20 juill. 2021
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<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>DrDinkiee</b></div><div>Looks like a few of us came here to reflect. Who’d of thought Carolina ends up… winning? Nahhh.</div></div>
Yeah, I wouldn’t give them that much credit. I don’t think anybody, including Carolina’s management, expected him to be waived out of the league after a season and a half. I think they believed he was good enough to play in the NHL, but probably not good enough to be the #1 goalie on a Stanley Cup team.
I think they were actually disappointed that they had to let him go. We know now that they had already decided to bring in somebody else for the #1 role, but they probably would have liked to have kept Nedeljkovic as a backup. After the season he’d just had though, there was a very real chance that they’d have to pay him upwards of $4M if he went to arbitration – too much for a backup. The experience with Nedeljkovic is probably what led them to extend Kochetkov early, before he’d had enough body of work to demand a salary that would be too much for a backup. He still might become a #1, but at $2M/yr they can afford to keep him as a backup, and if he ends up getting waived out in a year or two like Nedeljkovic, they can bury most of his cap hit.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>NHLfan10506</b></div><div>Now, in retrospect, we know this about Fox. But at the time, it seemed like a bad deal for Carolina. There were a couple of years where CAR seemed to amass value via draft, and then give it away via trades. Most their recent moves have been good (and unexpected like Patches, Burns, etc).</div></div>
My view of the Fox trade was not retrospective. Everything I said about it was known at the time. The reason the Canes were able to get his rights in the first place was that he refused to sign with Calgary. He was doing the same thing with Carolina, so they had to let him go. What we didn’t know at the time was that he was going to win the Norris trophy, so if anything the retrospective view should be more negative than the way we saw it at the time of the trade.
I agree with you about them seeming a little too willing to trade away good prospects that they had accumulated through the draft and developed in the AHL, but I don’t put Fox in that category because his was a unique situation. This tactic doesn’t seem to have cost them though. After getting rid of a lot of the key players from their AHL champion team in Charlotte, they rebuilt it pretty quickly and won another Calder Cup last year.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>fullblowncaniac90</b></div><div>These are the 5 major trades don waddell has made at the trade deadline. Notice how all the major assets have been moved for players with term. Skjei and Trocheck had the most significant assets traded for them (namely haula and the 2020 1st). Waddell's never traded top prospects or major pieces to the roster for anything at the deadline, especially not a rental. Most he's given for a rental has been depth players, mid round picks and lower tier prospects.
Now i don't disagree that the canes have a very solid prospect pool (specifically at C) and some could be moved at the deadline to strengthen the roster. But don't expect the canes to be willing to spend premium assets and higher ranking prospects in their system (morrow, drury, etc.) for rentals like horvat, that's simply not going to happen.
I think if anything, we make 1 or 2 smaller moves to strengthen our depth, think like the Domi trade at last years TDL or Vatanen a couple years ago.</div></div>
You’re probably right. They do seem to prefer to wait for the off-season to make major moves. This year could be different though, because despite their lofty position in the standings, they aren’t playing as well as the last couple of years, especially on special teams, and they have some holes in their lineup that they’ll need to fill if they want to have a good shot at the cup. I don’t think they’ll empty the cupboard to go all in for one year, but their moves the last couple of years seem to indicate that they’re confident that if they let some valuable assets go, they’ll be able to find a way to replace them. Maybe something like what the Rangers did last year bringing in guys like Copp and Vatrano. They’re not stars like Horvat, but they were more than just depth players – they had a major impact on the team’s success.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>carbonxe</b></div><div>I love coming back to this trade and wondering who the 9 people are who not only thought this wasn't one of the worst trades of all time, but thought Ottawa won the trade.</div></div>
I don’t think this ever looked like a good trade for Ottawa, especially with the draft picks included (I had forgotten about that – I remembered it as one-for-one), but if you look at what the two players had done up to that point, and the fact that Ottawa’s management still thought they had a chance to be a contender (apparently they were right about that, for one year), it doesn’t look as lopsided as it does today. Even so, when you consider his age and the upward trajectory that Zibanejad was on, it didn’t seem to make sense to let him go for a guy six years older. The only motivation I could think of for Ottawa was that Brassard was signed for 3 more years, but even if Zibanejad wanted out, they could have got two more years out of him before he could walk.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>mondo</b></div><div>Statistical Profile for the trade:
PK Subban played 3 seasons in Nashville. During the regular season, he played 211 games, scored 35 goals and provided 95 assists for 130 points. During the playoffs, he played 41 games, scored 7 goals and provided 17 assists for 24 points. His PTS/GP was 0.62 during the regular season and 0.59 during the playoffs. <a href="https://www.hockey-reference.com/about/point_shares.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">If you consider Point Shares</a>, PK Subban earned his team 22.4 over his three seasons, which is worth about 0.11 per game.
Shea Weber played 5 seasons in Montreal. During the regular season, he played 275 games, scored 58 goals and provided 88 assists for 146 points. During the playoffs, he played 38 games, scored 5 goals and provided 9 assists for 14 points. His PTS/GP was 0.53 during the regular season and 0.37 during the playoffs. Shea Weber earned his team 29.8 over his fiveseasons, which is worth about 0.11 per game.
Both players made it to the Stanley Cup final with their respective team, and both players were named to two NHL All-Star Games while playing for their respective teams. PK Subban made the 2nd All-Star NHL team in 2018. Shea Weber spent four years as captain of the Canadiens.
Think you can call this one even in retrospect.
