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JSEB93

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Penguins de Pittsburgh
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Forum: Armchair-GM16 avr. à 16 h 25
Sujet: Penguins 2024-25 Season
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LuckyMoneyPuck</b></div><div>again not a single stat.
I gave you the Dzone start stat, in link.
They aren't wrong. That's it.
You are trying to talk about in game flow starts. Think about that for 1 minute would you.
You aren't going to change on your side of the ice for multiple reasons that should be obvious to anyone who's ever played hockey or watched. Especially when your bench is the far one on switches.
Players would rather stay in for shifts over 1:30 before try to switch pinned in their own end.

This is why this 12% stat you keep trying to justify is junk. It's a non-validated stat as they would say in analytics.
And the reason the one hockey-ref is giving you is way more telling.
Nor do neutral zone starts, tell you which direction the puck is heading. So it tells you nothing about use.
But the stat that hockey-ref gives you does.
As far as i'm concerned this should be obvious to anyone looking at it. So I don't know why you are obsessed with a non validated stat. When you are given a better one.

again, show me the justification for a "bad" year in the numbers. There are 31 other 2LD in the league, compare the numbers, lets see how it's a bad year.
I just gave you 1/4 the league. The numbers are on part with most, some a little better some a little worse but on par. Only guys getting paid way more have any real noticeable advantage. But you get what you pay for right?</div></div>

Dude I've provided them already. If you're not going to read my comments there's no point in continuing this conversation. I've provided the discrepancies between him and rest of the top4. I gave comparisons between EK/Letang with the different LHD. I gave his player card WAR.

Here - https://moneypuck.com/stats.htm

Yes - you are wrong. It's not junk - it's just factually correct. You said dzone starts - I gave you dzone starts. No - it's not more telling. Because I haven't been given a better one - that's why.

Dude I've already provided it. Read my comments before responding. I wish we got what we paid for. We got a 2LD having a bad season that EK and Letang have tried to drag into looking average. And again - people have bad seasons. I get it. It doesn't mean he's an awful player, or that he can't bounce back. But the guy has had a bad season. It's clear to anyone who has even remotely followed this team
Forum: Armchair-GM16 avr. à 16 h 17
Sujet: Pens return
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LuckyMoneyPuck</b></div><div>I don't think you get it.
I only need to show his play is average 2LD play.
Which was the whole point. You just don't get what bad 2LD play is.
All his numbers rank up in line in average with other 2LD.
There are a handful that have better numbers. They are also getting paid far more... Like Orlov. But they didn't want to pay 7.7 mil per for that level of player, so don't expect that level of player.
Go look at the numbers.
You will see.
His corsi is on par, his fenwick is no par. His oiGA is better than most. He's not a turn over machine.
They paid for a 2LD....they got a 2LD. It's not a "bad" season..... it's just what a 2LD is.
Be glad he's a guy who only gave up a 5v5 oiGA 2.0 as some of these guys are far worse.

So again. Show me through the stats. Compare the 2LDs. Where are the huge issues that say "bad" season.</div></div>

Honestly I don't think you get anything. Okay then do it. Because you have yet to do so. They got 2LD having a very bad season for his contract. Except it is a bad season. You are the only person on planet Earth saying he's had a good season. There's a reason for that. Take a hint. Dude I've explained the GA/60 thing like 50 times already. That is the only number you have and are clinging to it - and not only is that one facet of the game but I've explained the issue with it.

I've provided ample evidence. Not my fault if you won't take the time to read it. You on the other hand - have provided no evidence that he's having a good season.
Forum: Armchair-GM16 avr. à 16 h 14
Sujet: Pens return
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LuckyMoneyPuck</b></div><div>again, you showed offensive stats. POJ is paired with letang in the Ozone because he can't defend. ... POJ does not drive those numbers. He's just a ride along and keeping him out his own end.

There is no abnormally high sv% Graves 5v5 PDO is 99.7 .... that means they are statistically on par. again leading with numbers not opinions on how it got there.
58.5 D zone starts 5v5.... defensive use... leading with numbers
https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/g/gravery01.html

Don't tell me what your opinion of it is.... those are the stats.</div></div>

??? No I didn't. I showed overall metrics - which is exactly what we should be looking at. POJ is paired with Letang because that's his current d partner. POJ also gets the same % of ozone starts as Graves. If he's just a ride along then so is Graves.

