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Toronto Maple Leafs 2022 season Discussion (Part 2)

10 déc. 2022 à 22 h 54
#51
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Quoting: MatthewsFan




I’d be all over getting him


meh, wait until he goes unqualified and pursue hard imo. Not sure where he gets into the lineup to really turn his fate around this season. Grab him on a cheap deal in the offseason, and if he doesn't make it there, you're not missing out on Gretzky
10 déc. 2022 à 22 h 56
#52
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Quoting: aadoyle
Engvall's spot is kind of in the air rn

Holmberg has looked good, ZAR-Kampf-Malgin has had solid numbers for a 4th line, I would look to replace him with an upgrade. Like im not counting on it but who knows JP on a new team could be the next Nichuskin


not willing to leave it to a "who knows" this year though. Could totally revisit in the offseason but this team is the real deal and if we make an in-season acquisition, it should be for someone who is known to be the real deal too
10 déc. 2022 à 23 h 41
#53
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10 déc. 2022 à 23 h 56
#54
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Quoting: MatthewsFan




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Im curious of a ZAR-Kampf-Anderson 4th line lets see
11 déc. 2022 à 0 h 54
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Modifié 11 déc. 2022 à 12 h 48
Someone once asked me why I was okay with the hard cap system of the NHL

The New York Mets are perfectly demonstrating why the NHL needs to keep a hard salary cap

Like if someone goes why they do it point to the NYM and say thats why

Cause lets be real MLSE would be spending 100mill an off season
11 déc. 2022 à 12 h 2
#56
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Quoting: aadoyle
Someone once asked me why I was okay with the hard cap system of the NHL

The New York Mets are perfectly demonstrating why the NHL needs to keep a hard salary cap

Like if someone goes why they do it point to the NYM and say thats why

Cause lets be real MLSE would be spending 100mill a season


Teams are already spending 100 mil per season.
Moreover the leafs and rangers lack of sucess over pre-cap time demonstrates that money doesnt buy cups.

Cap needs to be dropped
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11 déc. 2022 à 12 h 48
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Modifié 11 déc. 2022 à 12 h 54
Quoting: Random2152
Teams are already spending 100 mil per season.
Moreover the leafs and rangers lack of sucess over pre-cap time demonstrates that money doesnt buy cups.

Cap needs to be dropped


No no should rephrase 100mill in a single offseason

Basically oh we want ROR here's 20mill come play for us, Oh hey Kane heres 25mill come play for us. Basically they would go get the best guys as if they were playing on rookie mode

Cap should never be dropped. It would hurt the NHL. Look at the MLB. Teams with rich owners can do whatever the **** they want and set their clubs up for sucess. Look at the Mets they just went out and spent a **** tonne getting everyone they want. If this happened few teams would benefit as they would know Toronto, Montreal, and Rangers would come in and outbid em.
11 déc. 2022 à 12 h 52
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Quoting: aadoyle
No no should rephrase 100mill in a single offseason

Basically oh we want ROR here's 20mill come play for us, Oh hey Kane heres 25mill come play for us. Basically they would go get the best guys as if they were playing on rookie mode


but that's a stretch, at the end of the day its still a business and owners want to make money. Would they spend a heck of a lot more than they do? Yes, probably. But they wouldn't be dropping 20-30M for the sake of it. Especially where hockey doesn't make the same revenues as MLB for example, you'd see massive contracts, espcially for top UFA younger talents (Like when a Matthews/McDavid/Drai hits UFA) but the average UFA, or even average top end UFA if that makes sense, would see a much smaller hike
11 déc. 2022 à 12 h 55
#59
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Quoting: leafs101
but that's a stretch, at the end of the day its still a business and owners want to make money. Would they spend a heck of a lot more than they do? Yes, probably. But they wouldn't be dropping 20-30M for the sake of it. Especially where hockey doesn't make the same revenues as MLB for example, you'd see massive contracts, espcially for top UFA younger talents (Like when a Matthews/McDavid/Drai hits UFA) but the average UFA, or even average top end UFA if that makes sense, would see a much smaller hike


Oh trust me if Leafs want a cup money is 0 consequence. Only thing stopping them rn is the salary cap.

