please stop only using points to evaluate players

Forums/Armchair-GM

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Créé par: JeffGorton

Équipe: 2023-24 Canadiens de Montréal

Date de création initiale: 19 nov. 2023

Publié: 19 nov. 2023

Mode - plafond salarial: Basique

Description

Jackets fans not realizing that Laine gets paid 8,3m for another 3 years. Has worse injury issues and is a defensive liability. If Anderson is a cap dump, then so it Laine.

Laine had 1 good season which was last year in overall 5v5 production. Take the 5 past seasons and Anderson have been better 5v5 overall. Laine is a powerplay merchant.

Now lets count the money owed. Anderson has 23m owed left (no signing bonus) in 4 years. Laine has 25m owed (4m in signing bonus) for 3 years left. So any deal involving the 2, Columbus saves money while not having to pay a signing bonus and gets a player for an extra year.

I havent even mentioned that Anderson actually forechecks, blocks shots, hits and has more takeaways than giveaways. This would also be the 2nd time Laine would be traded over "being lazy". Dude is 6'5 and Anderson has more hits this season than Laine's highest hit total in Columbus

Now this season, Anderson is just getting super unlucky. He has 5.4 expected goals and scored none of them. Laine has 1.5 and scored 2. Laine hasnt taken a High Danger shot yet and only has 2 medium shot danger attempts. Anderson has 6 high danger and 17 medium danger. And if you counter into shooting talent, Laine has score 0.1 goals more than expected and Anderson has scored 5.3 less goals than expected

So the anti anderson folks can call him a cap dump and whatnot, Laine is not much better if not worse. Points arent everything when evaluating players

Transactions

MTL

Laine, Patrik

CBJ

Anderson, Josh
Kidney, Riley
Choix de 2e ronde en 2025 (PIT)
Choix de 3e ronde en 2025 (VAN)

Détails additionnels:

Read description for explanation on Anderson vs Laine

Also cap would have to come back in any Laine trade. No one is gonna eat 8m for nothing, no matter how good the player is

MTL

Bourgault, Xavier
Campbell, Jack
Kulak, Brett
Choix de 1e ronde en 2024 (EDM)

EDM

MTL

Choix de 3e ronde en 2024 (NJD)

NJD

Montembeault, Samuel

Détails additionnels:

Devils need a goalie ASAP, yall stink

Rachats de contrats

Karl Alzner: 833 333 $

Transactions impliquant une retenue de salaire

Joel Edmundson: 1 750 000 $ (50%)
Jeff Petry: 2 343 750 $ (50%)

Repêchage	1e ronde	2e ronde	3e ronde	4e ronde	5e ronde	6e ronde	7e ronde
2024
2025
2026

FORMATION

VUE À LONG TERME

INTÉGRÉ

TEXTE INTÉGRÉ

TAILLE DE LA FORMATION	PLAFOND SALARIAL	CAP HIT	EXCÉDENTS	BONIS	ESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
22	83 500 000 $	82 867 916 $	1 170 000 $	710 000 $	632 084 $

Formation

Ailier gauche	Centre	Ailier droit
Harvey-Pinard, Rafaël 1 100 000 $1 100 000 $ AG, AD RFA - 2	Suzuki, Nick 7 875 000 $7 875 000 $ C UFA - 7	Laine, Patrik 8 700 000 $8 700 000 $ C, AD, AG M-NTC UFA - 3
Caufield, Cole 7 850 000 $7 850 000 $ AG, AD UFA - 8	Monahan, Sean 1 985 000 $1 985 000 $ (15 000 $$15K) C, AG, AD UFA - 1	Newhook, Alex 2 900 000 $2 900 000 $ C, AG RFA - 4
Pearson, Tanner 3 250 000 $3 250 000 $ AG UFA - 1	Dvorak, Christian 4 450 000 $4 450 000 $ C M-NTC UFA - 2	Gallagher, Brendan 6 500 000 $6 500 000 $ AD, AG M-NTC, NMC UFA - 4
Pezzetta, Michael 812 500 $812 500 $ AG, AD UFA - 2	Evans, Jake 1 700 000 $1 700 000 $ C UFA - 2	Ylönen, Jesse 775 000 $775 000 $ AD, AG RFA - 1

Défenseur gaucher	Défenseur droitier	Gardien de but
Matheson, Michael 4 875 000 $4 875 000 $ DG M-NTC UFA - 3	Lindström, Gustav 950 000 $950 000 $ DD RFA - 1	Campbell, Jack 5 000 000 $5 000 000 $ G M-NTC UFA - 4
Guhle, Kaiden 863 333 $863 333 $ (420 000 $$420K) DG/DD RFA - 2	Barron, Justin 925 000 $925 000 $ (275 000 $$275K) DD RFA - 1	Primeau, Cayden 890 000 $890 000 $ G RFA - 2
Kulak, Brett 2 750 000 $2 750 000 $ DG/DD UFA - 3	Kovacevic, Johnathan 766 667 $766 667 $ DD UFA - 2

