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(PIT/CAR) - Guentzel, Smith for Bunting, Koivunen, Ponomarev, Lucius, 2024 2nd (PHI), 2024 5th (CAR)

Who won the trade?
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8 mars à 0 h 15
#51
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I'll never get tired of fans who claim Kyle Dubas is a good GM. tears of joy
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8 mars à 0 h 15
#52
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The best part of this trade is that Dubas will either forget to q.o. this prospects or bury them.
8 mars à 0 h 17
#53
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If I was a Pens fan I obviously would have wanted a prime prospect, but I don't think they did too bad.

Adding Koivunen, Ponomarev, and a conditional 1st/2nd to an org that has a shallow prospect pool is healthy. Really like those two guys. Sure, I'd rather have the blue chip and 1st, but if it isn't there, it isn't there. Better than trading away what little youth you have left and trying to cobble together a late run, and better than losing Guentzel for nothing.

Bunting helps ease the blow in the short-term.
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8 mars à 0 h 21
#54
MontrealCanadiensFAN
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https://twitter.com/Real_RobRossi/status/1765965425601388608
“I don’t know.”

Sidney Crosby on what message GM Kyle Dubas sent to ⁦
@penguins
⁩ with trade of Jake Guentzel.

#NHLTradeDeadline ⁦
@TheAthleticNHL


Crosby not happy about this.
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8 mars à 0 h 22
#55
DoubleM24
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Modifié 8 mars à 0 h 57
Quoting: ricochetii
My first two thoughts:

1. Dubas tried to pressure teams into better offers by putting an early deadline on a deal and it backfired, reducing the competition.
2. Are GMs finally regaining their sanity and pushing back against rental prices?

With so many teams going all in the last couple of seasons and multiple GMs being faced with serious pick/prospect shortages, maybe the analysts are getting through with data about just how effective deadline additions are and what acceptable risk is with respect to cost/benefit.

Bad negotiating, buyer's market, or paradigm shift?


I think you're on to something there.

Carolina is always on the progressive side of roster management and it was my main concern in Pittsburgh working on a deal with them - Carolina was always going to win.

This feels like an Eric Tulsky deal with Don Waddell's name on it.
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8 mars à 0 h 23
#56
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A second if they dont make the final... wow.
8 mars à 0 h 35
#57
DoubleM24
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Modifié 8 mars à 0 h 56
For anyone wondering about the Carolina prospects - here are some write ups from Scott Walker of The Athletic.

Vasili Ponomaryov, C, 21 (Chicago Wolves)

After becoming a likable player who many believed was a better pro prospect than his good but not great production in the QMJHL indicated, Ponomaryov has impressed in the AHL over the last three seasons to outperform prospects of greater prior pedigree and become a call-up option for the Canes.

I’ve watched him play a lot over the years and he’s a hard player to dislike. He’s always on the puck, he’s got great hands, he can penalty kill, he passes the puck well and he opens up to make himself available offensively. While he’s not the biggest, strongest, fastest, or most talented kid, he understands how to play from A to B. He’s also stronger than you might think at a cursory glance and uses his body positioning to come up with his fair share of pucks. And then he also has skill — enough to deceive, pick apart schemes with the puck and make plays off of all of the retrievals he wins. I’m a fan. He has some intriguing qualities, he’s versatile and he plays the same way regardless of how much he’s playing or who he’s playing with. I’m not sure if he’ll be a full-time NHLer as opposed to a tweener, because it is a little hard to decipher what his role will be, but he showed well in his first call-up and has always been a well-liked player wherever he has gone.

Ville Koivunen, RW/LW, 20 (Kärpät)

Koivunen’s a highly entertaining and gifted winger who has been one of the more productive young players in Liiga (especially considering his June birthday) over the last three seasons (though after he impressed in the first two games of the canceled world juniors in Edmonton, he disappointed me in Halifax).

He can be a delight to watch with the puck on his stick when he’s playing confidently. He’s a crafty problem-solver whose game tilts toward offense (he’s got work to do to become a more reliable player defensively, although he can hang). He can manufacture offense in a lot of ways off of the perimeter, whether that’s playing pucks into space with the perfect weight or baiting defenders into reaches so that he can cut past them. He can carve the offensive zone up as a dual-threat scorer and passer. I’ve also seen him look quite effective taking pucks off the cycle to the interior (though not consistently), even though he’s more dangerous in open ice. I’ve seen him twist and turn away from good defenders. He has also had a bit of a growth spurt (he was listed at 5-foot-11 and 161 pounds in his draft year and he’s 6 feet and 172 pounds). I still see potential top-nine upside with the right development plan and some patience, even if his odds of meeting it are low to medium.