They would literally walk up to every big name free agent and go heres a big check come play for us and win. And same would apply to Montreal and the Rangers. It would basically be a 3-way bidding war between those 3 with the rest of the teams going after the lesser assets or really having to overpay to get their guys
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11 déc. 2022 à 12 h 57
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Quoting: aadoyle
Oh trust me if Leafs want a cup money is 0 consequence. Only thing stopping them rn is the salary cap.

They would literally walk up to every big name free agent and go heres a big check come play for us and win.


they would offer above some of the competitive offers probably but like suppose ROR competitive market value with no cap was 7M for example, can't see them going above 9. Just because you can spend more doesn't mean the owners would become completely financially irresponsible, they didn't get in a position to own an NHL team by over-spending their money.
11 déc. 2022 à 13 h 0
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Quoting: leafs101
they would offer above some of the competitive offers probably but like suppose ROR competitive market value with no cap was 7M for example, can't see them going above 9. Just because you can spend more doesn't mean the owners would become completely financially irresponsible, they didn't get in a position to own an NHL team by over-spending their money.


Nope they would go and say hey star player I know your worth 10mill but I want you to come here so take 16-20mill and come play for us. As like we see in baseball with the rich teams if u got money to spend use it. And it causes a power issue amongst the teams

Lets say 2023 offseason removes cap Leafs would literally go spend close to 100mill on ROR, Kane, Larkin, Pacioretty and Orlov to try and win and if they fail as we see with the Mets just try again with more money rinse and repeat

And then fans would complain Tor, Mtl, NYR are grabbing all the good guys and we are stuck with the rest.
11 déc. 2022 à 13 h 4
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Quoting: aadoyle
Nope they would go and say hey star player I know your worth 10mill but I want you to come here so take 16-20mill and come play for us. As like we see in baseball with the rich teams if u got money to spend use it.

Lets say 2023 offseason removes cap Leafs would literally go spend close to 100mill on ROR, Kane, Larkin, Pacioretty and Orlov to try and win and if they fail as we see with the Mets just try again with more money rinse and repeat


to a certain extent, yes, Toronto and etc would spend more and get more of the good players. But my point is its not baseball. The rich NHL teams still don't profit in the same level that MLB teams do. They can't afford to just do that. It doesn't become "money is no object", but it does mean you'll spend more on guys that you really want/need. We'd certainly spend a ton more, but not 100M a season just for the sake of it.

despite being one of the richest teams in the league, contrary to popular belief, the owners wouldn't, nor does the team have, an extra 100M that they are willing to just shell out every season.

And, at a certain point (we saw this with the Leafs in the early/mid 2000s), the team is still gonna sell out, sell their merch, etc, whether we sign all those guys or not. There comes a point where the benefit of being a better team doesn't equate to more revenue, and there also comes a point where the owners aren't willing to shell out money just for the sake of winning when it provides little/no/negative financial incentive for them. Its backed by basic economic theory and has been seen in the past in the NHL.
11 déc. 2022 à 13 h 8
#63
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Quoting: leafs101
my point is its not baseball. The rich NHL teams still don't profit in the same level that MLB teams do. They can't afford to just do that. It doesn't become "money is no object", but it does mean you'll spend more on guys that you really want/need. We'd certainly spend a ton more, but not 100M a season just for the sake of it.

despite being one of the richest teams in the league, contrary to popular belief, the owners wouldn't, nor does the team have, an extra 100M that they are willing to just shell out every season.