Laissés de côté	Liste des blessés (IR)	Liste des blessés à long terme (LTIR)
Xhekaj, Arber 828 333 $828 333 $ DG/DD RFA - 1	Dach, Kirby 3 362 500 $3 362 500 $ C, AD RFA - 3	Price, Carey 10 500 000 $10 500 000 $ G NMC UFA - 3
Armia, Joel 3 400 000 $3 400 000 $ AD, AG UFA - 2	Wideman, Chris 762 500 $762 500 $ DD UFA - 1
	Savard, David 3 500 000 $3 500 000 $ DD UFA - 2

Unités spéciales

Avantage numérique 1
Caufield, C.		Monahan, S.		Suzuki, N.
	Laine, P.		Guhle, K.

Avantage numérique 2
Newhook, A.		Dvorak, C.		Pearson, T.
	Ylönen, J.		Matheson, M.

19 nov. 2023 à 20 h 46

MoSeider53

Future Norris guy

Rejoint: août 2022

Messages: 15,605

Mentions "j'aime": 8,625

Stop with the Anderson for Laine BS, Columbus has zero interest in bringing back Anderson. And those pieces alone aren't worth taking Anderson back let alone any value going to Columbus.

jpsnow13, Windjammer, audiodave and 2 others a aimé ceci.

19 nov. 2023 à 20 h 47

mv21227

Rejoint: juill. 2020

Messages: 10,193

Mentions "j'aime": 9,413

5v5 P/60 by season
23/24: Laine: 1.1 Anderson: 0.27
22/23: Laine: 2.26 Anderson: 1.63
21/22: Laine: 2.53 Anderson: 1.56
20/21: Laine: 1.19 Anderson: 1.69
19/20: Laine: 2.03 Anderson: 0.56
18/19: Laine: 1.35 Anderson: 1.74
17/18: Laine: 2 Anderson: 1.48
16/17: Laine: 2.32 Anderson: 1.79

5v5 points by season
23/24: Laine: 2 Anderson: 1
22/23: Laine: 30 Anderson: 25
21/22: Laine: 34 Anderson: 26
20/21: Laine: 13 Anderson: 20
19/20: Laine: 35 Anderson: 3
18/19: Laine: 24 Anderson: 33
17/18: Laine: 35 Anderson: 23
16/17: Laine: 40 Anderson: 27

Anderson is not a better 5v5 player at all, please research the facts before falsely stating that he is. While Laine isn’t a complete player, he’s far better than Anderson. Just because Anderson hits more and can skate fast doesn’t make him better when he’s awful offensively and defensively

audiodave a aimé ceci.

19 nov. 2023 à 20 h 49

JeffGorton

Démarrer sujet

Jeff Gorton

Rejoint: oct. 2020

Messages: 2,228

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Quoting: MoSeider53

Stop with the Anderson for Laine BS, Columbus has zero interest in bringing back Anderson. And those pieces alone aren't worth taking Anderson back let alone any value going to Columbus.

If Anderson is a cap dump then so is Laine. That price is the difference

19 nov. 2023 à 20 h 49

dk325

Dolzhenkov Is Coming

Rejoint: mars 2022

Messages: 3,651

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Said this elsewhere, I'd so much rather the Jackets retain 50% on Laine than have anything to do with the dumpster fire that is Josh Anderson's contract.

19 nov. 2023 à 20 h 53

GuyGuyGuy

Prime Primeau

Rejoint: avr. 2023

Messages: 5,480

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Habs aren’t trading Montembeault for a third lol. Especially of they trade Allen. Dude best season is better than Demko’s best season (excluding this year)

19 nov. 2023 à 20 h 55

JeffGorton

Démarrer sujet

Jeff Gorton

Rejoint: oct. 2020

Messages: 2,228

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Quoting: dk325

Said this elsewhere, I'd so much rather the Jackets retain 50% on Laine than have anything to do with the dumpster fire that is Josh Anderson's contract.

So you’d rather retain 4.35m for 3 years instead of getting more assets (Laine at 50% still doesn’t get Jackets a 1st, sorry he’s ass) and a player in which they could trade with 1 year left?

That’s called horrific asset management and now I know you are a biased fan. Columbus aren’t competing for the next 5 years, they stink. And Laine isn’t getting more than a 3rd and meh prospect even 50% retained

19 nov. 2023 à 20 h 56

mv21227

Rejoint: juill. 2020

Messages: 10,193

Mentions "j'aime": 9,413

Quoting: GuyGuyGuy

Habs aren’t trading Montembeault for a third lol. Especially of they trade Allen. Dude best season is better than Demko’s best season (excluding this year)

Demko in 21/22 was better than any Montembeault season (Montembeault is still good but Demko was elite in 21/22)

Fox_Czar_Cup a aimé ceci.