Yes - Graves has an abnormally high on ice sv%. This is just a factual statement. Clearly you don't know what PDO is. You're not leading with numbers lol - you are going solely based on your opinion.

And you've provided absolutely no stats that show he has had a good season. Anybody can just throw out numbers.
Forum: Armchair-GM16 avr. à 16 h 5
Sujet: Penguins 2024-25 Season
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LuckyMoneyPuck</b></div><div>A. he is used defensively. you keep wanting to say 12.7% of his starts are defensive. Look at those numbers you posted.
Letang was 11, EK was 10... what you think Chad R. and now Ivvany is getting 78% of the d starts? Your numbers don't add up.
you want to use neutral zone starts to diminish the actual starts. I'm not playing that game. Neutral zone starts don't tell you the direction the puck is going.
So it's worthless.
But zone starts do.

I have looked at game logs, there is a small stretch of games Graves time is diminished. But even in that time he's still getting more time. He got 14 minutes in some games. but POJ and the 3RD were getting 9-10 minutes. so he was still carrying the 4th spot. There was maybe 3-4 games where that wasn't the case. But it doesn't matter, His TIO is still 18:23 over the 70 games. where POJ is 14:58 boosted by the fact graves has been out 11 games now.

So again, you aren't leading with any numbers here.
You seem to think every defenseman is going to have great numbers. 55% corsi... that isn't 2LD numbers. roughly 50% is 2LD corsi numbers. You see to think guys who are taking defensive roles are suppose to have offensive numbers. They aren't.
Lead with numbers, not opinion.
I'm showing you this. I'm giving other 2LD comparable. I'm showing the stats as they measure.
Do the same.</div></div>

"He's used defensively" isn't an argument for him having a good season - especially not when he hasn't been good defensively and only stats in the dzone marginally more. I keep wanting to say that because that's the % of his starts that are in the dzone. Yes - look at them. Ruhwedel is around 12%. St Ivany is around 7%. How do they not add up? That makes no sense. I'm the one giving you the actual zone starts. Of course you aren't - because you don't want to play any game that would prove you wrong. My number is in no way worthless. You said dzone starts. Thats literally what i provided. You're just trying to move the goalposts now because you know you're wrong.

So you agree his TOI was diminished. Okay cool - end of that topic. I'm right.

Yes - I am. It's you that isn't. No - I don't. Just another strawman from you. Stop with this defensive role nonsense dude - you have no point there. It doesn't mean he's had a good season. He also hasn't been good defensively.

Dude - take you own advice. Lead with numbers, not opinion. You've given nothing that says he's had a good season. Saying "he's been deployed defensively" is not a good argument for him having a good season

I literally gave you the Pettersson/Graves/POJ comparison. I also gave you evidence that he is clearly lacking the rest of the top4 on the Pens. I gave you his horrendous WAR on his player card
Forum: Armchair-GM16 avr. à 15 h 48
Sujet: Pens return
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LuckyMoneyPuck</b></div><div>I am more than happy to have the POJ argument.
POJ 5v5 oiGA is almost a full goal ahead of Graves at 2.9 to 2.
He bleeds almost 50% more goals on the ice in 5v5 play. Period.
Graves is not an offensive defensemen, we have established his deployment is mainly in the defensive role, So I don't care what his offensive numbers are. That's not what they asked him to do. They asked him to stop the goals from bleeding. that is obvious.</div></div>

I don't think you are - because you just completely avoided my stats comparing Graves and POJ playing with the same d partner. And how it's significantly worse than with Pettersson. Again - Graves' abnormally high on ice sv% is what makes him better in the GA/60 metric.

His deployment isn't the defensive zone - we've established that. Okay but don't you care that he's also been bad defensively? Yes - they did. And he's not doing that
Forum: Armchair-GM16 avr. à 15 h 35
Sujet: Pens return
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LuckyMoneyPuck</b></div><div>Lets look at your stats first.
his corsi is almost 50%, he does as hockey-ref show get 58% of his starts in dzone.
that's about what you should expect there. It's average. No other top 4 is getting those dzone starts.
Is that it?
lets do some comparable around the league.
https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/o/oleksja01.html Jamie Oleksiak
https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/r/romanal01.html Alexander Romanov
https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/w/walkese01.html Sean Walker
https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lindees01.html Esa Lindell 5.8 mil
https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lauzoje01.html Jeremy Lauzon
https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/m/mcnabbr01.html Brayden McNabb
https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/g/gavrivl01.html Gavrikov, Vladislav 5.8 mil
https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/o/orlovdm01.html Dmitry Orlov 7.7 mil



