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Marner Doesnt Owe Toronto Anything

Créé par: NickC1988
Équipe: 2019-20 Maple Leafs de Toronto
Date de création initiale: 15 août 2019
Publié: 15 août 2019
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
Description
Marner doesn't owe Toronto a bridge deal, a hometown discount, or anything in that aspect. Just because he plays wing doesn't mean he's not an elite talent. It is completely fair for him to ask for 10,000,000 on a 3 year deal, hell 11x5 years is fair too.

Nylander was upset Tavares got 11 million and then TOR didn't want to pay him. He waited it out, he practiced with garbage U20 teams, finally got his money, and what happened? He underperformed severely. Does TOR want that to happen with Mitch? I doubt it.

Marner is in a similar situation. Matthews got his money, but TOR is paying him more because he's a center? Marner doesn't care about position. All he knows is he outproduced BOTH Tavares and Matthews. Why should he take a pay cut because Matthews and Tavares got paid? Oh and Nylander is yet to break 70 points in a season and got $6.9 per year.

Everyone says "Look at Kucherov, he took that 3 year deal at under $5 per." And what did Tampa win with Kuch taking that pay cut? They didn't even get to the finals. I bet you Kucherov is upset he left so much money on the table and he got hosed. Still no cup ring, and who knows how many millions he missed out on.

Has anyone been to basic Philosphy/psychology class at some point? It is human nature to be greedy and/or selfish. That is universal amongst all theories, psychologists, and philosophers. You may consider him greedy and selfish (I honestly don't think he is), but at the end of the day, he's trying to do what would make him happiest. Everyone else got paid, why can't he?

You work somewhere, you get an annual review, you performed as well as, if not better than, all your coworkers. You go into your review and get less than them. How would you feel? (I get it, these guys are millionaires, but my point isn't related to the money). Would you feel under appreciated? I know I would.

Let the discussion begin.
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16 août 2019 à 3 h 13
#51
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Quoting: NickC1988
Tell me, when you get a performance review do you ask for a raise or a pay cut? Never heard of anyone ask for a pay cut...


Eh? This is a ridiculous post if you're trying to equate this as an analogy to the Marner contract negotiations and the tactics his camp are using. If Marner got 1M he'd be getting a raise. The leafs aren't offering a pay cut?? Smh. Next..

Did you read up on the Stoics yet? you philosopher king
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16 août 2019 à 3 h 19
#52
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Quoting: NickC1988
"Over paid contract" Read below.

Well Matthews just got 11.6 and doesn't put up nearly the same points. Pal, you and I are two of the longest tenured people on this site. It is ridiculous to me that people on here constantly call Marner greedy, expect him to take a discount, and say he's free to sign anywhere because in reality, he doesn't/can't do any of that. Marner is entitled to the same money because they all just signed those contracts. Mackinnon has had that deal for 3 years now (I think), same with Scheifele. Cap goes up and so do player asking prices. Fine lets compare him to Nylander. Two scoring wingers on the same team. Nylander's career high in points is 61 points. 6.9 million divided by 61 points is around $113K per point. Multiply that by the 94 regular season points Marner had and you're at? $10,632,786. Marner only wanting 3 years at 10 million is actually a bargain for the Leafs. He can easily ask to go straight to UFA status in the prime of his career and sign somewhere else like Matthews might.


Check out Laudan's response, I think he does a good job of dismantling your thought process here.

If you're going to intentionally go out of your way to stir the pot then at least put the effort in to doing it right.. Instead of double posting a point that you made that you thought was good. Hint. You didn't make a good point.
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16 août 2019 à 3 h 39
#53
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Quoting: Sign_em_up000000
See this is what I was talking about when I said: “it can be fun but also annoying/sometimes leaf haters take it to far". Ask @palhal how much fun it must be to have to constantly tell leaf haters that Marner is free to sign with whatever team/league he chooses. It can get very tiring.


Oh, I enjoy debating leaf haters. Especially the smart, articulate and logical ones. It's kinda good fun.