19 nov. 2023 à 20 h 56

dk325

Dolzhenkov Is Coming

Rejoint: mars 2022

Messages: 3,651

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Quoting: JeffGorton

Good, I'll take the 3rd and meh prospect. Anderson would take six 1sts to trade away. He's awful.

mv21227 et Fox_Czar_Cup a aimé ceci.

19 nov. 2023 à 20 h 58

JeffGorton

Démarrer sujet

Jeff Gorton

Rejoint: oct. 2020

Messages: 2,228

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Quoting: mv21227

As you said “Laine had 1 good season which was last year in overall 5v5 production. Take the 5 past seasons and Anderson have been better 5v5 overall.”

I proved that’s false

But you didn’t, there’s more than points to look at when evaluating players. If not, RNH is better than Crosby. See how stupid that sounds

19 nov. 2023 à 20 h 58

#10

mv21227

Rejoint: juill. 2020

Messages: 10,193

Mentions "j'aime": 9,413

Quoting: dk325

Good, I'll take the 3rd and meh prospect. Anderson would take six 1sts to trade away. He's awful.

But Anderson can skate fast and he hits!! That definitely wipes out the fact that he’s awful offensively and defensively and has a bottom 5-10 contract in the league! He’s worth multiple 1sts!!

dk325 et squashmaple a aimé ceci.

19 nov. 2023 à 21 h 1

#11

Windjammer

Rejoint: juill. 2020

Messages: 15,913

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No matter how lipstick you put on that pig. Anderson is one of the worst 2 or 3 players in the league on one of the worst 2 or 3 contracts in the league.

Fox_Czar_Cup a aimé ceci.

19 nov. 2023 à 21 h 3

#12

mv21227

Rejoint: juill. 2020

Messages: 10,193

Mentions "j'aime": 9,413

Quoting: JeffGorton

But you didn’t, there’s more than points to look at when evaluating players. If not, RNH is better than Crosby. See how stupid that sounds

So what exactly makes Anderson better at 5v5? His awful defensive play? His hitting ability? Because if so then Anderson is better than McDavid. See how stupid that sounds?

Fox_Czar_Cup a aimé ceci.

19 nov. 2023 à 21 h 9

#13

GuyGuyGuy

Prime Primeau

Rejoint: avr. 2023

Messages: 5,480

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Modifié 19 nov. 2023 à 21 h 40

Quoting: mv21227

Demko in 21/22 was better than any Montembeault season (Montembeault is still good but Demko was elite in 21/22)

And that is where you are wrong. In 21/22, Demko had 10,5 gsav above expected in 64 games. Last year, Monty had 11,8 gsav above expected in 40 games. Demko is an amazing goalie and definitely a top 10 goalie in the league, but apart from this season, Monty had better advanced stats

19 nov. 2023 à 21 h 12

#14

MoSeider53

Future Norris guy

Rejoint: août 2022

Messages: 15,605

Mentions "j'aime": 8,625

Quoting: JeffGorton

If Anderson is a cap dump then so is Laine. That price is the difference

Laine isn't leaving one bad team for another, I seriously doubt that Montreal is on his 21 team trade list.

19 nov. 2023 à 21 h 17

#15

JaredOfLondon

Rejoint: mai 2019

Messages: 19,749

Mentions "j'aime": 7,382

pretending points dont mean anything when they are scored on the power play is pretty funny. The reason 5v5 is used is because it is most often an indicator of continued production as power play points are volatile. Laine is, at the very least, a reliable power play generator on top of being a pretty decent 5v5 one and guys who score at a 30+ goal rate consistantly their entire career are infact, much more valuable than ones that score at a 20 goal rate. Then add in the fact that Laine is a significantly better play maker.
Is Laine worth his contract? Probably not, but he's closer to value than anderson has ever been

Fox_Czar_Cup a aimé ceci.

19 nov. 2023 à 21 h 46

#16

Campabee

Rejoint: nov. 2018

Messages: 15,554

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Quoting: mv21227

I think you are completely missing the point of the thread, he isn't saying Josh is better than Patrick (at least I hope he isn't). I think what he is saying is if you are just taking cap hits vs point production and calling Anderson a cap dump then the same thing can be said about Laine. Neither are producing very well right now but even though both are struggling it doesn't make either of them a cap dump. The OP's point is that you can't just call one player a cap dump and another player not when they both have similar 5v5 stats. You have to go all the way back to 17/18 to find a season where one player had more than 10 5 vs 5 points over the other, excluding of course the one season Anderson only played 26 games due to injury.

