An argument supporting Monahans value

TAILLE DE LA FORMATION	PLAFOND SALARIAL	CAP HIT	EXCÉDENTS	BONIS	ESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
22	83 500 000 $	75 907 083 $	1 170 000 $	4 310 000 $	7 592 917 $

Ailier gauche	Centre	Ailier droit
Caufield, Cole 7 850 000 $7 850 000 $ AG, AD UFA - 8	Suzuki, Nick 7 875 000 $7 875 000 $ C UFA - 7	Gallagher, Brendan 6 500 000 $6 500 000 $ AD, AG M-NTC, NMC UFA - 4
Harvey-Pinard, Rafaël 1 100 000 $1 100 000 $ AG, AD RFA - 2		Anderson, Josh 5 500 000 $5 500 000 $ AD, AG M-NTC UFA - 4
Roy, Joshua 835 000 $835 000 $ (57 500 $$58K) AG, AD RFA - 3	Evans, Jake 1 700 000 $1 700 000 $ C UFA - 2	Armia, Joel 3 400 000 $3 400 000 $ AD, AG UFA - 2
Pezzetta, Michael 812 500 $812 500 $ AG, AD UFA - 2	Stephens, Mitchell 775 000 $775 000 $ C UFA - 1	Slafkovsky, Juraj 950 000 $950 000 $ (3 500 000 $$4M) AD, AG RFA - 2
		Ylönen, Jesse 775 000 $775 000 $ AD, AG RFA - 1

Défenseur gaucher	Défenseur droitier	Gardien de but
Matheson, Michael 4 875 000 $4 875 000 $ DG M-NTC UFA - 3	Savard, David 3 500 000 $3 500 000 $ DD UFA - 2	Allen, Jake 1 925 000 $1 925 000 $ G M-NTC UFA - 2
Harris, Jordan 1 400 000 $1 400 000 $ DG/DD RFA - 2	Barron, Justin 925 000 $925 000 $ (275 000 $$275K) DD RFA - 1	Montembeault, Samuel 1 000 000 $1 000 000 $ G UFA - 1
Struble, Jayden 867 500 $867 500 $ (57 500 $$58K) DG RFA - 2	Kovacevic, Johnathan 766 667 $766 667 $ DD UFA - 2	Primeau, Cayden 890 000 $890 000 $ G RFA - 2
Guhle, Kaiden 863 333 $863 333 $ (420 000 $$420K) DG/DD RFA - 2

20 janv. à 7 h 1

#1

habitantlecolon

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Be prepared on this site every habs players are garbage... to other team's fans

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20 janv. à 7 h 11

#2

KentMcNally

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Oh I know there are those people out there, but there are also reasonable fans who have legitimate conversations about their teams too.

I usually do not respond to the “My GM laughs at your GM, hangs up the phone and blocks the number” commentators, because what is the point in trying to argue with that type of mindset?

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20 janv. à 7 h 13

#3

Mike7856

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Think habs can maybe nab a 1st from someone, especially if someone loses a top 6 C between now and the deadline for an extended time. Short term and cheap vet C usually can get a decent return at deadline. At worst I’d say a 2nd and a prospect

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20 janv. à 7 h 15

#4

KentMcNally

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Quoting: Mike7856

Think habs can maybe nab a 1st from someone, especially if someone loses a top 6 C between now and the deadline for an extended time. Short term and cheap vet C usually can get a decent return at deadline. At worst I’d say a 2nd and a prospect

I think that is fair, but the prospect from the team has to be pretty decent, because the 2nd round pick from a playoff team is somewhere between 48 and 64, which is not a tremendous amount of value

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20 janv. à 7 h 26

#5

SupremeBone

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I think your argument comes up lacking in light of two details: 1.) it's based solely on offensive production meaning it comes up short when you try to compare him to Bergeron or even Compher (not saying Monahan is useless defensively, just that he isn't a particularly strong two-way C) and 2.) Monahan plays almost exclusively on PP1, which is something he wouldn't do on most contending teams (further hurting your argument based on offensive production). You may have more dimensions you could use to support your belief but, as it's laid out here, it's lacking.