I don't enjoy rubes like this guy, though, who make some generalization along the lines of "greed is good" and then toss that out there like they're some authority on the philosophical/psychological nature of human beings. He musta studied philosophical giants like Gordon Gekko to come to a conclusion like that ..
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16 août 2019 à 3 h 44
#54
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Modifié 16 août 2019 à 16 h 36
Quoting: NickC1988
You're leaving out the 13 points in 22 games Nylander had because he wasn't NHL ready his rookie year, since you want to nitpick so much. Marner was NHL ready. I could argue this for hours smile
Edit: At least you agree Dubas isn't the brightest, you're reasonable.


As a stats freak im always triggered when someone kicks me in the balls cause im not prepared for the fight, so i went into details.....we are going point per game then...

Nylander.....22-13, 82-61, 82-61......averages for three years are 0,725........which gave him 6 x 6,9M ( didnt translate into other currencies, cause it fits pretty well )

Marner......82-63, 82-69, 82-94......averages for three years are 0,918.....so it must be 6 x 9M
16 août 2019 à 5 h 42
#55
Loyal Cujo fan
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No way Leafs will pay him that much he will be traded before that happens. Reality is Leafs have all cards right now in their favor not lil Mitchy. Worst case scenario is he sits until asks to be traded then Toronto cashes in on another team. He will not be a Leaf as his father's greed guarantees this. My guess a package deal from NYI.
16 août 2019 à 6 h 48
#56
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Quoting: draft_em_sign_em_trade_em
Next CBA must have a 4 or 5 year ELC contracts. With the 2nd contracts gone wild, teams need that buffer zone to avoid annual cap hell.


You guys have handed out several huge contracts and it's the CBAs fault?

You cant have everything you want. Everyone in the world foresaw this when you signed tavares that it would be tough to keep your big 3 RFAs
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16 août 2019 à 7 h 15
#57
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Quoting: littlejerryseinfeld
You guys have handed out several huge contracts and it's the CBAs fault?

You cant have everything you want. Everyone in the world foresaw this when you signed tavares that it would be tough to keep your big 3 RFAs


But i thought the argument here is that Mitch's camp is entitled to everything they want? Your logic is confusing me here, lil jerry.

Several posters have pointed it out that most of the high end rfas are holding pat for the big bucks. I think draft em's point here is that the owners will get fed up with that. I also think that Pals point on this being an internal PA issue rather than a CBA sticking point is very likely correct.
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16 août 2019 à 7 h 18
#58
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I agree with this and have been arguing with Leaf fans about it all summer long.
16 août 2019 à 7 h 25
#59
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Quoting: TCMonkey
I agree with this and have been arguing with Leaf fans about it all summer long.


I disagree with this and have been arguing with non leaf fans about the holes in their logic all summer.

Now what do we do?
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16 août 2019 à 7 h 38
#60
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Quoting: blowing_the_zone
But i thought the argument here is that Mitch's camp is entitled to everything they want? Your logic is confusing me here, lil jerry.

Several posters have pointed it out that most of the high end rfas are holding pat for the big bucks. I think draft em's point here is that the owners will get fed up with that. I also think that Pals point on this being an internal PA issue rather than a CBA sticking point is very likely correct.


I havent said marner is entitled to whatever he wants. I said leafs fans turning on marner is ridiculous. Of course it's not everyone, but there are alot of you.
16 août 2019 à 7 h 38
#61
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Quoting: NickC1988
Well Matthews just got 11.6 and doesn't put up nearly the same points. Pal, you and I are two of the longest tenured people on this site. It is ridiculous to me that people on here constantly call Marner greedy, expect him to take a discount, and say he's free to sign anywhere because in reality, he doesn't/can't do any of that. Marner is entitled to the same money because they all just signed those contracts. Mackinnon has had that deal for 3 years now (I think), same with Scheifele. Cap goes up and so do player asking prices. Fine lets compare him to Nylander. Two scoring wingers on the same team. Nylander's career high in points is 61 points. 6.9 million divided by 61 points is around $113K per point. Multiply that by the 94 regular season points Marner had and you're at? $10,632,786. Marner only wanting 3 years at 10 million is actually a bargain for the Leafs. He can easily ask to go straight to UFA status in the prime of his career and sign somewhere else like Matthews might.