19 nov. 2023 à 21 h 59

#17

drambui

Rejoint: févr. 2022

Messages: 3,839

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''points arent everything''

lets be real, points are most things lol.

i think 99% of habs fan would trade anderson for laine.

one is more of a cap dump then the other it seems!

hits are are important for role players, not first line fowards.

Billy316 et Fox_Czar_Cup a aimé ceci.

19 nov. 2023 à 23 h 28

#18

dgibb10

I Love J Boqvist

Rejoint: janv. 2023

Messages: 12,010

Mentions "j'aime": 3,179

Quoting: GuyGuyGuy

Last year that 11.8 ranked Monty 13th (slightly above average starter)
demko ranked 9th in 20-21, 13th in 21-22, and is 1st right now.

3 years of quality play vs 1

20 nov. 2023 à 4 h 6

#19

Billy316

Jesus Christ Is King

Rejoint: mars 2017

Messages: 2,607

Mentions "j'aime": 744

I support what you're trying to say
I am an Anderson guy with his picture framed on my wall beside our SCF WCF title picture and Caufields 1st goal
But i'd say you picked the wrong person to compare values to as they're worlds apart.
Only thing they share is they're Power Forwards that Can Skate and on Every other level Laine's an All Star / Super Star and Andersons a Role Player/ Leader
Thats a Huuuuuuuuuge gap in Value if Anderson was achieving 100% up to his full Contract to the point he was seen at a Cap Value. . .

Anderson is Dustin Brown, Great value to exactly 1 team only and we should respect that Loyalty.
Gallagher on the other hand if we can keep Healthy the full year will have Trade Value going into next year as long as he doesnt slump when Monahan leaves at the TDL
But thats a debate for another time.

I can say nothing we have will satisfy CBJ Management or fans. At least not anything we're willing to give up anyways.
Roy i think would be the cheapest in terms of top moving pieces in the deal , that MTL could walk away with.
TBH i'd rather have Roy

Laine just dont make sense
Holloway, Turcotte and McBain are all smarter options to target
IF you want Top Shelf Laine level Star Power then all in on Zegras would set us up for a decade

20 nov. 2023 à 4 h 19

#20

Billy316

Jesus Christ Is King

Rejoint: mars 2017

Messages: 2,607

Mentions "j'aime": 744

Quoting: drambui

Yes and No
Making more then Suzuki for less Production
I mean Laine's got more Value but both are about 2m overpaid vs their on ice production or role playing.
I mean Andersons snake bit and one hell of a pole smoker this year but he'll eventually get some of those tips from in front of the net.
Really i think MSL needs to have the balls to put him with Pezz-Evans on 4th line and thats when he will start scoring again
Once he gets going he's a momentum player who has a lot of multi point nights. Some nights his focus is offense, sometimes its fighting for pucks and cycling them back before screening the goalie

20 nov. 2023 à 8 h 39

#21

Fox_Czar_Cup

Rejoint: avr. 2016

Messages: 7,996

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Quoting: GuyGuyGuy

Lol. One is a good nhl starter, the other hopes to stick as a backup

20 nov. 2023 à 18 h 26

#22

GuyGuyGuy

Prime Primeau

Rejoint: avr. 2023

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Quoting: Fox_Czar_Cup

Lol. One is a good nhl starter, the other hopes to stick as a backup

That isn’t what stats says, unless you are implying Demko isn’t better than a backup, which is insanely stupid

20 nov. 2023 à 18 h 59

#23

dgibb10

I Love J Boqvist

Rejoint: janv. 2023

Messages: 12,010

Mentions "j'aime": 3,179

Quoting: GuyGuyGuy

This year: demko by a mile
Last year: monty (demko injured)
21-22: Demko by a mile
20-21: demko by a mile, monty not even cracking the show
19-20: demko by a mile
18-19: Both bad, demko slightly better

Fox_Czar_Cup a aimé ceci.

20 nov. 2023 à 19 h 10

#24

GuyGuyGuy

Prime Primeau

Rejoint: avr. 2023

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Quoting: dgibb10

This year Demko is on another level so we are not gonna take those stats.
Monty’s best year >>>> Demko’s best (excluding the present one
Monty’s second best year <<<<<< Demko’s second best

Considering Montembeault only has 2 complete years, that is pretty good for a second year rookie

20 nov. 2023 à 23 h 34

#25

dgibb10

I Love J Boqvist

Rejoint: janv. 2023

Messages: 12,010

Mentions "j'aime": 3,179

Quoting: GuyGuyGuy

Montembault and Demko are literally both 27.

"If I take out this year where demko has been fantastic"

Ranking years:
1. Demko this year
2. Demko 21-22
3. Demko 20-21
4. Monty 22-23
5. Demko 22-23

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Forums/Armchair-GM