I picked those almost random. Some I had to pass on, low number of games, or I knew they were not 2LD like on PHL who traded their 2LD to COL.
It's 1/4 the league. Depth chart has them as 2LD.
It's from a mix of team roughly same level as the penguins some teams are better. I tried not to take bottom teams as their stats might be a bit bias against the defensemen.
Graves number are roughly average for a 2LD. You can see so above.
There are 1 or 2 who are better defenseman than Graves. There is no doubt Orlov is a better defenseman than Graves. He is also getting 7.7 mil per.
One could argue some of Gavrikov stats have him as a slight improvement. He's getting 5.8 mil per.

You are going to have to do better on your statistical arguments. As you got an average 2LD there, on an average 2LD salary.
Jamie Oleksiak is one of the closest comparable. Big, defensive defenseman, roughly same salary. Near identical numbers.
You don't here SEA fans slamming him all day long every day.

Try again.</div></div>

Correct, almost 50% - as in 49%. Which is what I said. MoneyPuck has his ACTUAL dzone starts at 12.7%. Why did you say "is that it" as if you made some kind of point?

No - I don't need to do any better. You on the other hand - need to do significantly better.

Nowhere did you prove he isn't having a bad season. Try again.
Forum: Armchair-GM16 avr. à 15 h 8
Sujet: Penguins 2024-25 Season
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LuckyMoneyPuck</b></div><div>again people have stated this, when he was signed and afterwards. The burden is not on me to find the posts. They are there. if this site allowed search it would be easy to find, but sadly it does not.

B. saying "he was demoted" when his ice time never went down means nothing, his role changed, not his ice time.
I'm going to say this again. Show me your statistical proof he's a bad defenseman. You keep thinking the burden is on me to prove he's good. I've laid out the numbers and show what happened on the ice.

Where is your proof he's a bad defense man other than the already disproven theory of "he was demoted" which isn't true. Every night he still got more ice time than POJ, Shea, Ludvvig and Chad R or what ever other 3rd pairing guys there were. You can't point to the game, where he did not get injured, where that's not true. So his ice time clearly wasn't demoted. His role just shifted to make up for the bad 3rd pairing which was bleeding a ton of goals. So by all means, point the games out where his ice time was 5th or 6th for defenseman. aka 3rd pairing aka demotion. If you can't it's a dead argument.

So where is your stats that prove that a guy who gets mainly defensive starts in a shut down role as your own number have show, is a "bad" defenseman at the 2LD level.
If you are going to call it, you must prove it. The burden isn't the other way around. I have shown how he isn't and how his numbers are what should be expected. Now the burden is on you.
If you can't prove it. The convo is over.</div></div>

No they didn't. And the burden of proof is actually very much on you. That's how proving a point works man.

His ice time did go down. A lot. It takes like 5 seconds to look at his game log. I've provided it - here and in our other conversation(I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you wrote this comment first) - analytics, comparisons, player cards, etc. And yet you've provided nothing to show he is having a good season. Well yes - the burden of proof would be on you to prove he's good. You really don't understand how burden of proof is applied or what it means huh? You haven't though - you gave one number which I provided context for.

Dude read my comments please - both here and our other conversation(I'll give you the benefit of the doubt you wrote this comment first). It is 100% true. It's just a fact.

He doesn't get mainly defensive starts. He's at 12.7%. He's not playing a shut down role, and certainly isn't doing a good job of it if he is. I've given my proof, both here and in our other conversation .You have provided zero proof that he is having a good season. If you are going to call it, you must prove it. You somehow think everybody else needs to prove their point but you don't? Weird. Yes - the burden is one you. No - you haven't shown how he isn't. If you can't prove it - the convo is over. Everybody but you agrees Graves is having a bad season. There's a reason for that - take a hint
Forum: Armchair-GM16 avr. à 14 h 58
Sujet: Pens return
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LuckyMoneyPuck</b></div><div>Kind of some one side ism here. a 2% difference in zone starts is pretty big. You know MP's is probably lower too as he's linked to Ek in the Ozone starts. The 3rd pairing, LD is constantly hidden with Letang in the Ozone as well aka POJ. So what we see here is Graves is clearly the Defense man getting the Dzone Starts. It's clear who they depend on.

