Idk we have seen full teardowns also work towards building something interesting. Buffalo's a pretty good example of that as now they got a very good young core in the works. Yes there has been some struggles but the more these youngsters grow and develop look out we may be seeing a potential Dynasty as BUF dcore has the potential to be terrifying once those guys get into prime territory

Rangers also did a semi big tear-down besides Zibanajad and Kreider and it also worked

Like they moved on from McDonagh, JTM, Hayes, Zuccarello, Skjei, Nash, etc sent their fans a letter saying look we plan to rebuild went out and got Panarin and Trocheck, traded for Fox, Trouba, etc and now look at them ECF

Took some time but it worked out nicely

Being in no mans land is something teams do not want to go through as it can cause the direction needed to be skewed and players hate it. They need to choose a direction and make the moves to go down it. IMO rebuild should be the plan and not just a subtle one.

NYR is kind of an outlier. Their talent was gained thru free agency and trades and not so much the draft via tanking.

Panarin - free agent
Trouba - trade
Fox - essentially free agent/trade
Trocheck - free agent
Lindgren - trade

Lafreniere and Kakko were the only "lottery picks" acquired during rebuild and Lafreniere was thru the "placeholder pick" which gave a playoff team the #1 overall pick after COVID so doesn't really count as a lottery pick acquired via "tanking"
Kakko - lottery pick from

Other key players drafted:
Schneider - draft (#19)
Chytil - draft (#21)
K. Miller - draft (#22)
Shesterkin - draft (4th rounder)

All of those draft picks and many of the free agent signings/trades occurred before the famous "letter"; basically it was the Trouba trade and the Trocheck signing that occurred after the letter. They didn't "tear it down" they retooled like LAK and Dallas did.

And Buffalo's is not a "success story" at all for a full teardown. They have drug their fans thru the muck for a decade + and still aren't a playoff team.

Wasnt really a retool though look who they moved

McDonagh, JTM, Hayes, Zuccarello, Pionk, Skjei, Nash lot of those were key guys. Thats a teardown

They moved them acquired assets to either spend elsewhere or draft.

Retool would have been like trading just 2 of those guys and keeping the rest building around them. Kreider and Zibanajad were the only ones from the OG group to stick around.

They basically in the end rebuilt but thanks to the stars aligning it went quicker than expected. But if it didnt they would probs just be entering the competitive scene now and not earlier than we all thought

Not yet but remember it takes time. Once they finally figure it out look out NHL

As they have some nice pieces, a good Dcore, just need to figure out the goaltending, coaching, and system structure they set

Cause their Dcore especially is coming together nicely

Dahlin
Power
Byram
Samuelsson

Are some nice pieces to build around. Just get the right RD and they set there

Oh sure no question they have some great talent; but they still don't have a "team". Also look at what it cost them in losing during that span: Jack Eichel, Sam Reinhart, Casey Mittelstadt, Linus Ullmark, I'm sure there are others that I can't think of off the top of my head. Who knows how many free-agents didn't go there because of their losing. Not to mention the fan apathy; lost ticket sales; merchandise revenue, etc.

NYR were an outlier because once they had a pulse free agents would fall over themselves to go there; biggest market, history, etc.

Sure but they replaced most of them with nice pieces to fill in other area's and losing Ullmark aint crazy considering his playoffs

Like if we look at the combined results of all trades

Kulich, Ostlund, Levi, Krebs, Tuch, Byram

Thats not bad.

Again though building a strong team takes time. TBL can attest to that along with WSH.

Buffalo has a nice young group going and once they finally get over the hump and get the other things sorted out league will be put on notice. Keep an eye on this offseason they may go for it

It's a fun discussion and I'm sure there is no absolutely "right" or "wrong" plan; they all have pro's and con's; IMO the full teardown is really damaging to brand/identity and fan engagement. Generally, players want to have an opportunity to contribute and a chance to play meaningful hockey (ie playoff chase and/or playoff games). Nashville has been able to successfully navigate moving out veterans for assets and shedding salary while staying in the playoff hunt. They won't "win" a franchise player thru the draft; but the odds of that happening are so rare that it doesn't make sense to do what San Jose did.

There isn't a clear definition of "retool" vs "rebuild" but I guess when I see elite veterans move out like NYR did and new elite veterans come in that is a "retool". A rebuild to me is moving out veterans and stockpiling youth and draft picks (ie trading out present for future).

Yep I like to follow them as well. We'll see what Ruff does with that group from a coaching/systems standpoint. They had really poor system or poor execution or both last year as it relates to team defense. They absolutely need a top 4 RHD that can lock down opponents too so we'll see what the GM can produce in a competitive market for that position.