I'm not saying it's impossible that he returns a 1st but I know that's a price I wouldn't pay- in general or for my team (EDM). If a team does, I imagine it'll be conditional based on that team reaching the conf. finals.

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20 janv. à 7 h 28

#6

Ste_Catherine_Street

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(Yes I am a Habs fan, but I'll try to be reasonable)
Look, I agree on the Habs he's a #2C.
On Colorado, Carolina, Boston he would definitely be a #2.
Winnipeg, I'm not sure.
That's why I don't think Winnipeg will move for him.
But the others could definitely use him as #2.
Now if we see his cap hit, production, F/O % and PP use, I really don't think 1x1st rounder is enough, especially when it could be 25-32 overall.
I think if Habs retain 50% and he plays for under 1M cap hit, they should be getting 1st rounder, 2nd rounder. Look at what St Louis got for Ryan O'Reilly (yes he's higher value), but they got 1,2,3 rounders for a much higher cap hit.

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20 janv. à 7 h 33

#7

Ste_Catherine_Street

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Quoting: SupremeBone

I think your argument comes up lacking in light of two details: 1.) it's based solely on offensive production meaning it comes up short when you try to compare him to Bergeron or even Compher (not saying Monahan is useless defensively, just that he isn't a particularly strong two-way C) and 2.) Monahan plays almost exclusively on PP1, which is something he wouldn't do on most contending teams (further hurting your argument based on offensive production). You may have more dimensions you could use to support your belief but, as it's laid out here, it's lacking.

I'm not saying it's impossible that he returns a 1st but I know that's a price I wouldn't pay- in general or for my team (EDM). If a team does, I imagine it'll be conditional based on that team reaching the conf. finals.

Your argument is flawed. We shouldn't consider his PP production because he wouldn't necessarily be on PP1?.... that makes no sense, "Let's not consider him as a PP option", but all teams want when they trade at the deadline are more options on the special teams. They're not going to trade for guys who can't provide on special teams.

I think it's Hands Down a given Habs get a 1st rounder. I don't even think it's enough to be fair.

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20 janv. à 7 h 34

#8

KentMcNally

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Quoting: SupremeBone

I think your argument comes up lacking in light of two details: 1.) it's based solely on offensive production meaning it comes up short when you try to compare him to Bergeron or even Compher (not saying Monahan is useless defensively, just that he isn't a particularly strong two-way C) and 2.) Monahan plays almost exclusively on PP1, which is something he wouldn't do on most contending teams (further hurting your argument based on offensive production). You may have more dimensions you could use to support your belief but, as it's laid out here, it's lacking.

I'm not saying it's impossible that he returns a 1st but I know that's a price I wouldn't pay- in general or for my team (EDM). If a team does, I imagine it'll be conditional based on that team reaching the conf. finals.

I am not saying he is as good as Bergeron by any means. I was trying to say (although I did not say it explicitly) is that he is a good 2nd line option because he provides secondary scoring. Winning faceoffs is also a key thing because in the playoffs teams want that guy who can win faceoffs if their first option guy gets kicked out of the circle late in close games.

I agree that he is probably not needed in Edmonton

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20 janv. à 7 h 59

#9

Andy_Dick

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Quoting: habitantlecolon

Be prepared on this site every habs players are garbage... to other team's fans

There's a dozen or so posters that make it their identity here despite being wrong over and over. Thankfully, they are easy to spot from a mile away with their bad faith arguments (Monahan got all his pts on the PP so they don't count lol) Some people need to go outside and breathe a little.

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20 janv. à 8 h 32

#10

Anus_McLeod

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Quoting: Ste_Catherine_Street

Your argument is flawed. We shouldn't consider his PP production because he wouldn't necessarily be on PP1?.... that makes no sense, "Let's not consider him as a PP option", but all teams want when they trade at the deadline are more options on the special teams. They're not going to trade for guys who can't provide on special teams.

I think it's Hands Down a given Habs get a 1st rounder. I don't even think it's enough to be fair.

When the Avs traded for Lehkonen, he had just 1 of his 29 points come on the PP. Monahan has almost half of his on the man advantage. That's a gigantic differentiating factor for a team that has numerous options for PP1 already (especially if Landeskog actually makes it back), and I can assume a big reason why they targeted Lehkonen (and likely won't target Monahan).