As I said, this number changed during the year. When they realized the defense was awful and could not be trusted. Graves got shifted to the Dzone starts to stop the bleeding of the goals.

Prior to that, they tried the top 4 pairings, letting them play Ozone, EK-MP and Graves-Letang. But the 3rd pair could not be trusted for crap. Which is how this whole "demoted" bs started.

They hid the 3LD with Letang in the Ozone as much as possible because Letang can control the puck, and the more they were in the Ozone the less damage could be done. They played Graves as much as they could in the Dzone. Which is why his minutes didn't go down, but was paired with a 3RD occasionally (go look at the minutes he's always 3rd or 4th never played 3rd pairing minutes). because who else could play there.
It wasn't going to be EK, as you can see above, they don't want him in the Dzone we both know why stop tryng to pretend he's a better defender than Graves, that has been a laughable argument from you.

The only other person was Letang. So it would be Graves and who ever was able to shift between the 3RD and Letang. It could not always be Letang because he might have just got out his shift.

Somehow this gets twisted in PIT fan base to "demotion"

So lets stop the "not big enough to help the point" it shows exactly what is happening on the ice. Which is what I'm trying to tell you from the start. Graves was the 1 guy all year who could play his own zone.
Not that MP couldn't play his zone, but he was stuck with EK which prevented him from really helping there.

They can't trust the AHL level 3rd pairing.
MP followed EK in the Ozone as much as possible because EK needs a competent partner as he's a defense liability. Clearly you know that is true.
So Letang got dragged down, usually with POJ, sometimes Ludvvig.
And Graves got stuck with Chad or Ivvany or Shea.

You want to constantly blame this guy for a "bad year." Yet his goal per 60 is the lowest, and he was used the most to defend his goal and keep the puck out. With a legit AHL level partner for a lot of that time.
The numbers tell the story, you just don't want to see them.

For the record, there is a difference between playing bad and playing injured. To say something like "no idea if he was ever giong to recover....is really a sad excuse. He was thrown under the bus here by a fan base. That's what happened. It's pretty bad that they did Dumo dirty like that.

I have no problem point out a player is "bad". I point it out all the time. But at least I get it right and don't just throw them under buses because that's what the crowd did.
Graves has done what was asked the best he could as an average 2LD. He did it fairly well. He stopped the goals going in. The oiGA/60 and oiGA shows that. His deployment shows that.
You don't want to recognize what the numbers show and just say he's "bad" but at no point are you showing me any statistical evidence as to it. Only asking people "prove he's good".
Where is the proof he's "bad". he gets almost 60% starts in Dzone and yet had an almost 50-50 corsi-fw. He's a net + player, His oiGA are lowest on the team. He's depolyed use is mainly defensive so his offensive number aren't going to be high.
So I'm waiting for this proof on how he's bad. Because all the numbers show at the very least an average 2LD which is what they paid for.</div></div>

Just to add even more proof - look at Letang and EK combined numbers when playing with Pettersson vs Graves vs POJ.

Pettersson:
+18
52.5 xGF
53% SCF

Graves:
-2
50% xGF
49.5 SCF%

POJ:
-1
49% xGF
50 SCF%

So EK/Letang are doing as well with Mr AHL POJ as they are with big contract Ryan Graves. And yet you'll argue that POJ is an AHLer and Graves is having a good season for his contract. And where's your proof? All you have is GA/60 which I already proved is because of his abnormally high on ice sv%
Forum: Armchair-GM16 avr. à 14 h 51
Sujet: Pens return
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LuckyMoneyPuck</b></div><div>Kind of some one side ism here. a 2% difference in zone starts is pretty big. You know MP's is probably lower too as he's linked to Ek in the Ozone starts. The 3rd pairing, LD is constantly hidden with Letang in the Ozone as well aka POJ. So what we see here is Graves is clearly the Defense man getting the Dzone Starts. It's clear who they depend on.

As I said, this number changed during the year. When they realized the defense was awful and could not be trusted. Graves got shifted to the Dzone starts to stop the bleeding of the goals.

Prior to that, they tried the top 4 pairings, letting them play Ozone, EK-MP and Graves-Letang. But the 3rd pair could not be trusted for crap. Which is how this whole "demoted" bs started.

