these guys desperately need to tear it all the way down

Forums/Armchair-GM

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Créé par: Tintin

Équipe: 2023-24 Sharks de San Jose

Date de création initiale: 18 juin 2023

Publié: 20 juin 2023

Mode - plafond salarial: Basique

Description

I view the Sharks short-term future as among the bleakest in the league.
A previously super unimpressive prospect pool, that only started taking a healthy shape in getting Mukhammadulin and Okhotiuk in the Meier deal will keep this team among the worst in the league over the next 2-3 years even if they keep Karlsson and Couture around only to become the next iteration of the Vancouver Canucks once their contracts are all up.
4 bad-to-horrible contracts in Hertl, Karlsson, Couture and Vlasic and the dead cap Grier has already committed to this team completely dooms any chance of the Sharks making the playoffs for the next two seasons.

Given where the Sharks are now and where I think the current team will be in two years the Sharks should try and sell everything on the roster not nailed down to the floor retaining significant amounts on Karlsson and Couture.

If it were up to me, I'd sell everything (including Meier) on the Sharks roster not nailed down to the floor retaining 50% on Karlsson and Couture, tank like there's no tomorrow until the 25/26 season and then be setup for a decade of perennial contention.

At TDL 2024 the Sharks should do everything in their power to move Barabanov, Labanc and Lorentz out for additional futures.
There is a fair amount of depth in the Sharks prospect pool so in the last two months of the season there'll be ample time to try some of the guys listed in the taxi squad out.
There is a very decent chance that among the guys on the taxi squad are a handful of players of real use to a future contending Sharks team. The same can be said for a few guys I put on the active roster (Okhotiuk, Thrun, Peterson, Zetterlund etc).

Signatures de joueurs autonomes

LISTE DE RÉSERVE	ANS	CAP HIT
Lund, Cameron	3	950 000 $
Hävelid, Mattias	3	950 000 $
Young, Alex	3	950 000 $

RFA	ANS	CAP HIT
Annunen, Justus	1	874 125 $
Gregor, Noah	1	997 500 $
Gadjovich, Jonah	1	787 500 $
Kaut, Martin	1	874 125 $
Mäkiniemi, Eetu	1	840 000 $
Svechnikov, Evgeny	1	787 500 $
Peterson, Jacob	1	787 500 $
Zetterlund, Fabian	1	787 500 $

UFA		ANS	CAP HIT
Raanta, Antti		3	3 000 000 $

CRÉÉ	ANS	CAP HIT
Michkov, Matvei	3	950 000 $
Gulyayev, Mikhail	3	950 000 $
Mukhanov, Timur	3	950 000 $
But, Daniil	3	950 000 $

Transactions

SJS

Bourgault, Xavier
Ceci, Cody
Yamamoto, Kailer
Choix de 2e ronde en 2023 (EDM)
Choix de 1e ronde en 2024 (EDM)
Choix de 1e ronde en 2025 (EDM)

Détails additionnels:

2 1sts , a B level prospect in Bourgault and auxiliary draft capital accumulation should be more than fair for EK65 at 40% retention for 4 years as well as taking on 6.3m in unwanted cap (Yams + Ceci). That's what I think anyway.

EDM

Karlsson, Erik (4 500 000 $ retained)
Choix de 3e ronde en 2023 (CAR)
Choix de 4e ronde en 2025 (WPG)

SJS

Annunen, Justus [Droits de RFA]
Foudy, Jean-Luc
Choix de 1e ronde en 2023 (COL)
Choix de 4e ronde en 2024 (COL)

COL

Couture, Logan (3 000 000 $ retained)

SJS

Choix de 6e ronde en 2024 (COL)

Détails additionnels:

any late rd pick would do

COL

Simek, Radim

Détails additionnels:

To any team in need of defensive depth

SJS

Choix de 5e ronde en 2025 (COL)

Détails additionnels:

any late rd pick would do

COL

Gadjovich, Jonah

Détails additionnels:

To any team in need of cheap forward depth

SJS

Choix de 5e ronde en 2023 (COL)

Détails additionnels:

any late rd pick would do

COL

MacDonald, Jacob

Détails additionnels:

To any team in need of defensive depth

SJS

Mantha, Anthony
Choix de 2e ronde en 2023 (WSH)
Choix de 2e ronde en 2025 (WSH)

WSH

Barabanov, Alexander

SJS

Bailey, Josh
Choix de 2e ronde en 2023 (NYI)
Choix de 2e ronde en 2024 (NYI)

