozak when Babcock was unhappy), if you notice Kadri only two 30+ goal seasons of his career came when Mitch was feeding him the puck. Marner was well on his way to being a 80+ point guy even with the 50 point guy Kadri as his center. Adding Mitch to J.T. or Matthews did not inflate his numbers to being unrealistic.

Kessel, who played mostly with Bozak (sometimes Kadri) maxed out as a 70 point guy for the Leafs.


Rookie and sophomore season's don't exactly count towards carrying a line when you are still learning the ways of the game. If anything he learned how to be a 2-way player from those years. I never said Marner's current numbers are unrealistic either but JT and AM definitely inflate them a bit. Was he the best offensive player on that line? Yes, would I justify that as carrying the line? No.
25 juin 2020 à 19 h 3
#29
CrazyFlamesFan
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juin 2020
Messages: 308
Mentions "j'aime": 89
Wait Marner has been called locker room cancer? I thought he was well liked?
leafs101 a aimé ceci.
25 juin 2020 à 19 h 10
#30
MitchMarner_16
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: févr. 2020
Messages: 4,214
Mentions "j'aime": 5,077
Quoting: PrimeDatsyuk
Marner has never been given the reputation of a locker room cancer, if anything i've only heard the opposite. I don't understand why all you do is hate on marner, like every ACGM you make you undervalue him massively. oh well


X1000
25 juin 2020 à 19 h 16
#31
Capitalfail67
Caps fan idk why
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: déc. 2016
Messages: 11,317
Mentions "j'aime": 4,371
I’d say Marner but Kessel is 100x more cool. Actually Kessel. Kessel body type and all the things that come with that I’m far more impressed he plays hockey than marner. Kessel is my final answer.
25 juin 2020 à 19 h 25
#32
Skyraider112
Sabres are elite
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juin 2017
Messages: 7,995
Mentions "j'aime": 3,305
For the price of the contract definitely Phil, for personality: Phil, for winning resume: Phil.

Just because Marner gets close to 100 points playing with elite centers doesn't make him nearly as good as Phil in his prime. Phil has won 2 cups and was a ppg on an atrocious Leafs team back in the day
mhockey91 a aimé ceci.
25 juin 2020 à 19 h 30
#33
HattrickKane88
PatrickKaneIsGOAT
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: nov. 2019
Messages: 293
Mentions "j'aime": 24
Quoting: MitchMarnerElite


How is this even a question? Kessel is the much better player, it’s not even close. He’s carried his teams to Stanley Cups & was a consistent 30 goal scorer for over a decade. I’d take that every time. It’s comical how you people vastly overrated Marner. He is not special at all. The only thing he does is earn assists. No one cares about assists. It’s the most worthless & easiest stat to earn. When you watch him play, it’s clear he doesn’t have the ability to play in the NHL. He’s too physically weak yet doesn’t have the talent to make up for it. He just throws the puck into a random area for Matthews to get him results. I don’t know how anyone can argue against that. If he wasn’t being carried by Matthews, he’s be in the AHL.
mhockey91 a aimé ceci.
25 juin 2020 à 19 h 33
#34
KeepUps15
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: janv. 2020
Messages: 4,423
Mentions "j'aime": 1,457
Don't respond to this HattrickKane guy. This is 100% just for attention. Don't give it to him
Ledge_And_Dairy, Wadejos123, SlickWilly and 5 others a aimé ceci.
25 juin 2020 à 19 h 35
#35
HattrickKane88
PatrickKaneIsGOAT
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: nov. 2019
Messages: 293
Mentions "j'aime": 24
Quoting: justaBoss
Marner, pretty easily in my opinion.

Kessel needs good linemates to shine. It's no wonder his best years were with Malkin. Marner however makes players around him better.


The stupidity of this takes makes me wonder if you’re trolling or just plain stupid. “Kessel needs good linemates to shine?” Are you high? In Toronto he was playing on a line with 2 garbage players in Bozak & Lupul every season yet he was consistently scoring 35 goals & a point per game. Also, when he was in Pittsburgh, it was him carrying Malkin, not the other way around. All Malkin did was float around & take lazy penalties.

“Marner makes other players around him better.”