I'm not hating on anyone, all I'm saying is you can't expect a player to sign for 8.5 when his production compared to his peers is far greater. I'm not anti leaf fans. But I think Dubas is in way over his head in Toronto and he built the team poorly. You know I wouldn't make a post on this site without backing it up with numbers and statistics. Marner at 10 is a good deal and the leafs should be all over it. Last thing you want is another Nylander situation, slowing down a player's growth.


Sorry Nick your logic is flawed. . By to compare what Marner should be making on a fair contract strictly on the basis of Matthews and Nylander....well that is not how the NHL pay structure operates. Now I understand Marner's logic and his feeling why he should get Matthews money. Just because. the Leafs overpaid two RFA doesn't mean that have to continue to pay overpay every other RFA that comes along.
Certainly Marner can sign a contract with any team (in the NHL offer sheet). Aho did. That's Marner's and the Leafs bar....what other teams might offer Marner, not Matthews.
You quote..".he should compare to his peers".....correct. Check Aho and Marner for the past two seasons....identical. So, when I read that Marner has to be compared to Matthews ONLY... well it it isn't Leafs hate , it is not CBA realism.
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16 août 2019 à 7 h 44
#62
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Quoting: littlejerryseinfeld
I havent said marner is entitled to whatever he wants. I said leafs fans turning on marner is ridiculous. Of course it's not everyone, but there are alot of you.


I don't think leaf fans have turned on Marner. We're turning on this ridiculous narrative and the tactics that Marner's camp continue to use. We're not a bunch of rubes.

Marner is playing with fire with his approach to all this and he could very well end up getting burned. Balls in his court right now. He's not being treated unfairly and all the leafs have to do is wait him out if he continues to want to play the role of victim.
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16 août 2019 à 8 h 21
#63
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Quoting: littlejerryseinfeld
I havent said marner is entitled to whatever he wants. I said leafs fans turning on marner is ridiculous. Of course it's not everyone, but there are alot of you.


So you have issues with some Leafs fans okay? But painting an entire fanbase with the same brush...yeah that's foolish.
Every fanbase has bad apples and should not be judged on said bad apples.
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16 août 2019 à 8 h 35
#64
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Quoting: blowing_the_zone
I don't think leaf fans have turned on Marner. We're turning on this ridiculous narrative and the tactics that Marner's camp continue to use. We're not a bunch of rubes.

Marner is playing with fire with his approach to all this and he could very well end up getting burned. Balls in his court right now. He's not being treated unfairly and all the leafs have to do is wait him out if he continues to want to play the role of victim.


In my case, I haven't turned on Marner ir even his negotiation team. I'm confused by the hockey fans on this site, that think Marner HAS to be paid the same (or close to) Matthews contract. These fans have to know that isn't how the NHL pay structure operates. So my only conclusion is that they folks must be Leaf/Leaf fan haters or just ignorant of the CBA. Now if Marner and his negotiation want to use Matthew as leverage.....fine. But even they must know. the CBA....RFA restrictions and total NHL comparables are the main factors in contracts.
There are a lot more important RFAs that still haven't signed. Is there reason they are so concerned about Marner and his contract? For example a player is offered 7m a year which reasonable, does it really matter waiting for Marner to sign and the try to negotiate and may even get a 7.25m. I wonder if there is going to be player....such as Laine or Connor and is the last man standing when all the other RFAs are signed. Similar to Gardiner when the virtually all the UFA money have been spent. Laine might take have almost a one year qualifying offer, if Jets have little cap, and no other team can/will make an offer sheet.
16 août 2019 à 8 h 37
#65
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Quoting: NickC1988
Well Matthews just got 11.6 and doesn't put up nearly the same points. Pal, you and I are two of the longest tenured people on this site. It is ridiculous to me that people on here constantly call Marner greedy, expect him to take a discount, and say he's free to sign anywhere because in reality, he doesn't/can't do any of that. Marner is entitled to the same money because they all just signed those contracts. Mackinnon has had that deal for 3 years now (I think), same with Scheifele. Cap goes up and so do player asking prices. Fine lets compare him to Nylander. Two scoring wingers on the same team. Nylander's career high in points is 61 points. 6.9 million divided by 61 points is around $113K per point. Multiply that by the 94 regular season points Marner had and you're at? $10,632,786. Marner only wanting 3 years at 10 million is actually a bargain for the Leafs. He can easily ask to go straight to UFA status in the prime of his career and sign somewhere else like Matthews might.