Trust me when I say this and I will end it here if the NHL abolished the Salary cap Leafs would go from fielding a team that costs 81.5mill to over 150mill+ in a single offseason

Outbid everyone for almost any FA they want and we would see 3 maybe 4 teams just dominate the FA market. It would be the equivalent to if in todays game a team was playoff good and had 30mill in cap space.
11 déc. 2022 à 13 h 12
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Quoting: aadoyle
Trust me when I say this and I will end it here if the NHL abolished the Salary cap Leafs would go from fielding a team that costs 81.5mill to over 150mill+ in a single offseason

Outbid everyone for almost any FA they want and we would see 3 maybe 4 teams just dominate the FA market. It would be the equivalent to if in todays game a team was playoff good and had 30mill in cap space.


why would they? To win? Does winning provide 70M+ of financial incentive for ownership? Doesn't even guarantee they win. Suppose it took 5 years to win spending that much more you're looking at 350M spent to win.

versus

you spend a little more than you would and keep a competitive team, a contender even, still sell out, still sell all your merch, still have a chance at the cup or at the very least be a playoff team. But you don't drop an extra 70M or more a year.

there comes a point where the desire to win does not outweigh the financials for ownership, you don't become an NHL team owner by being financially irresponsible. I do think owners will pay to win because they want it, or because they see economic benefit, but there's levels to it. Especially in the NHL where they just don't make what a comparable non-cap league like the MLB does.

also as pointed out by @Random2152 there's a track record of NHL teams like NYR and TOR spending more and not getting significantly better results (cup wins). Hockey comes down to chance/luck/variability far more than other sports. Why take on that kind of financial burden when the risk of not winning is large and proven?
11 déc. 2022 à 13 h 17
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Putting this out into the universe so it happens 🤞 Would love it if the Leafs look at trading a depth D for Tolvanen.
11 déc. 2022 à 13 h 22
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Quoting: leafs101
why would they? To win? Does winning provide 70M+ of financial incentive for ownership? Doesn't even guarantee they win. Suppose it took 5 years to win spending that much more you're looking at 350M spent to win.

versus

you spend a little more than you would and keep a competitive team, a contender even, still sell out, still sell all your merch, still have a chance at the cup or at the very least be a playoff team. But you don't drop an extra 70M or more a year.

there comes a point where the desire to win does not outweigh the financials for ownership, you don't become an NHL team owner by being financially irresponsible. I do think owners will pay to win because they want it, or because they see economic benefit, but there's levels to it. Especially in the NHL where they just don't make what a comparable non-cap league like the MLB does.

also as pointed out by Random2152 there's a track record of NHL teams like NYR and TOR spending more and not getting significantly better results (cup wins). Hockey comes down to chance/luck/variability far more than other sports. Why take on that kind of financial burden when the risk of not winning is large and proven?


Ownership will most likely not care if it means winning. Were not owned by a single guy and even then if a Billionaire sees theres a chance to win he goes **** it. As its a writeoff for him/her. Were not in the Ballard era anymore were in the MLSE era

MLSE would be overjoyed with no salarycap as then they could spend spend spend. Thats how it would go

Leafs would go from 81.5mill in spending to over 150+mill luring big name free agents in order to win a chip. Only thing keeping that at bay is the Salary cap which has or would have cost the leafs a few of its notable names

Hyman, Kadri, McCann (if he stayed), Mikheyev, Marchment, etc. But if no salary cap most of these guys would still be here and Leafs would have the means to do more. But while it would be fun to see but sadly would hurt the league as 4 or 5 teams would just have their way like we see in other sports.
11 déc. 2022 à 13 h 23
#67
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Quoting: MatthewsFan




Putting this out into the universe so it happens 🤞 Would love it if the Leafs look at trading a depth D for Tolvanen.


If the cost is like a Malgin and a 6th or Engvall in a 1 for 1 sure. As man idk he just doesnt feel like an upgrade rn.