NYI

Zetterlund, Fabian
Choix de 4e ronde en 2024 (VGK)

Rachats de contrats

Martin Jones: 2 916 667 $
Rūdolfs Balcers: 308 334 $

Transactions impliquant une retenue de salaire

Brent Burns: 2 720 000 $ (34%)
Erik Karlsson: 4 500 000 $ (45%)
Logan Couture: 3 000 000 $ (37.5%)

Repêchage	1e ronde	2e ronde	3e ronde	4e ronde	5e ronde	6e ronde	7e ronde
2023
2024
2025

FORMATION

VUE À LONG TERME

INTÉGRÉ

TEXTE INTÉGRÉ

TAILLE DE LA FORMATION	PLAFOND SALARIAL	CAP HIT	EXCÉDENTS	BONIS	ESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
23	83 500 000 $	69 867 460 $	25 000 $	1 545 000 $	13 632 540 $

Ailier gauche	Centre	Ailier droit
Eklund, William 863 333 $863 333 $ (850 000 $$850K) AG RFA - 3	Hertl, Tomas 6 750 000 $6 750 000 $ C NMC UFA - 7	Labanc, Kevin 4 725 000 $4 725 000 $ AD, AG UFA - 1
Mantha, Anthony 2 850 000 $2 850 000 $ AG, AD UFA - 1	Bordeleau, Thomas 916 667 $916 667 $ C, AG RFA - 1	Yamamoto, Kailer 1 500 000 $1 500 000 $ AD RFA - 1
Peterson, Jacob 787 500 $787 500 $ AG, C RFA - 1	Sturm, Nico 2 000 000 $2 000 000 $ C UFA - 2	Bailey, Josh 5 000 000 $5 000 000 $ AD, AG, C UFA - 1
Gregor, Noah 997 500 $997 500 $ AG, AD RFA - 1	Lorentz, Steven 1 050 000 $1 050 000 $ C, AG, AD UFA - 1	Kunin, Luke 2 750 000 $2 750 000 $ AD, C RFA - 1

Défenseur gaucher	Défenseur droitier	Gardien de but
Vlasic, Marc-Édouard 7 000 000 $7 000 000 $ DG/DD M-NTC UFA - 3	Benning, Matthew 1 250 000 $1 250 000 $ DD UFA - 3	Raanta, Antti 3 000 000 $3 000 000 $ G UFA - 1
Ferraro, Mario 3 250 000 $3 250 000 $ DG UFA - 3	Ceci, Cody 3 250 000 $3 250 000 $ DD UFA - 2	Kähkönen, Kaapo 2 750 000 $2 750 000 $ G UFA - 1
Okhotiuk, Nikita 789 167 $789 167 $ (82 500 $$82K) DG RFA - 1	Mukhamadullin, Shakir 894 167 $894 167 $ (400 000 $$400K) DG RFA - 2

Laissés de côté	Liste des blessés (IR)	Liste des blessés à long terme (LTIR)
Svechnikov, Evgeny 787 500 $787 500 $ AG, AD UFA		But, Daniil 950 000 $950 000 $
Kaut, Martin 874 125 $874 125 $ AD RFA		Mukhanov, Timur 950 000 $950 000 $
Thrun, Henry 912 500 $912 500 $ (212 500 $$212K) DG RFA - 1		Michkov, Matvei 950 000 $950 000 $
		Gulyayev, Mikhail 950 000 $950 000 $