Additionally, a lot of things that Monahan is good at, Johansen is also good at. Take FO%, for instance. It's pretty much a wash. And 15 ES points for Monahan isn't so much better than RyJo's 11 that the Avs FO is salivating over the possibilities. Yes he plays for a worse team, but RyJo also hasn't had much to work with considering how much time Lehkonen, Nichushkin, and Landeskog have missed.

So I'll state the bottom line that I think most Avs fans are thinking: Monahan is probably better than RyJo, but he's not nearly enough of an upgrade to be worth paying a first. Some team might give that up, but it won't be Colorado. And throwing in another minor piece for a team that already has plenty of depth options isn't going to change that.

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20 janv. à 8 h 39

#11

GuyGuyGuy

Prime Primeau

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The worst thing is, every argument against him is that he is a pp merchant when he has more pts at 5v5 than on the powerplay playing with Gallagher, Anderson, Roy and Armia.

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20 janv. à 8 h 42

#12

Andy_Dick

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Quoting: Anus_McLeod

When the Avs traded for Lehkonen, he had just 1 of his 29 points come on the PP. Monahan has almost half of his on the man advantage. That's a gigantic differentiating factor for a team that has numerous options for PP1 already (especially if Landeskog actually makes it back), and I can assume a big reason why they targeted Lehkonen (and likely won't target Monahan).

Additionally, a lot of things that Monahan is good at, Johansen is also good at. Take FO%, for instance. It's pretty much a wash. And 15 ES points for Monahan isn't so much better than RyJo's 11 that the Avs FO is salivating over the possibilities. Yes he plays for a worse team, but RyJo also hasn't had much to work with considering how much time Lehkonen, Nichushkin, and Landeskog have missed.

So I'll state the bottom line that I think most Avs fans are thinking: Monahan is probably better than RyJo, but he's not nearly enough of an upgrade to be worth paying a first. Some team might give that up, but it won't be Colorado. And throwing in another minor piece for a team that already has plenty of depth options isn't going to change that.

I have watched the last few Avs games notably in Bsoton where Colorado couldnt even enter the offensive zone in the 3rd without Mackinnon or Makar bulldozing in. Ryjo is cooked! He had top PP opportunities early in the year and was taken off despite the injuries to Lehks and Nuke while Ryjo is exclusively used as a faceoff man which is just one of Monahan's attributes. And, Monahan fixture on the PP isnt a downside, he's been able to keep his spot unlike Ryjo. Colorado is playing their top guys 25-28 mins a night. Drouin ice time has been unreal. Another guy Avs fans said they didnt need last year yet hes given all the ice time.

Monahan's down low game, headiness and quick hands are simply not just better than Ryjo but a different league and the stats bear it out. But again, if you dont want him another contender will which will up the price and add to the return package. I dont even believe a 1st rounder is enough when those late picks have a less than 30% chance of even being an NHL regular. I much rather they extend Monahan to a 3-4 year contract when hes only 29 and still very productive unlike Ryjo.

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20 janv. à 8 h 44

#13

Ste_Catherine_Street

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Quoting: Anus_McLeod

When the Avs traded for Lehkonen, he had just 1 of his 29 points come on the PP. Monahan has almost half of his on the man advantage. That's a gigantic differentiating factor for a team that has numerous options for PP1 already (especially if Landeskog actually makes it back), and I can assume a big reason why they targeted Lehkonen (and likely won't target Monahan).

Additionally, a lot of things that Monahan is good at, Johansen is also good at. Take FO%, for instance. It's pretty much a wash. And 15 ES points for Monahan isn't so much better than RyJo's 11 that the Avs FO is salivating over the possibilities. Yes he plays for a worse team, but RyJo also hasn't had much to work with considering how much time Lehkonen, Nichushkin, and Landeskog have missed.

So I'll state the bottom line that I think most Avs fans are thinking: Monahan is probably better than RyJo, but he's not nearly enough of an upgrade to be worth paying a first. Some team might give that up, but it won't be Colorado. And throwing in another minor piece for a team that already has plenty of depth options isn't going to change that.