I'm not hating on anyone, all I'm saying is you can't expect a player to sign for 8.5 when his production compared to his peers is far greater. I'm not anti leaf fans. But I think Dubas is in way over his head in Toronto and he built the team poorly. You know I wouldn't make a post on this site without backing it up with numbers and statistics. Marner at 10 is a good deal and the leafs should be all over it. Last thing you want is another Nylander situation, slowing down a player's growth.


Two months ago @swinny made some excellent points and backed said points up with websites that track advanced analytics.
Fast forward to the Monday morning this week and Sportsnet 590 had their advanced analytics guy on. He said the same things @swinny said two months ago.

The only area the advance stats favor Marner is on the Powerplay. The rest of the areas regarding these advance stats all favor Matthews and Tavares.

Taking that into consideration and that Dubas is an advance stats guy...he's not just going to ignore that in negiotations. Marner's camp doesn't have much they point to justifying the contract Marner wants.
16 août 2019 à 8 h 52
#66
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Quoting: palhal
In my case, I haven't turned on Marner ir even his negotiation team. I'm confused by the hockey fans on this site, that think Marner HAS to be paid the same (or close to) Matthews contract. These fans have to know that isn't how the NHL pay structure operates. So my only conclusion is that they folks must be Leaf/Leaf fan haters or just ignorant of the CBA. Now if Marner and his negotiation want to use Matthew as leverage.....fine. But even they must know. the CBA....RFA restrictions and total NHL comparables are the main factors in contracts.
There are a lot more important RFAs that still haven't signed. Is there reason they are so concerned about Marner and his contract? For example a player is offered 7m a year which reasonable, does it really matter waiting for Marner to sign and the try to negotiate and may even get a 7.25m. I wonder if there is going to be player....such as Laine or Connor and is the last man standing when all the other RFAs are signed. Similar to Gardiner when the virtually all the UFA money have been spent. Laine might take have almost a one year qualifying offer, if Jets have little cap, and no other team can/will make an offer sheet.


Couldn't agree more, Pal.

I understand the approach that these rfas are taking, and its certainly their right to chart their own course and determine what tactics to deploy, but like any negotiations there's two sides to this coin, and any strategy that an rfa chooses comes with consequences. Nothing is risk free.

Imo, the rfas, or maybe it's just the narrative the media has decided to spin, forget that GMs have considerable leverage.
16 août 2019 à 9 h 9
#67
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Quoting: blowing_the_zone
Couldn't agree more, Pal.

I understand the approach that these rfas are taking, and its certainly their right to chart their own course and determine what tactics to deploy, but like any negotiations there's two sides to this coin, and any strategy that an rfa chooses comes with consequences. Nothing is risk free.

Imo, the rfas, or maybe it's just the narrative the media has decided to spin, forget that GMs have considerable leverage.


You mentioned the leverage NHL GMs have. I'm still surprised that the Leaf with all their highly paid executives seemed to give overly "player friendly" contracts to Nylander and Matthews. Sure the Leafs management knew the course they were taking, but geez even at the time it seemed to an expensive path to take and with future cap implications. Thank goodness, Marleau and his 6.25m is gone.
16 août 2019 à 9 h 11
#68
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Quoting: blowing_the_zone
I don't think leaf fans have turned on Marner. We're turning on this ridiculous narrative and the tactics that Marner's camp continue to use. We're not a bunch of rubes.

Marner is playing with fire with his approach to all this and he could very well end up getting burned. Balls in his court right now. He's not being treated unfairly and all the leafs have to do is wait him out if he continues to want to play the role of victim.


So you are buying what the team leaks to the media hook line and sinker?
16 août 2019 à 9 h 12
#69
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Quoting: oneX
So you have issues with some Leafs fans okay? But painting an entire fanbase with the same brush...yeah that's foolish.
Every fanbase has bad apples and should not be judged on said bad apples.