Are you drunk? The only reason Marner is in the NHL is because he’s getting carried by Matthews.
mhockey91 a aimé ceci.
25 juin 2020 à 19 h 40
#36
HattrickKane88
PatrickKaneIsGOAT
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: nov. 2019
Messages: 293
Mentions "j'aime": 24
Quoting: exo2769
I'm still waiting to see if Kessel knows how to play defense and I'm not going to hold my breath. Kessel has a grand total of 59:15 in PK time......for his entire career. Marner just spent 130:58 last year and 110:52 the year before that. Kessel was set up SOOO perfectly in that PIT system that he was never even asked to play defense. It wasn't and isn't even part of his vocabulary.


Such a stupid take. No one cares about defence. A forward’s job is to score goals & no one does it better than Phil Kessel. Until Marner can drop 40 in the back of the net, this isn’t even a question.
25 juin 2020 à 19 h 43
#37
SlickWilly
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: nov. 2017
Messages: 3,256
Mentions "j'aime": 2,201
Quoting: keep_ups12
Don't respond to this HattrickKane guy. This is 100% just for attention. Don't give it to him


"damnit he's back again"
exo2769, KeepUps15 et bhavikp27 a aimé ceci.
25 juin 2020 à 19 h 43
#38
HattrickKane88
PatrickKaneIsGOAT
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: nov. 2019
Messages: 293
Mentions "j'aime": 24
Quoting: Skyraider112
For the price of the contract definitely Phil, for personality: Phil, for winning resume: Phil.

Just because Marner gets close to 100 points playing with elite centers doesn't make him nearly as good as Phil in his prime. Phil has won 2 cups and was a ppg on an atrocious Leafs team back in the day


Quoting: Capitalfail67
I’d say Marner but Kessel is 100x more cool. Actually Kessel. Kessel body type and all the things that come with that I’m far more impressed he plays hockey than marner. Kessel is my final answer.


This. Marner is absolute garbage. The only reason the guy has an NHL career is because he’s playing with a franchise center in Matthews & now everyone is thinking he’s the next Patrick Kane. Canadians are the best at overrating their players.
25 juin 2020 à 19 h 44
#39
SlickWilly
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: nov. 2017
Messages: 3,256
Mentions "j'aime": 2,201
Realistically, Marner hasnt hit his "prime" yet. Generally, a players prime is when they hit 26 or 27. Maybe we are seeing a shift in a younger prime age for the NHL, but I think Marner still has room to grow and I think the comparison is kinda moot for now
25 juin 2020 à 19 h 53
#40
exo2769
exo2769
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juill. 2015
Messages: 15,757
Mentions "j'aime": 9,926
Quoting: HattrickKane88
Such a stupid take. No one cares about defence. A forward’s job is to score goals & no one does it better than Phil Kessel. Until Marner can drop 40 in the back of the net, this isn’t even a question.


Who has the career high in points in a season between these two??? Yeah its Marner... I'm just emphasizing that one of these players is a 1 way player...the other one is marner who also has 94 points in a season.
25 juin 2020 à 20 h 23
#41
Richard88
John 3 16
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: avr. 2020
Messages: 9,584
Mentions "j'aime": 4,618
Please stop replying to the post with all the "@" tags. And please remove me from that list.
25 juin 2020 à 20 h 25
#42
Jexus
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juin 2020
Messages: 1,450
Mentions "j'aime": 576
Its pretty close. Prime Kessel took a lot of s*it from analysts and media but he was a gamer in the second season. I don't watch much eastern conference hockey so I have not seen a lot of MM but his stats are strong. I like both but slight edge to prime kessel for his dorky photos and aloof personality.
Silkysmooth42 et papishark a aimé ceci.
25 juin 2020 à 20 h 26
#43
AnalyticsGeek
Démarrer sujet
Banni
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: sept. 2019
Messages: 5,011
Mentions "j'aime": 1,636
Quoting: HattrickKane88
How is this even a question? Kessel is the much better player, it’s not even close. He’s carried his teams to Stanley Cups & was a consistent 30 goal scorer for over a decade. I’d take that every time. It’s comical how you people vastly overrated Marner. He is not special at all. The only thing he does is earn assists. No one cares about assists. It’s the most worthless & easiest stat to earn. When you watch him play, it’s clear he doesn’t have the ability to play in the NHL. He’s too physically weak yet doesn’t have the talent to make up for it. He just throws the puck into a random area for Matthews to get him results. I don’t know how anyone can argue against that. If he wasn’t being carried by Matthews, he’s be in the AHL.