I think folks are overcomplicating ideas. If any team trades for him to be a #2C, at his cap hit he is definitely worth a 1st. Everything else, all the moving parts, is just smoke.
By the way, Lehkonen is a top penalty killer. Colorado made a great trade for him. Stanley cup winning goal no less

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20 janv. à 8 h 49

#14

my_name_is_Fil

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yeah monahan is worth a late first. if not this year, a futur one.

he will be among the most desireeable rentals in the entire nhl.

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20 janv. à 8 h 52

#15

Andy_Dick

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Quoting: my_name_is_Fil

yeah monahan is worth a late first. if not this year, a futur one.

he will be among the most desireeable rentals in the entire nhl.

Until more sellers get involved, I agree, Things could change from here to the TDL. But to completely ignore the scarcity dynamic when there is no center available at his AAV and production is very shortsighted. At this point, Monahan easily gets a late 1st plus return package. The TDL always has prices balloon when teams know they are only trading a late 1st instead of the unknown in the offseason. This draft is very shallow and there is little difference between a pick at 22 and 44 in the 2nd round. The CSS is simply throwing darts a lot of the time at that range.

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20 janv. à 8 h 57

#16

Anus_McLeod

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Quoting: Andy_Dick

I have watched the last few Avs games notably in Bsoton where Colorado couldnt even enter the offensive zone in the 3rd without Mackinnon or Makar bulldozing in. Ryjo is cooked! He had top PP opportunities early in the year and was taken off despite the injuries to Lehks and Nuke while Ryjo is exclusively used as a faceoff man which is just one of Monahan's attributes. And, Monahan fixture on the PP isnt a downside, he's been able to keep his spot unlike Ryjo. Colorado is playing their top guys 25-28 mins a night. Drouin ice time has been unreal. Another guy Avs fans said they didnt need last year yet hes given all the ice time.

Monahan's down low game, headiness and quick hands are simply not just better than Ryjo but a different league and the stats bear it out. But again, if you dont want him another contender will which will up the price and add to the return package. I dont even believe a 1st rounder is enough when those late picks have a less than 30% chance of even being an NHL regular. I much rather they extend Monahan to a 3-4 year contract when hes only 29 and still very productive unlike Ryjo.

If Colorado ends up paying a first for Monahan, which I absolutely do not think they will, then come find me and give me the old "I told you so." I can take it. But I truly don't think it will happen. 2nd and Olausson, with Montreal also taking RyJo, maybe. But not a first. I think they'll quickly look elsewhere if that's the ask.

RyJo losing PP1 time actually makes the point that the Avs don't need another option for that role. They have plenty.

With respect to Drouin, lots of Avs fans have wanted him for quite some time. Giving up assets for the guy last season (and being on the hook for over 2M AAV) is very different than tossing him 800k as a UFA. I don't think Habs fans are incorporating that differentiating factor in when presenting their argument.

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20 janv. à 9 h 2

#17

my_name_is_Fil

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Quoting: Andy_Dick

Until more sellers get involved, I agree, Things could change from here to the TDL. But to completely ignore the scarcity dynamic when there is no center available at his AAV and production is very shortsighted. At this point, Monahan easily gets a late 1st plus return package. The TDL always has prices balloon when teams know they are only trading a late 1st instead of the unknown in the offseason. This draft is very shallow and there is little difference between a pick at 22 and 44 in the 2nd round. The CSS is simply throwing darts a lot of the time at that range.

completely agree andrew richard.

i think people dont read enough. check out the last 5-10 years. trade dealine hauls are incredible.
so many examples... too many to list.

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20 janv. à 9 h 4

#18

turtlemountain

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Quoting: Anus_McLeod

If Colorado ends up paying a first for Monahan, which I absolutely do not think they will, then come find me and give me the old "I told you so." I can take it. But I truly don't think it will happen. 2nd and Olausson, with Montreal also taking RyJo, maybe. But not a first. I think they'll quickly look elsewhere if that's the ask.

RyJo losing PP1 time actually makes the point that the Avs don't need another option for that role. They have plenty.