Cruz Lucius, RW, 19 (University of Wisconsin)

After battling a wrist injury in his draft year, Lucius came on strong late in it with 12 points in his final 10 games at the program on a dominant “third” line with captain Rutger McGroarty. In the two years since, he has built on that with back-to-back seasons as the Badgers’ leading scorer (about a point per game) as a freshman and sophomore.

Lucius is a patient playmaker who slows the game down and uses delays, lightly weighted passes and the attention he pulls into himself to create through layers for his linemates. Like his older brother Chaz, his skating (which pitchforks) is the primary concern with his projection. But he plays within the pace of play so well, problem solves really effectively and has a sneaky quick and accurate release that I wrote in his draft year I believed was going to produce greater goal totals than we’d seen to date (which we’ve seen more of in college). He will ultimately be defined, though, by his ability to continue to wait for plays to develop and stay cerebral as the speed of the level around him ramps up. If he can, he’ll be a complementary playmaking winger. He has never lacked confidence and decisiveness in his game.
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8 mars à 0 h 41
#58
hes dynamite
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atleast Dubas is warm and cozy surrounding himself with Sault Ste. Marie players
8 mars à 1 h 1
#59
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Quoting: doublem24
I think you're on to something there.

Carolina is always on the progressive side of roster management and it was my main concern in Pittsburgh working on a deal with them - Carolina was always going to win.

This feels like an Eric Tulsky deal with Don Waddell's name on it.


Tulsky, Waddell, and Darren Yorke are basically equal partners. There's no such thing as Tulsky controlling the strings. From all accounts, Carolina's front office setup is that Waddell runs the salary cap and trade negotiations, Yorke runs pro and amateur scouting, and Tulsky runs analytics. They collaborate equally.

I don't think that the trade was nearly the fleece that some Pittsburgh fans think it is. Koivunen has second-line upside if he hits. Ponomaryov is very likely going to be either a 3rd line center or a very good 4th line center in the NHL. Lucius is magic beans. Bunting is flippable for a 1st or 2nd round level return in 2 seasons. They did very well themselves.
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8 mars à 1 h 41
#60
DoubleM24
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Quoting: TheReelChuckFletcher
Tulsky, Waddell, and Darren Yorke are basically equal partners. There's no such thing as Tulsky controlling the strings. From all accounts, Carolina's front office setup is that Waddell runs the salary cap and trade negotiations, Yorke runs pro and amateur scouting, and Tulsky runs analytics. They collaborate equally.

I don't think that the trade was nearly the fleece that some Pittsburgh fans think it is. Koivunen has second-line upside if he hits. Ponomaryov is very likely going to be either a 3rd line center or a very good 4th line center in the NHL. Lucius is magic beans. Bunting is flippable for a 1st or 2nd round level return in 2 seasons. They did very well themselves.


Thanks for clarifying those details. I was unaware of their specific roles but completely agree - they collaborate really well.

The sentiment that they would win the deal is mostly based around the idea that Guentzal is the best player in the trade and Carolina would win the headlines for that reason; even if Pittsburgh got a solid return.

It'll probably take a bit to digest the full scope of the prospects that are coming in and let go of the sting of losing a long time favorite player.
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8 mars à 1 h 48
#61
JimmyPaek
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Quoting: doublem24
Thanks for clarifying those details. I was unaware of their specific roles but completely agree - they collaborate really well.

The sentiment that they would win the deal is mostly based around the idea that Guentzal is the best player in the trade and Carolina would win the headlines for that reason; even if Pittsburgh got a solid return.

It'll probably take a bit to digest the full scope of the prospects that are coming in and let go of the sting of losing a long time favorite player.


The trade gets a C grade for 2 reasons, no guaranteed 1st and taking back Bunting. Now the people who think we wanted Morrow simply don’t have a clue of what they’re talking about. We needed ELC forwards and even if we didn’t get Nadeau, we did get two who can be in this lineup next season .
8 mars à 1 h 52
#62
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Quoting: doublem24
Thanks for clarifying those details. I was unaware of their specific roles but completely agree - they collaborate really well.

The sentiment that they would win the deal is mostly based around the idea that Guentzal is the best player in the trade and Carolina would win the headlines for that reason; even if Pittsburgh got a solid return.

It'll probably take a bit to digest the full scope of the prospects that are coming in and let go of the sting of losing a long time favorite player.


Canes are sort of win-win whether they sign Guentzel or not. The trade clears $4.5M in cap space commitments over the next two seasons. They prefer to use that space to sign him, I'm sure, but the Canes have no trouble pivoting on any player if some team makes a crazy UFA bid on them. If it doesn't work out, it's just more cap space to potentially hand Jarvis and maybe Necas max-term contracts.
8 mars à 2 h 16
#63
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Well that was anti-climactic.
8 mars à 2 h 27
#64
Banni
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Quoting: jpsnow13
I'm amazed by all the people claiming a low 1st would have been better than 3x2nd + Bunting.