Équipe de réserve
Bourgault, Xavier 925 000 $925 000 $ (0 $$00 $$0) (250 000 $$250K) AD RFA - 2
Gushchin, Daniil 828 333 $828 333 $ (0 $$00 $$0) (82 500 $$82K) AG RFA - 2
Robins, Tristen 797 500 $797 500 $ (0 $$00 $$0) (57 500 $$58K) C RFA - 2
Foudy, Jean-Luc 847 500 $847 500 $ (0 $$00 $$0) (57 500 $$58K) C RFA - 2
Lund, Cameron 950 000 $950 000 $ (0 $$00 $$0) C RFA
Young, Alex 950 000 $950 000 $ (0 $$00 $$0) C RFA
Bystedt, Filip 950 000 $950 000 $ (0 $$00 $$0) C RFA - 4
Wiesblatt, Ozzy 835 833 $835 833 $ (0 $$00 $$0) AD RFA - 2
Coe, Brandon 850 833 $850 833 $ (0 $$00 $$0) (57 500 $$58K) AD RFA - 1
Lindblom, Oskar 2 500 000 $2 500 000 $ (1 350 000 $$1M1 350 000 $$1M) AG UFA - 1
Knyzhov, Nikolai 1 250 000 $1 250 000 $ (100 000 $$100K100 000 $$100K) DG/DD UFA - 2
Pulli, Valtteri 950 000 $950 000 $ (0 $$00 $$0) DG RFA - 2
Hävelid, Mattias 950 000 $950 000 $ (0 $$00 $$0) DD RFA
Laroque, Gannon 836 667 $836 667 $ (0 $$00 $$0) (57 500 $$58K) DD RFA - 3
Kniazev, Artemi 789 167 $789 167 $ (0 $$00 $$0) (82 500 $$82K) DG RFA - 1
Mäkiniemi, Eetu 840 000 $840 000 $ (0 $$00 $$0) G UFA - 1
Annunen, Justus 874 125 $874 125 $ (0 $$00 $$0) G RFA - 1
Chrona, Magnus 867 500 $867 500 $ (0 $$00 $$0) (57 500 $$58K) G RFA - 2
Romanov, Georgi 910 000 $910 000 $ (0 $$00 $$0) (80 000 $$80K) G RFA - 2

20 juin 2023 à 5 h 20

Artman91

Rejoint: mars 2021

Messages: 895

Mentions "j'aime": 288

I don’t see the Oilers making a run at Karlsson. Edmonton already lacks draft picks and yet they have to give a second plus two first and a prospect. Karlsson isn’t guaranteeing them a cup and they sacrifice a good chunk of their future.

CD282 a aimé ceci.

20 juin 2023 à 5 h 45

Tintin

Démarrer sujet

do not Devil my ass

Rejoint: sept. 2020

Messages: 4,936

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Quoting: Artman91

For the Oilers that future should mean nothing compared to giving their current McDavid / Draisaitl-led core the best possible chance of a cup in the next two years.
I see no chance for this Oilers team to win a cup after 2026, if they can burn futures like those picks and Bourgault in exchange for maximizing chances of winning in this 3 year window they should 100% do that.
If there's a more optimal way to achieve that than trading for EK65 I'm all ears, but this Oilers team is on the clock and they really need to hurry up to not waste having Drai and McDavid at a combined 21m.

20 juin 2023 à 5 h 48

TJTwolf

Rejoint: janv. 2017

Messages: 9,768

Mentions "j'aime": 4,641

Avs decline. Firstly they're not likely trading Annunen as he's being developed as their goalie of the future. Secondly even with retention that contract won't age well. Thirdly that 1st round pick has too much value to the Avs and likely only gets moved for a 2C that can be a part of their plans at a decent level for longer.

M96N29 a aimé ceci.

20 juin 2023 à 6 h 31

Tintin

Démarrer sujet

do not Devil my ass

Rejoint: sept. 2020

Messages: 4,936

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Quoting: TJTwolf

Couture is still fairly good, would be a way better 2C with the Avs than guys like Hayes or Kuznetsov.
I hear you on the pick and Annunen stuff but Couture at 5m should be worth it for a team like the Avs given the lack of viable options out there.
Screenshot-2023-04-03-at-1.05.52-PM-1536x964.png

Screenshot-2023-04-03-at-1.05.52-PM-1536x964.png

Quoting: Blacktown

Yes lets just ruin Bordeleau’s development by making him replace the captain on the second line thats super smart. You clearly know **** all about the Sharks organizational chart. One of those “BLOW IT UP” guys. “TRADE EVERYWON” we need more GPALZ.

Go back to bed before your mom gets mad at you for staying up to late kiddo and lay off the crackpipe. ****in dim witted daft kunt.

You seem like a well-balanced and reasonable individual.
Wishing you a wonderful Tuesday wherever you reside.

justaBoss a aimé ceci.

20 juin 2023 à 6 h 41

GMBL

Rejoint: mai 2022

Messages: 9,007

Mentions "j'aime": 3,491

If I'm the Sharks I'm signing Kallgren and running a Kahkonen-Kallgren tandem, that could end up really bad but they probably should be trying to tank.

20 juin 2023 à 7 h 26

Tintin

Démarrer sujet

do not Devil my ass

Rejoint: sept. 2020

Messages: 4,936

Mentions "j'aime": 4,279

Quoting: GMBL

If I'm the Sharks I'm signing Kallgren and running a Kahkonen-Kallgren tandem, that could end up really bad but they probably should be trying to tank.