What's the fun in that? This is sports, not war.
16 août 2019 à 9 h 12
#70
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Quoting: blowing_the_zone
I disagree with this and have been arguing with non leaf fans about the holes in their logic all summer.

Now what do we do?


I'm a hockey fan, and by no means a "homer" when it comes to this stuff. AHO seems to be the contract most people point to and it isn't a great comparison. AHO will make $8,454,000 for the next 5 seasons. His career avg is .814 points per game. He'll be UFA at 26 which means he can sign another HUGE long term contract unless he nose dives. Matthews' $11,634,000 contract also expires when he is 26 which allows him to sign another HUGE deal when it's done, and he has a .966 points per game average. Marner's career avg is .929 points per game, closer to Matthews' average than Aho's, so it stands to reason that his money should be closer too, but that's not the biggest issue for me. What I find particularly unfair is that Toronto is trying to force Marner to an 8 year deal and refusing to go above $10M. So not only would he make less per year than Matthews BUT his contract wouldn't expire until he was 29, which is widely considered an age when players start to decline - that'd make it harder for him to command a HUGE contract as he reaches UFA. I believe a more reasonable offer would be 2 years at $10M, 5 years at $10.5, or 8 years at $11M.
16 août 2019 à 16 h 9
#71
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Quoting: TCMonkey
I'm a hockey fan, and by no means a "homer" when it comes to this stuff. AHO seems to be the contract most people point to and it isn't a great comparison. AHO will make $8,454,000 for the next 5 seasons. His career avg is .814 points per game. He'll be UFA at 26 which means he can sign another HUGE long term contract unless he nose dives. Matthews' $11,634,000 contract also expires when he is 26 which allows him to sign another HUGE deal when it's done, and he has a .966 points per game average. Marner's career avg is .929 points per game, closer to Matthews' average than Aho's, so it stands to reason that his money should be closer too, but that's not the biggest issue for me. What I find particularly unfair is that Toronto is trying to force Marner to an 8 year deal and refusing to go above $10M. So not only would he make less per year than Matthews BUT his contract wouldn't expire until he was 29, which is widely considered an age when players start to decline - that'd make it harder for him to command a HUGE contract as he reaches UFA. I believe a more reasonable offer would be 2 years at $10M, 5 years at $10.5, or 8 years at $11M.


Some good and valid points here, tcmonkey . Thanks for spelling it out.

I haven't heard that the leafs are trying to force Marner into an 8 yr deal. From what I've gleaned from the media knuckleheads is that they've tabled 3yr, 6yr and a 7yr deal with the original offer this offseason being the 10M/8yr offer, to which Ferris countered with 10M/3 yr.

I do agree with you that rfas are pushing for those 5 yr deals for all the reasons you spelled out. The leafs appear to be pushing back on a 5 yr deal because they don't want their three young guys to all come due at the same time. Makes sense to me, but maybe this is where they make a compromise? Who knows?

On the Mitch to AM comparison, thanks for backing that with those stats. Marner doesn't produce at the same clip as AM, and he's not a 6 ft 3 225 lb franchise center. Rightly or wrongly the whole league puts more value on a guy like AM. Marner can say AM is his only comparison, but so far no one seems to be willing to offer him that contract. That must mean something..?

I personally think it lands at a 3 yr deal in the 9M range , plus or minus a bit. The leafs can afford that, it lines up with an offer that was apparently on the table for AM, and it would indicate a compromise between the leafs 8 75M/3 yr offer (iirc) or Ferris's 10M/3yr counter.

Just to be clear, I see that as an overpay, and as rfas begin to sign I think that will further prove to he true. But that's where I think thing might be heading.
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16 août 2019 à 16 h 9
#72
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Quoting: littlejerryseinfeld
So you are buying what the team leaks to the media hook line and sinker?



Wut??
Sign_em_up000000 a aimé ceci.
16 août 2019 à 16 h 22
#73
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Okay not much to add here as @blowing_the_zone , @jamiepo , @palhal , @onex , @laudan , @Sign_em_up000000 have all done a great job of pointing out the facts.

