the offence becomes garbage other than the big 3

Its not garbage... definitely need a couple players to step up but I think they would and the defence is so much better

Why would Chicago do this? Murphy is better than Holl and I’ll take strome and the picks over Nylander he likes going to the corners and playing in the defensive end of the rink about as much as Drouin

you should really watch Nylander play hockey some time, it'll blow your mind

Lol, Nylander had 5 less goals last season than Strome has his entire career.

Failed.

holl was like 75-85% as good as murphy this year playing tougher minutes and makes half the money

I'd also take willy light years before I'd take strome at 3C

You do realize Dylan strome is one of the most one dimensional players in the league right? Bad skater, zero defensive motivation, and doesn’t take the body. I’ll gladly take nylander if it meant losing strome. In. A. Heartbeat.

straight up yes 3 picks no

Not a chance strome yields nylander straight up, but yes, I agree, definitely not with 3 picks attached either.

I think you're severely overrating the difference between Holl and Murphy (if Holl can replicate his past season that, is).

No.

Playing tougher minutes? Dude, you clearly don't watch the Hawks or Muprhy as that is purely a ignorant statement.

Holl needs a really good defensive pairing to be effective. In his own zone he is hot garbage. Murphy is a physical shut down guy, best defender on the Hawks team; one of the most underrated defensivemen in the league.

Murphy is worth a 1st, Strome a 1st and 3rd. So this deal is two 1sts, a 2nd, a 3rd, a 5th and 7th. Holl would be a 3rd pairing behind Boqvist and Mitchell to not block their development as they are the future 1st and 2nd liners so not much value to the Hawks unless they flip him.

(2) 1sts, 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 7th for Nylander is a lot.

Holl was literally the leafs #1 RD last year, he regularly played over 20 minutes a night against the teams best opposition. When muzzin was out in january/late february Holl was tasked with being our only shutdown dman, other than ceci

He had way more defensive zone starts than murphy as well, he was put through the meat grinder for us lol and still game out as a plus player with 18 points in his first full season

Holl let up so many goals due to being beaten, lost assignments, etc. I couldn't even begin to count. Without Muzzin he was totally exposed.

Being a plus player when he was on the ice with the Leafs top 6 isn't really a stat you can point to.

Murphy played with Keith, De Haan, Koekko, Carlsson and literally inflated every single one of their stats. Murphy is hands down the better player and Holl does not bring 85% of what Murphy does defensively, more like 70%

he ranks better in almost every advanced stat. Holl simply isn't as bad as you're painting him out to be lol.

He was good - he was so "exposed without muzzin" yet in the 11 game stretch without him in january he had 2 primary assists and 1 secondary, had a plus/minus of 0 playing 19 minutes a night. the team collectively outscored other teams 43-39, not exactly stellar

then in his second stint without muzzin for 6 games in feb/march, playing 21.5 minutes a night he had a goal/assist and was +2. The team struggled mightily and barely broke 500 with 14 GF and 13 GA

he went through the meat grinder and wasn't a total liability on the ice, especially not without muzzin, idk where that myth comes from.

Take the 6 game stretch after Muzzin's second injury: Ceci/Sandin in that same stretch were -1 with one point between the two of them, liljegren/rosen were -2 with 1 point between them, barrie/marincin were +- of 0 with a goal and 4 assists between them, and dermott holl were both +2 with a goal and 3 assists between them.

Holl was thrust into a #1 RD scenario on an injury riddled blueline and he treaded water, in no way was he garbage at all. He didn't have a supporting cast, the only other remotely competant dman with him was dermott. the fact he was able to play those insane minutes and come out of it as a plus player is remarkable

See, and there is your problem. You are quoting assists, goals, and not realizing he has the top 6 of Toronto when he's on the ice. We are talking about defensive guys, Murphy is far and away a better player. Just look at the TOI, murphy playing 10 games less and almost even says a lot about the workload difference. Look at Murphy on the ice short handed in 10 games less.

Now you're comparing Holl to Ceci/Sandin or Liljergren/rosen...come on man....that alone speaks volumes.

Go watch game rewinds and see how many goals Holl himself gave up from missing his guy in the defensive zone or simply getting beat on a rush.

I'll take Murphy every day of the week over Holl and it's really not close. Holl is a very solid 3rd liner (#5) on a good team, Murphy is a very solid 2nd liner on a good team. There is a big gap between a 2nd and 3rd liner generally speaking.

k just ignore all the advanced stats that show holl played better

regardless, if holl was such a liability on the ice, letting in disastrous goal after disastrous goal, how come he wasn't a minus? does it not say something that every other player on the team was a minus when he was the #1D? that would prob indicate he wasn't the problem. It was ceci, sandin/rosen, liljegren, barrie etc. letting in goals in those stretches without muzzin, not him, otherwise he wouldn't be a minus player, no?

he was a +13 being deployed primarily in the defensive zone all year, he was not use nearly as much in the offensive zone as his counter parts. he probably spent more time with the checking lines than he did the top 6, that role would've been reserved for a combination of rielly/ceci or rielly/barrie, dermott/barrie, rielly/dermott etc.

This is a pretty unsupported statement. Was he better with Muzzin? Sure; most players would be. But in situations where he was playing without him (i.e when the team was playing like garbage under Babcock or when Muzzin and Rielly were both injured), he performed pretty admirably. Not great by any means, but certainly not a liability. I don't think you'll ever catch anybody saying he's a superstar, but if he can continue his play from this past season then I'm not really concerned about him.

Those stats show Murphy was on the ice a lot more per game, including also short handed minutes, which negates your argument of playing tougher minutes.

When Holl is on the ice, most of the time he's playing with the big 6 of the Leafs who are possessing the puck more then not regardless of zone.

Holl being one of the top 2 defensive defenders on the Leafs is like being the the best male hockey player on a all girls team. Leafs defense is atrocious besides Muzzin. Leafs have so many offensive style defenders and with the powerhouse of the leafs forwards, the game is all about outscoring the opponent. When he was on the ice, Leafs would let a goal in but score 2 or 3; the luxury of being on the ice as a defender with the Leafs top 6. As such, Plus/Minus is about the worst stat to judge a defender you can look at.

Stick Holl with Dermott for example and see how he falls off a cliff. Holl does not do well away from the top 2 defensive players on the Leafs. He's a solid 3rd liner on a good team but not more then that.

again, holl didn't spend most of his ice time with the big 6, he was deployed primarly in the defensive zone, where he likely would've played a lot with the bottom 6

also, playing the most minutes out of any dman on your team for large stretches against elite competition constitutes the toughest minutes you can play. murphy probably played those as well. that doesn't mean holl didn't play any less tougher minutes.

also, the leafs defence simply wasn't atrocious last year, even with the injuries. despite missing rielly, muzzin, ceci (our best penalty killer), and lacking depth, we still ranked 16th in GA out of 31 NHL teams after we had our coaching change (and when the injury hits)

that's partly because holl and dermott were able to carry some of the load and play quite well. it still hurt losing those other guys, a lot, and our numbers dipped toward the end of the year, but it wasn't because of justin holl, it was because of rookies/AHL players we had shoved into our bottom pairs.

Toronto gives up the better players and adds picks. Unreal.

... just noticed the picks were going the other way. Faith in humanity restored.

dermott was actually pretty good for us compared to our other dmen (and the hawks' dmen)

this doesn't take into account his shift in minutes. i.e. from october-december he was a bottom pair guy, but there's no denying he and holl played really well when injuries struck, it was just the lack of depth or anybody else in the bottom 2 pairs that sunk the team defensively