With respect to Drouin, lots of Avs fans have wanted him for quite some time. Giving up assets for the guy last season (and being on the hook for over 2M AAV) is very different than tossing him 800k as a UFA. I don't think Habs fans are incorporating that differentiating factor in when presenting their argument.

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

The whole point in upgrading RyJo is that it hasn’t worked out as we hoped. He’s been a bad fit and as a result the top line is playing insane minutes.

I think it’s hilarious when Drouin comes up as a “gotcha” in these threads. He was making $5.5M last year. Even half retained, he was not worth $2.75M especially in a tough cap world.

I think most fans were consistent: no to Drouin if it means giving up picks and taking up $2.75M. Hell yeah if he takes a league minimum in the offseason. There’s almost no player I would say no to at Drouin’s current cap hit.

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20 janv. à 9 h 5

#19

Andy_Dick

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Quoting: Anus_McLeod

If Colorado ends up paying a first for Monahan, which I absolutely do not think they will, then come find me and give me the old "I told you so." I can take it. But I truly don't think it will happen. 2nd and Olausson, with Montreal also taking RyJo, maybe. But not a first. I think they'll quickly look elsewhere if that's the ask.

RyJo losing PP1 time actually makes the point that the Avs don't need another option for that role. They have plenty.

With respect to Drouin, lots of Avs fans have wanted him for quite some time. Giving up assets for the guy last season (and being on the hook for over 2M AAV) is very different than tossing him 800k as a UFA. I don't think Habs fans are incorporating that differentiating factor in when presenting their argument.

More than fair of a counter point with concerns to the Avs position but you have to take into account the Habs position. They have an effective top6 whom compliments their lineup and is a productive player whereas they have nothing guaranteed coming at center to fill that Monahan void. They are still in a position to resign Monahan as they did this past offseason. If they dont get their price then they sit and its a very fair price when accounting for scarcity alone around the league.
The habs will be negotiating with other teams and those same teams will also want to prevent other teams in acquiring Monahan whos 2.5 year younger than Ryjo and much cheaper AAV without the term. He will leveraged appropriately. If Hughes doesnt get a 1st under this climate, he will be eaten alive! The price is most certainly a 1st plus atm unless a lot more sellers come to the table with better pieces to give which is not the case rn.

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20 janv. à 9 h 6

#20

HockeyManiac95

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Quoting: GuyGuyGuy

The worst thing is, every argument against him is that he is a pp merchant when he has more pts at 5v5 than on the powerplay playing with Gallagher, Anderson, Roy and Armia.

Yes. For some time I agreed, but then I did some research. Monahan this year has 28 points. How many are 5v5? 15. The other 13 are on special teams (11 on PP, 2 on PK). So how many more 5v5 points does he have than PP? It comes out to a grand total of 4. That's it. As noted by others in this acgm, he will not have those kinds of PP minutes in Colorado. He just won't. This is not to discount those 11 points. Points are good. I'm just saying that one of his strengths would essentially be unusable.

And even if he does get some PP2 time (he sure as heck isn't getting PP1 time, how often do you think he'd score within 30 seconds or less (about the amount of time Colorado's PP2 is out)? I'd say not as often. Therefore, his scoring would decrease, which in turn decreases his value. I'm sure he could make up for it in ways (between Lehky/Drouin and Nuke), but again, he becomes less valuable in that way. Even that argument probably wouldn't work either cause we thought the same of RyJo at first.

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20 janv. à 9 h 8

#21

HockeyManiac95

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Quoting: turtlemountain

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

The whole point in upgrading RyJo is that it hasn’t worked out as we hoped. He’s been a bad fit and as a result the top line is playing insane minutes.

I think it’s hilarious when Drouin comes up as a “gotcha” in these threads. He was making $5.5M last year. Even half retained, he was not worth $2.75M especially in a tough cap world.

I think most fans were consistent: no to Drouin if it means giving up picks and taking up $2.75M. Hell yeah if he takes a league minimum in the offseason. There’s almost no player I would say no to at Drouin’s current cap hit.