I will say though right now, not next season or few years from now, Marner is not a goal scorer.
He is a playmaker.

To me the goals should be the measurement for a FW, granted not the only one, but the primary.

The reason why Matthews got what he got is because he is not just a centre but the man put up way more goals than Marner did.
And the pace at which he was scoring goals when the contract was being negotiated was unreal, had he not got injured... oh man.


And why does Marner have to set the market for RFA's????
A comparable for player has always been determined by what is being handed in the league, not what is being handed out in a team.

Yes Marner can ask for the moon, but that doesnt mean that him or his camp will get it period.

Nylander started wanting 8 million and it jumped to 9, what did he get? Less than 7, cool 1.5 million less.

Truth, Marner's camp aimed high early and looks they missed because no one is offering them what they want.


There's no offer sheet coming, I'll point to tumbleweed rolling by in that topic.


For Marner's camp, reality will set eventually but when will that be who knows.
Dubas and the Leafs have the leverage, Marner sitting out is not gonna just hurt the Leafs... it's going to hurt Marner too.


Also this nonsense about him getting a pay cut needs to stop because he made less than a million, he will getting a ridiculous raise no matter what.
16 août 2019 à 16 h 25
#74
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Quoting: palhal
You mentioned the leverage NHL GMs have. I'm still surprised that the Leaf with all their highly paid executives seemed to give overly "player friendly" contracts to Nylander and Matthews. Sure the Leafs management knew the course they were taking, but geez even at the time it seemed to an expensive path to take and with future cap implications. Thank goodness, Marleau and his 6.25m is gone.


I'm okay with the Nylander deal, despite his play last season. It's a bit if an over pay but pretty darn close to what reasonable analysts were projecting based on comparables.

I was a bit shocked with the AM contract. Not the aav so much, but the term. I think in all honesty though, that AM had most of the leverage in that negotiation as I have no doubt that there would have been real OS's waiting for him this offseason, and not just the threat of one. I'm not a fan of it, but I can understand it. Mostly though, I appreciate that it was handled with class and proffesionalism and the contract came and went without the media having a chance to stir tension for their benefit.

Few thoughts on Marner. A) I'm sure the leafs had a budgetted number for Marner last year relative to AM and Nylander and then he blew that number out of that water given the way he produced. B) Mitch chose to bet on himself and shut negotiations down at the start of last season. And by all accounts it seems like he won that bet. C) Hes doubled down on that bet with making AM his only comparable and it'll likely be a bridge too far. I think he loses that bet.

All the leafs need to do now is say that this is all that is left in the budget, it's an overpay based on your comparables and we respect your decision on what choose to do. We'll wait to see what the other rfas sign for and we can take it from there. They still have leverage.
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16 août 2019 à 16 h 32
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Quoting: Trickster
Okay not much to add here as @blowing_the_zone , @jamiepo , @palhal , @onex , @laudan , @Sign_em_up000000 have all done a great job of pointing out the facts.

I will say though right now, not next season or few years from now, Marner is not a goal scorer.
He is a playmaker.

To me the goals should be the measurement for a FW, granted not the only one, but the primary.

The reason why Matthews got what he got is because he is not just a centre but the man put up way more goals than Marner did.
And the pace at which he was scoring goals when the contract was being negotiated was unreal, had he not got injured... oh man.


And why does Marner have to set the market for RFA's????
A comparable for player has always been determined by what is being handed in the league, not what is being handed out in a team.

Yes Marner can ask for the moon, but that doesnt mean that him or his camp will get it period.

Nylander started wanting 8 million and it jumped to 9, what did he get? Less than 7, cool 1.5 million less.

Truth, Marner's camp aimed high early and looks they missed because no one is offering them what they want.


There's no offer sheet coming, I'll point to tumbleweed rolling by in that topic.


For Marner's camp, reality will set eventually but when will that be who knows.
Dubas and the Leafs have the leverage, Marner sitting out is not gonna just hurt the Leafs... it's going to hurt Marner too.


Also this nonsense about him getting a pay cut needs to stop because he made less than a million, he will getting a ridiculous raise no matter what.


I rest my case with your response.

I'm now walking away to get a beer.
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