They should 100% be tanking but I think there's merit to the idea of not having the worst possible goaltending imaginable when doing so.
It'd be good for the guys to have some confidence in Raanta being able to bail them out once or twice for each game he dresses in.

GMBL a aimé ceci.

20 juin 2023 à 7 h 35

GMBL

Rejoint: mai 2022

Messages: 9,007

Mentions "j'aime": 3,491

Quoting: Tintin

That's fair but I'm guessing that both Kallgren and Kahkonen will have some good games while others are bad. Kallgren especially, in his time with Toronto he had either really great games or not-so-good games, so he might not have great games with a weaker defense but guessing he still has some good ones. Perhaps, they should run with 3-goalies just in case they are doing too bad or too good, or from the start try passing Kallgren through waivers.

20 juin 2023 à 7 h 41

Tintin

Démarrer sujet

do not Devil my ass

Rejoint: sept. 2020

Messages: 4,936

Mentions "j'aime": 4,279

Quoting: GMBL

I actually like Källgren a fair bit and wouldn't be surprised if he could prove to hold down a regular backup job somewhere in the league.
The Sharks do have two goalies with interesting upside in Mäkiniemi and Chrona (and I traded for Annunen here also), not sure if there's a place for Källgren in this AGM anyway.
I wonder if Källgren doesn't end up going back to the Leafs as their #3.

GMBL a aimé ceci.

20 juin 2023 à 7 h 56

exo2769

Rejoint: juill. 2015

Messages: 15,865

Mentions "j'aime": 10,119

I'm not a Sharks fan, but do agree with your outlook on this organization. They do need to tear it down and get whatever they can for their players. Use all 3 retention slots and retain 50%. Get younger and develop from within.

Tintin a aimé ceci.

20 juin 2023 à 9 h 14

#10

NMAvsFan

Representing the 505

Rejoint: sept. 2020

Messages: 4,540

Mentions "j'aime": 3,720

Quoting: Tintin

This is a tough one for me. Couture has definitely been productive (although not $8M productive) but nearly every player's mid-30's show a steady decline in production so, while they may get a year or two of acceptable play, the last few years could see them back in the same place of looking for a top-six player; for every Joe Pavelski that manages to defy time, there are dozens of other players that just wither away. According to that card you posted, he's already slightly overpaid and he isn't strong defensively, but, in a 2nd line role at $5M maybe he excels and is worth it if he can be steady and reliable.

Like I said, his age is the biggest barrier; he'll be 38(!) at the end of that deal (seriously, what was Doug Wilson thinking?) so he doesn't exactly fit the Avs window all that well. Really, the best fit for the Avs would be Hertl but he inexplicably signed up for a lengthy rebuild (what was HE thinking?) so, unless he can be talked into waiving for the Avs, this is probably a polite, "No, thank you" from the Avs although it is tempting.

Tintin et M96N29 a aimé ceci.

20 juin 2023 à 9 h 34

#11

swissmontana

Rejoint: mai 2023

Messages: 967

Mentions "j'aime": 1,143

Quoting: Tintin

I agree he's a better option than Kuzy or Hayes, but I think the concern for the Avs is how quick the decline can happen for a player at his age and how few options they would have to move him if that happened. RoR at $5mil remains a safer option, just because of the age difference.

I wouldn't be mad if it happened, though. Couture was still great last year and if he can give the Avs 2 good years and a cup, no one cares about what happened after

Tintin a aimé ceci.

20 juin 2023 à 10 h 9

#12

glarson17

Rejoint: juin 2019

Messages: 8,318

Mentions "j'aime": 3,724

You complain about the dead cap…then commit to paying $30 MILLION to have two guys play elsewhere…

20 juin 2023 à 10 h 16

#13

Tintin

Démarrer sujet

do not Devil my ass

Rejoint: sept. 2020

Messages: 4,936

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Quoting: glarson17

You complain about the dead cap…then commit to paying $30 MILLION to have two guys play elsewhere…

Well, there's a significant difference between wasting EK65's and Couture's value on a Sharks roster with a ton of dead cap already as it will keep the Sharks from not being competitive in that timeframe while also foregoing the assets gained from trading those two guys away.
Much better to lean into an already terrible situation and create more dead cap if it can be turned into additional futures, as I suggest the Sharks should do in this AGM.
I thought this was a fairly straight-forward point to grasp but I guess not...