I dont think Ruff's the answer should have went for someone a little more new school like Woodcroft

Now we got to wait for the offseason but they have the cap or assets to make a very big move if they so choose to speed up the competitive window to 2025

I think the narrative of Woodcroft's team being weak on D and the turnaround that occurred in Edmonton after he left; mirrored with the Sabres struggles in that area probably scared off Kevyn Adams from going down that road.

Well EDM did bring in a new defensive coach so I dont think thats on Woodcroft. If they had brought in that new defensive coach and kept Wood think they would have been fine

Kind of find it funny how so many Leaf fans are scared of doing a Marner trade

Its like we dont want change

Yes its risky among other things but what have we learned from watching these 4 players making lots of money together

It has not worked time for change and I think NSH is gearing up to go get him

Nashville just opened up a bunch of cap space I got a feeling

Yep and I think they gearing up to go get him

The question is will he or his agent or both be in agreement to go

To me if you tell him were not bringing you back next year I think that opens the door

I wonder if Marner would be down for joining Peterson in Vancouver. I also wonder if Lindholm would be. It was reported Vancouver was interested in flipping him with Boston and involving Guentzel.

Hronek and lindholm rights for marner.

Van does not really have anything of interest though or that they would want to give up for him

And that trade's way to risky as what if Lindholm goes yea I aint signing here I aint trading Marner for Hronek in a 1 for 1 especially with Hronek and his agents reportedly still sticking to their Sergechev ask

The 3 teams that rn make sense rn

1. NSH
2. SEA
3. OTT

I'm sticking w my cup picks since January

Dallas in 5

NYR in 6

Went 6-2 in RD1

3-1 in RD2

I wish STL would make that list. We’re a center short of a competitive roster, Kevin Hayes has 2 years left, and I don’t see anybody in our org that will displace the need to play Schenn at center for 2 more years. I dun like it. After 2 years we might have options but that’ll fill Hayes slot.

Thomas - Lindholm - Hayes - Dean/Alexandrov/Sundqvist. That’s reasonable.

Think of how gaping that hole is without him there. It’s so big…I like Kevin Hayes but …. Ya know. He isn’t the strongest 3C in the league…..

And our young grinders could develop well, ya never know, but you aren’t gonna prob get special team time from them.

Thomas is way above average. Kinda dirty to follow him up with nothing. I haven’t looked to see who’s available next, maybe waiting is the best move, idk.

everytime I go on the ACGM forum anymore a little piece of me dies

Was watching the NSH presser where Trots got asked about Marner

When you look at the expression and hear the mumbles the guy dodged the question without directly dodging it

For sure he and Brad had some early talks where they go is a ?

IMO if Marner goes its after July 1 when his bonus is paid

I dont see STL having interest in Marner nor wanting to pay him his contract ask

You don't like Dvorsky or don't think he is a center in the NHL?

I think in a best case he’d be ready for big boy actual top 6 center ice minutes at age 21-22, but perhaps even 1 year beyond that. He’s 18 rn. Kevin Hayes contract (2 more yrs) ends at an ideal time for Dvorskys development. Until then protected minutes, no defined high level role. One year of 3C then scoot up when ready.

I think a 3 year period of development, mix of wing and center, slowly increasing icetime, lots of protected minutes, is fairly reasonable expectation/hope considering he did take a single year of OHL development. Would mirror Robert Thomas’ path to real minutes, who id suggest had a leg up, since he had a full OHL development. 3 years of center with the London knights, one with hamilton is super valuable when considering the learning curve of the nhl. Plus Dvorsky is kinda lanky, kinda…just get that vibe from his highlights. I tend to assume they take an extra year cause they’re growing and stuff. Lotsa lanky late bloomers. (Parayko, Tage Thompson, etc).

We also have stenberg who’s should just consistently be a year behind Dvorsky, ideally Otto would slot into the 3C that Dvorksy is promoted out of. But then your top 9 includes 2 centers under 24. Kinda wack.

I’d prefer a scenario where a lindholm type filled 2C for 3-5 years, then moved back to 3C as age does what it does to him. Dvorsky can contribute throughout lineup as winger for 2 years, mixing center as available, take Hayes job at his end of contract, then swap with Lindholm if/when it makes sense. Stenberg would get less center ice time but this is how barbashev developed and that worked out well. Plus you plan all this then somebody breaks a leg, so erring on caution

The thing im concerned with going into next season for TOR is not what the team is gonna look like but goaltending

Woll's health has come into question and I just dont know if you can rely on him as the starter

The goalie market is meh this year for FA and considering this teams 4 year window say go trade for a guy like Saros who can play 40-50 games and help yah win