Not going to consider the ROI for either player, but the trade tree on both sides of this deal is still active. For Nashville, Egor Afanasyev, Alexander Campbell, John Leonard, Adam Wilsby and San Jose's 2022 3rd round pick are linked to this trade. For Montreal, Evgeni Dadonov is.</div></div>
I agree that this was pretty much even in terms of what the two players did, so I’d call it a slight win for Montreal due to Weber’s lower cap hit. What surprised me was that their 4-year age difference turned out not to be a non-factor. Subban lasted only one year longer in the league than Weber, and you could argue that Weber actually put in more good years after the trade than Subban did.
I guess it’s too late for me to offer advice for your pool, but I would have echoed most of what the previous four contributors said anyway, so I’ll use this as an excuse to comment on what’s been happening so far after the first 8 games.
Overall, the team has not looked as good to me as they did most of last season, when they looked like a well-oiled machine, but they have still found a way to post the league’s third-best points percentage to date. Perhaps that’s because it seems that they’ve played a disproportionate number of weaker teams, but nobody is an easy win, so it’s still a decent result. In any case, they should get better.
The biggest question in my mind going into this season was whether Kotkaniemi could handle the 2C role. If you look at his stats – no goals and 2 assists in 8 games – it looks like the answer is no, but I don’t think he’s looked out of place, and his wingers are scoring. You can’t attribute that to power-play time, as only 2 of Necas’s 11 points have come on the power-play, so his line has been highly effective. The points should come for KK, but even if they don’t, I’d leave him there as long as the line continues to produce.
I’m more disappointed with Aho’s line. Aho has been great, as usual, but Teravainen is still looking for his first goal, and Jarvis has slowed down after a strong start. Teravainen should recover – he’s been too consistent over the years for this to last. I didn’t expect Jarvis to get as many points as the other two, but I wonder if he’s suffering a bit of sophomore regression. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Brind’Amour try Noesen in that spot, but I suspect that would be only temporary. I still think that’s where Jarvis belongs.
I’m happy with the bottom 6 forwards so far. Staal and Fast have been pretty much as expected. I didn’t expect Stastny to produce like he did last season because I figured he’d be in more of a shutdown role in Carolina, though Niederreiter got 24 goals playing with Staal and Fast last season, which is where Stastny started. Martinook is there now, and he has been more productive.
Burns has looked a bit erratic at times, but he’s still putting up good offensive numbers, so I guess he’s doing what he was brought in for, but I feel like overall offense from the defense is down, though I haven’t checked the numbers. I was disappointed to see Bear go, because I thought he could contribute more offensively than the three guys who’ve been playing on the third pair, but when you have four guys who all look like they can do the job, and one of them has a cap hit almost as much as the other three combined, that makes him seem like an unnecessary luxury.
The goalies have not been as consistent as they were last season. It may be too much to expect them to have another Jennings Trophy season, but they need to be better.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>CSStrowbridge</b></div><div>Can someone from Carolina explain why the Canes would make this trade? Are they in that much cap hell that they needed to shave $1.4 million this badly?</div></div>
They didn’t need the cap space now, but they would have needed it when Pacioretty comes off LTIR. Bear wasn’t playing, so keeping him on Carolina's NHL roster until then would not have increased his value, and might have stunted his development. (His 25, but I think he’s still developing.)
Rare loss for Carolina, but only because they had to retain salary on Bear. $400,000 is not a lot of cap hit, and they did get a positive return for him, but I think they would have been better off not to sign him this past summer. I couldn’t fault them for that though, because at that time it looked like he was going to be a regular on the third pair. They couldn’t know that Chatfield, who was below Bear on the depth chart last season, DeHaan, whom nobody wanted to offer a contract, and Coghlan were all going to slot in ahead of Bear. Once that happened, he wasn’t going to play unless two defensemen got hurt.
In the absence of any trade offers that didn’t require salary retention, I’d have been inclined to waive him. If somebody claimed him, that would have cleared his full cap hit. If nobody claimed him, they still could have made this trade with Vancouver, or they could have sent him to the minors so that at least he’d be playing while they waited for a better deal. But I guess they valued the 5th-round draft pick and getting rid of Pederson’s $750,000 salary (though he wasn’t affecting their cap hit) more than the $400,000 cap hit they retained.
Carolina has also made a lot of noise lately about being a preferred destination for players who have a choice of where they go. They probably want to show that if somebody doesn’t fit in, they’re not going to hold him back if there’s an NHL job for him somewhere else. It’ll be interesting to see if Bear still has that job when Vancouver’s injured defensemen come back, but for now I’m sure he’s just happy to be playing. I wish him luck.
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Claesson4Norris</b></div><div>I watched countless terrible hockey players in Ottawa the last five years or so, but nobody came even remotely close to Stepan in terms of bad vibes. The trade was obviously terrible from the start, but I can't remember ever seeing a player so openly miserable about getting a chance to mentor a budding star like Tim Stützle. Truly terrible vibes, and I hope he gets absolutely no success in the little bit of career he has left. I'm a Derek Stepan hater til I die</div></div>
His attitude seemed ok in Carolina last season, accepting of his 4th-line/13th forward role. The difference I guess was that he chose to go there. (He seems to have been a victim of the old rule that a team trading for a player had the option to void his no-trade clause, so he had no say in where Arizona could send him.) The Ottawa experience must have been a bit of a reality check for him too, realizing that he’s no longer a top-6, $6M forward. Apparently he agreed to come back on a PTO because he really wanted to stay in Carolina, even if he ends up back in the press box again, though with Lorentz gone to San Jose and Kotkaniemi promoted to the 2nd line, Stepan should get into more games this season. I thought it might have been better to give the 4C job to Jack Drury, but I guess they think he’ll benefit more from playing 20 minutes per game in the AHL than 10 in the NHL.