20 juin 2023 à 10 h 18

#14

SJS2212

Rejoint: juin 2018

Messages: 422

Mentions "j'aime": 226

$9M a year in dead cap through 2026-27 and being devoid of all retention slots for future moves the next 2 seasons is likely a non-starter. Having to retain on Karlsson is fine. Retaining $3M on Couture is unnecessary with the cap increasing next year. Whoever would trade for him simply just needs to make it work this year with sending a short-term bad contract and then they're on their own for 2024-25 when the cap starts to bounce back.

glarson17 a aimé ceci.

20 juin 2023 à 10 h 22

#15

glarson17

Rejoint: juin 2019

Messages: 8,318

Mentions "j'aime": 3,724

Quoting: Tintin

Nobody is having all their retention slots filled for years on end. Nobody is retaining all that money plus what they already have on the books. Yes they should trade them but take a smaller contract back in the process so they at least get a player

20 juin 2023 à 10 h 29

#16

Tintin

Démarrer sujet

do not Devil my ass

Rejoint: sept. 2020

Messages: 4,936

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Quoting: SJS2212

There a are a few reasonable points here.
Regarding the retention slots, yeah it's not ideal but if retaining on Karlsson and Couture are the only ways to make them tradeable then I should think it is more important to use them here instead of doing what exactly? Siphoning out a 3rd rd pick in some TDL trade via 3rd party retention? Squeezing more value out of a potential Ferraro trade in the following season? Use the retention slots now, I think it's more optimal to do that given the circumstances. Burns's retention slot frees up in 2 years anyway.

GSVA seem to suggest that Couture doesn't hold value at 8m, but at 5m he holds a fair bit of value.
I think it would be very difficult to move Couture's contract for a worthwhile return without retaining, especially given his very restrictive NTC.

I settled on trading Couture to Colorado cus they have a clear need for a good 2C for the next 2-3 years, and Couture being more likely to waive (or not have the Avs on his no-trade list) for Colorado as they'll likely be contending with him in the lineup.
But I couldn't identify a bad contract on the Avs to take back, they seem to run a rather tight ship.
If you have a suggestion for some other trade partner that might make more sense and have a bad contract to send back then I'm all ears.

Quoting: glarson17

See above, think it speaks to your point.

20 juin 2023 à 11 h 31

#17

matthias893

Rejoint: avr. 2023

Messages: 352

Mentions "j'aime": 135

Not sure if its been mentioned regarding retention here, but you have two deals that both involve retention and 2023 draft picks. The Sharks currently only have 1 retention slot available and to my knowledge won't get a 2nd until after Timo Meier's current contract expires on July 1st.

Tintin a aimé ceci.

20 juin 2023 à 11 h 36

#18

Tintin

Démarrer sujet

do not Devil my ass

Rejoint: sept. 2020

Messages: 4,936

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Quoting: matthias893

Damn that's an amazing point, great find.
I suppose one of the deals would have to go down no sooner than July 1st meaning the picks would have to transfer to the 2024 draft of that trade.

matthias893 a aimé ceci.

20 juin 2023 à 12 h 53

#19

jakdonaghy

Rejoint: juin 2018

Messages: 379

Mentions "j'aime": 93

Lifelong Sharks fan here. Obviously doing all of these trades is not possible, but hopefully some are. Getting as many draft picks and young prospects essential. Next 2-3 years will be rough for Sharks and also ideal for rebuild.

Similarly to how Sharks traded Burns as a courtesy to give him a chance to win it only seems right to do the same for Couture AND he should have fair value if a good portion of his contract is retained. He is a playoff stud, consistent, great PK. Retain 50% of his contract to max out return and send him to a contender!!!!!

Tintin a aimé ceci.

20 juin 2023 à 13 h 17

#20

CD282

Rejoint: mars 2017

Messages: 24,173

Mentions "j'aime": 7,792

Modifié 20 juin 2023 à 17 h 9

Quoting: Artman91

Plus they don't have the cap space. This deal has them taking on more than $1M in extra cap and they now need to replace Yamamoto on the roster. Not a chance they can do that with an $83.5M limit.

Besides, Karlsson just isn't worth $7M to them when they already have Bouchard on the roster.

Artman91 a aimé ceci.

20 juin 2023 à 18 h 56

#21

TJTwolf

Rejoint: janv. 2017

Messages: 9,768

Mentions "j'aime": 4,641

Quoting: Tintin

You seem like a well-balanced and reasonable individual.
Wishing you a wonderful Tuesday wherever you reside.

Wouldn't deny he's still a good player now. Long term he may well fall off a cliff however. Might require different pieces I think for it to work for the Avs and then probably doesn't work for the Sharks.

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