It's not a homerun, but since Pittsburgh has NO prospect pool, I understand why Dubas went for a lot more quantity of a slightly less quality, plus a replacement top 6 winger still under contract for 2 1/4 seasons.


The late 1st reputation around here.. is.. truly the equivalent of Gretzky/Mario in their heyday. After about pick 20, this draft is a tossup like every other year. Dubas did fine here. He got a bunch of needed assets to get younger. Building a winner takes a lot more luck than people are willing to admit, the worst you can do is not even try to switch it up. Dubas is trying to get things going in the right direction.
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8 mars à 2 h 28
#65
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Fair deal imho. Koivunen will be a good top six piece in Pittsburgh, Ponomarev for the bottom six in the future will help, and Lucius could be anything. Plus the picks and Bunting? It's a quantity offer, but people expecting Nadeau, Morrow, Nikishin... that was never happening.
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8 mars à 2 h 29
#66
Banni
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Quoting: V123
Buch


The Phil Kessel disrespect.
8 mars à 2 h 34
#67
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Pretty obvious win for the Hurricanes here...
8 mars à 2 h 49
#68
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Quoting: Caniac2000
Fair deal imho. Koivunen will be a good top six piece in Pittsburgh, Ponomarev for the bottom six in the future will help, and Lucius could be anything. Plus the picks and Bunting? It's a quantity offer, but people expecting Nadeau, Morrow, Nikishin... that was never happening.


I'll say Koivunen could be a good top six player. He'll either be a career KHLer or an NHL top-6er, with no in-between. True high-ceiling/low-floor prospect.
8 mars à 5 h 16
#69
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Quoting: TheReelChuckFletcher
I'll say Koivunen could be a good top six player. He'll either be a career KHLer or an NHL top-6er, with no in-between. True high-ceiling/low-floor prospect.


Would be interesting for a guy that's never played in the KHL to be a career KHLer...
8 mars à 6 h 30
#70
I like many teams
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You have to think the rangers offered a first for him. Wonder why that fell through.
Still an expensive rental either way and if carolina extends him they could be really scary.
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8 mars à 6 h 53
#71
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Modifié 8 mars à 7 h 4
Name a full time top 6 winger who’s more mid than Jake “Sidney Crosby is my full time center, I am his premium winger, and the best I can do is a point per game, please give me 8 years at 8 million dollars until I’m 38” Guentzel.

Is like…a monster haul for a guy who had one of the best opportunities in the entire nhl for years and ended up in the bottom half of his peers.

If you’re Sidney Crosby’s full time finisher for multiple years, by sheer luck and your quality of offensive icetime, you should have at least 1 whopper of a season, if not a few.
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8 mars à 6 h 55
#72
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Modifié 8 mars à 7 h 2. Raison: Fix
Bunting, a 2nd (possibly a 1st) seems about the going rate for a 29 year old player in an expiring contract.
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8 mars à 7 h 37
#73
sensonfire
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My benchmark for a fair deal on Guentzel was Bunting + Canes' 2024 1st.

Keeping in mind that Guentzel is a pending UFA while Bunting has term.



With Ty Smith having no trade value, this is what it comes down to:



Canes' 2024 1st


versus


Flyers' 2024 2nd that upgrades to Canes' 2024 1st if the Canes makes the Cup Final
Canes' 2024 5th if the Canes win the Cup
Vasili Ponomarev
Cruz Lucius
Ville Koivunen



IMO, this is worth more than the Canes' 2024 1st.

Pittsburgh wins the trade.
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8 mars à 7 h 49
#74
sensonfire
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BTW, Carolina's long standing policy is that they will never spend premium assets on a rental.



Until last night, Carolina's GM Don Waddell made that crystal clear.

I watched his interview with the Ray and Dregs Podcast on Youtube

I read the transcript to his interview with Pierre Lebrun for The Athletic.



Carolina's longstanding policy just got thrown out the window.

Because Guentzel is a pending UFA.

So, until proven otherwise, Guentzel is just a rental.



Don Waddell's nose is about as long as Pinocchio's right about now.

Shame on him.
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8 mars à 8 h 10
#75
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There is a chance Jake Guentzel will get more points for the remainder of the season, including playoffs, than every piece Pittsburgh got not named Michael Bunting will get in their entire career. To be fair, Ponomarev appears to be NHL ready, or at least very close, the rest I'm not so sure about.

It's quantity over quality.
 
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