100%

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20 janv. à 9 h 8

#22

Justafan79

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Modifié 20 janv. à 21 h 1

Big difference between the first three guys you mentioned and Monihan. Monihan is meh at best defensively.Kotkiniemi well above average defender, Bennett above average, Bergeron is going to have the Selke renamed after him.(I jest but you get my point there.)

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20 janv. à 9 h 13

#23

Celtics21

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Monahan’s defense and injury history is a concern. I don’t think you get a number 1 for him, but I could easily see a two with a conditions on it that could upgrade it or more likely add a 3rd if he hits. People saying the PP argument are simply pointing out that if you downgrade his PP opportunities, it will impact his scoring and point production which makes what he does with the new team less than the pace he is putting up in Montreal.

It’s not an unsound argument. I wouldn’t want my team to trade a #1 for him. I’d be OK with Merkulov and a 3rd, which is why I assume he’ll be going elsewhere

20 janv. à 9 h 15

#24

SupremeBone

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Quoting: Ste_Catherine_Street

Your argument is flawed. We shouldn't consider his PP production because he wouldn't necessarily be on PP1?.... that makes no sense, "Let's not consider him as a PP option", but all teams want when they trade at the deadline are more options on the special teams. They're not going to trade for guys who can't provide on special teams.

I think it's Hands Down a given Habs get a 1st rounder. I don't even think it's enough to be fair.

No, you seem to be arguing against your own misinterpretation. My point was that his current numbers were achieved under a condition that he very likely wouldn't be in on a contending team and, as such, an argument formed on the basis of his offensive production alone will be weak to counters. Mine was a critique of the strength of his argument more than a critique of his conclusion. I address his conclusion in a separate paragraph.

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20 janv. à 9 h 23

#25

KentMcNally

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Quoting: Celtics21

Monahan’s defense and injury history is a concern. I don’t think you get a number 1 for him, but I could easily see a two with a conditions on it that could upgrade it or more likely add a 3rd if he hits. People saying the PP argument are simply pointing out that if you downgrade his PP opportunities, it will impact his scoring and point production which makes what he does with the new team less than the pace he is putting up in Montreal.

It’s not an unsound argument. I wouldn’t want my team to trade a #1 for him. I’d be OK with Merkulov and a 3rd, which is why I assume he’ll be going elsewhere

But if you put him on a better team his 5 on 5 numbers improve too, He has played well 5 on 5 this year, he just does not have a lot of help.

Also, I would argue that the defensive metrics can be used many different ways. I could argue that your 2nd line players are not out on the ice for goal prevention. They are there for secondary offense to support the 1st line. I am not saying goal prevention is not important, but it can be something that you expect more so from your third and fourth lines.

As has been stated above, playoff bound teams also have to consider that there are not that many centers available that can play up and down the lineup like Monahan can.

Merkulov and a 2nd would probably work if Boston would do it.

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Repêchage	1e ronde	2e ronde	3e ronde	4e ronde	5e ronde	6e ronde	7e ronde
2024
2025
2026

Laissés de côté	Liste des blessés (IR)	Liste des blessés à long terme (LTIR)
	Dvorak, Christian 4 450 000 $4 450 000 $ C M-NTC UFA - 2	Price, Carey 10 500 000 $10 500 000 $ G NMC UFA - 3
	Dach, Kirby 3 362 500 $3 362 500 $ C, AD RFA - 3
	Pearson, Tanner 3 250 000 $3 250 000 $ AG UFA - 1
	Newhook, Alex 2 900 000 $2 900 000 $ C, AG RFA - 4
	Wideman, Chris 762 500 $762 500 $ DD UFA - 1

PARAMÈTRES D’AFFICHAGE

COTES DES PARIS

LANGUE

ARCHIVES

CBA

CALCS

OUTILS - FANTASY HOCKEY

OUTILS

JOUEURS

CONFÉRENCE DE L'OUEST

CONFÉRENCE DE L'EST

OUTILS INTERACTIFS

Forums/Armchair-GM

Description

Transactions

MTL

COL

MTL

CAR

MTL

BOS

MTL

WPG

Rachats de contrats

Transactions impliquant une retenue de salaire

Code d'intégration

Texte intégré

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