I want someone/s who would come in and make a huge impact. Like what Tampa did I would honestly be okay with spending 2 1sts on a Coleman and Goodrow like guys (contract and all)
11 déc. 2022 à 13 h 25
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Quoting: aadoyle
Ownership will most likely not care if it means winning. Were not owned by a single guy and even then if a Billionaire sees theres a chance to win he goes **** it. As its a writeoff for him/her.

MLSE would be overjoyed with no salarycap as then they could spend spend spend. Thats how it would go

Leafs would go from 81.5mill in spending to over 150+mill luring big name free agents in order to win a chip. Only thing keeping that at bay is the Salary cap which has or would have cost the leafs a few of its notable names

Hyman, Kadri, McCann (if he stayed), Mikheyev, Marchment, etc. But if no salary cap most of these guys would still be here and Leafs would have the means to do more. But while it would be fun to see but sadly would hurt the league as 4 or 5 teams would just have their way like we see in other sports.


Hyman - yes, they probably keep
McCann - that was expansion draft
Mikheyev - also migh tkeep, but possibly not if now they have Hyman-Bunting LW and have Knies and Robertson en route.
Marchment - was traded as an AHLer
Kadri - was traded because he was being a liability and costing the team greatly. Things worked out for him but cap wasn't really why he got moved

They probably make a few additions and pay a few guys a little more. Add a significant amount to their payroll. But they don't go a la NHL23 salary cap off and offer every free agent they have some interest in 50% above market value.
11 déc. 2022 à 13 h 39
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Still want to see them improve the bottom 6 but nice to see a bounce back from this group.
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11 déc. 2022 à 14 h 7
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Quoting: MatthewsFan




Putting this out into the universe so it happens 🤞 Would love it if the Leafs look at trading a depth D for Tolvanen.


He's on waivers rn... Too bad Leafs are at 50 contracts

Edit: Doubt that he'd fall to them anyway.
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11 déc. 2022 à 14 h 12
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Quoting: LeafsFanForSomeReason
He's on waivers rn... Too bad Leafs are at 50 contracts

Edit: Doubt that he'd fall to them anyway.


Would be a nice gamble but idk rn when looking at the bottom 6 the needs I see are 3c and Scoring RW. Tolvanen can score and is young but man I want someone who can come in and who we know is good in reg and post season

Still if he clears maybe thats when Dubas makes a deal
11 déc. 2022 à 14 h 13
#72
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Quoting: MatthewsFan




Still want to see them improve the bottom 6 but nice to see a bounce back from this group.


Yep

For me rn

top 6 once Jarnkrok comes back is set. Knies should be a nice addition to the bottom 6 so that leaves 3c

As this is what I see (? are blanks that need improvement)

Bunting-Matthews-Nylander
Jarnkrok-Tavares-Marner
Knies-?-?
ZAR-Kampf-Engvall/Anderson/Malgin/whoever
11 déc. 2022 à 14 h 17
#73
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Quoting: LeafsFanForSomeReason
He's on waivers rn... Too bad Leafs are at 50 contracts

Edit: Doubt that he'd fall to them anyway.


😢 fukcin sucks, I’d be all over this
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11 déc. 2022 à 14 h 20
#74
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Quoting: MatthewsFan
😢 fukcin sucks, I’d be all over this


If he passes through a deal could be made. Send Malgin and a 6th and go get him. If he plays well great if he sucks no need to waive just send to the Marlies and try again

But to me and we saw it with the Bear situation I think Dubas wants to only spend picks on bigger fish so to speak.
11 déc. 2022 à 14 h 20
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Quoting: MatthewsFan
😢 fukcin sucks, I’d be all over this


This seems like it woulda been a perfect opportunity to pull a "Douglas for Timmins" type swap...

I don't know Nashville's contract/cap situation off the top of my head, but it really seems weird that they've basically decided to give him away for literally nothing.

Edit: Yeah, just looked - they're only at 45 contracts and ditching the $1.45m really doesn't help them much. Don't see the benefit in this move at all
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