Yikes, I can’t agree with that. Marner is actually quite talented. He’s very elusive when he has the puck & is great at evading defenders & creating space. The problem is, he’s quite lazy & doesn’t always make great decisions. He tries to dangle too much sometimes turns it over. Generally, he’s doesn’t seem to skate very hard & never retrieves pucks in the dirty areas. But he is definitely a high profile talent.
25 juin 2020 à 20 h 27
#44
AnalyticsGeek
Démarrer sujet
Banni
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: sept. 2019
Messages: 5,011
Mentions "j'aime": 1,636
Quoting: Capitalfail67
I’d say Marner but Kessel is 100x more cool. Actually Kessel. Kessel body type and all the things that come with that I’m far more impressed he plays hockey than marner. Kessel is my final answer.


Who’d you say is the better player between TJ Oshie (prime) and Mitch Marner?
25 juin 2020 à 20 h 28
#45
AnalyticsGeek
Démarrer sujet
Banni
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: sept. 2019
Messages: 5,011
Mentions "j'aime": 1,636
Quoting: Skyraider112
For the price of the contract definitely Phil, for personality: Phil, for winning resume: Phil.

Just because Marner gets close to 100 points playing with elite centers doesn't make him nearly as good as Phil in his prime. Phil has won 2 cups and was a ppg on an atrocious Leafs team back in the day


Yes I agree I think talent wise they are at a similar level but Marner still has miles to go before he reaches Phil’s level. Who’d you say is better between Mitch Marner & Sam Reinhart?
25 juin 2020 à 21 h 19
#46
Capitalfail67
Caps fan idk why
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: déc. 2016
Messages: 11,317
Mentions "j'aime": 4,371
Quoting: HattrickKane88
This. Marner is absolute garbage. The only reason the guy has an NHL career is because he’s playing with a franchise center in Matthews & now everyone is thinking he’s the next Patrick Kane. Canadians are the best at overrating their players.


So you are going to diminish Marner for playing with his teammate and you feel that if he played with a lesser center like maybe Tavares his numbers would decline? That’s a stretch. Kane is great and maybe Marner could be comparable. I personally don’t think it’s possible but to discredit him for playing w Matthews is silly. Should he request to play w kerfoot to get rid of this narrative ?
25 juin 2020 à 21 h 20
#47
Capitalfail67
Caps fan idk why
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: déc. 2016
Messages: 11,317
Mentions "j'aime": 4,371
Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
Who’d you say is the better player between TJ Oshie (prime) and Mitch Marner?


Marner. Oshie was never really elite. Just a really hard working skill guy. Marner doesn’t get traded for Brouwer
25 juin 2020 à 21 h 26
#48
Silkysmooth42
Banni
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: mai 2017
Messages: 4,561
Mentions "j'aime": 1,266
Quoting: Jexus
Its pretty close. Prime Kessel took a lot of s*it from analysts and media but he was a gamer in the second season. I don't watch much eastern conference hockey so I have not seen a lot of MM but his stats are strong. I like both but slight edge to prime kessel for his dorky photos and aloof personality.


Excellent analysis !
Jexus a aimé ceci.
25 juin 2020 à 22 h 6
#49
HatterTParty
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: juin 2019
Messages: 2,351
Mentions "j'aime": 851
Hard argue against Kessel’s body of work. Two cups, all star caliber player, loads of goals, and one of the best wrist shots around. Plus, I mean, look the goal totals with the leafs (the BAD leafs). Pure class. I would have to say him right now. However.......

Marner clearly isn’t in his prime yet and he’s already topping 90 points and one of the best pure playmakers in the league. No, i don’t believe he is reliant on Matthews (seriously, hattrick Kane kills me 😂). He’s great with almost anyone on that team and will continue to get better.

Verdict: gotta go with Kessel for now. Track record, stats, and marner not in his prime yet all contribute to that. However, give it 3-4 more years and we may be having a different conversation.
leafs101 a aimé ceci.
26 juin 2020 à 0 h 19
#50
Bcarlo25
Bcarlo25
Avatar de l'utilisateur
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 21,314
Mentions "j'aime": 7,044
@MitchMarnerElite can you not tag me in this stuff anymore please. I get 16 notifications from people quoting it, and i didn’t even care in the first place.
vr1995 a aimé ceci.
 
Répondre
To create a post please Login or S'inscrire
Question:
Options:
Chargement de l'animation
Soumettre les modifications du sondage