They hid the 3LD with Letang in the Ozone as much as possible because Letang can control the puck, and the more they were in the Ozone the less damage could be done. They played Graves as much as they could in the Dzone. Which is why his minutes didn't go down, but was paired with a 3RD occasionally (go look at the minutes he's always 3rd or 4th never played 3rd pairing minutes). because who else could play there.
It wasn't going to be EK, as you can see above, they don't want him in the Dzone we both know why stop tryng to pretend he's a better defender than Graves, that has been a laughable argument from you.

The only other person was Letang. So it would be Graves and who ever was able to shift between the 3RD and Letang. It could not always be Letang because he might have just got out his shift.

Somehow this gets twisted in PIT fan base to "demotion"

So lets stop the "not big enough to help the point" it shows exactly what is happening on the ice. Which is what I'm trying to tell you from the start. Graves was the 1 guy all year who could play his own zone.
Not that MP couldn't play his zone, but he was stuck with EK which prevented him from really helping there.

They can't trust the AHL level 3rd pairing.
MP followed EK in the Ozone as much as possible because EK needs a competent partner as he's a defense liability. Clearly you know that is true.
So Letang got dragged down, usually with POJ, sometimes Ludvvig.
And Graves got stuck with Chad or Ivvany or Shea.

You want to constantly blame this guy for a "bad year." Yet his goal per 60 is the lowest, and he was used the most to defend his goal and keep the puck out. With a legit AHL level partner for a lot of that time.
The numbers tell the story, you just don't want to see them.

For the record, there is a difference between playing bad and playing injured. To say something like "no idea if he was ever giong to recover....is really a sad excuse. He was thrown under the bus here by a fan base. That's what happened. It's pretty bad that they did Dumo dirty like that.

I have no problem point out a player is "bad". I point it out all the time. But at least I get it right and don't just throw them under buses because that's what the crowd did.
Graves has done what was asked the best he could as an average 2LD. He did it fairly well. He stopped the goals going in. The oiGA/60 and oiGA shows that. His deployment shows that.
You don't want to recognize what the numbers show and just say he's "bad" but at no point are you showing me any statistical evidence as to it. Only asking people "prove he's good".
Where is the proof he's "bad". he gets almost 60% starts in Dzone and yet had an almost 50-50 corsi-fw. He's a net + player, His oiGA are lowest on the team. He's depolyed use is mainly defensive so his offensive number aren't going to be high.
So I'm waiting for this proof on how he's bad. Because all the numbers show at the very least an average 2LD which is what they paid for.</div></div>

It's really not a big difference - not one that would explain your point. Pettersson is 12.3% dzone starts at 5v5 - basically the same as Graves. POJ gets the same ozone starts as Graves - so not sure what your point is there. No - it's not really clear who they depend on. And that also doesn't prove Graves is doing well or that he's not having a bad season. And again - of course Letang and Karlsson are going to get more ozone starts. You have no point here.

Yeah you said that. And you have provided absolutely zero proof that is the case. Graves isn't stopping any bleeding of goals. No - the demotion was because Graves wasn't playing well.

No - they didn't. And yes - he can. No - they didn't play Graves as much as possible in the dzone. Graves playing time took a big hit starting in January - so again, you're wrong. EK isn't a lefty so you're comparison there is nonsensical. It's actually not at all a laughable statement from me - it's just accurate based on this season specifically.

It was literally a demotion - there's no twisting.

No - I won't stop - because what I said is correct. He wasn't the one guy all year that could play in his own zone. This is just factually and laughably incorrect. Pettersson is significantly better than Graves in his own zone - it's not even close.

Why does your argument always come back to comparing Graves to league min 3rd pair guys? This is a horrendous point. Also, you should really look at the numbers when EK/Letang play with Graves vs the AHL POJ haha. Yes - EK isn't good defensively. The issue Graves hasn't been good defensively either. And isn't even in the same realm of offensive talent. Graves got put with Ruhwedel because he was playing bad so they demoted him to see if POJ could perform better than him.

Yes - because he's had a bad year. There's no quotes needed there. I already explained why his GA/60 is the lowest. He didn't have an AHL level partner for a lot of that time. This is just factually incorrect, like most of what you say. Ironically, he's been the one dragging down EK/Letang. Correct, the numbers tell the story - and prove me right. You just don't want to see them.

Yeah and Dumo was playing bad. No - it's not even remotely a sad excuse. And no - he wasn't. He was a beloved player that people accurately pointed out had a bad season. Why are you allowed to criticize players but nobody else is? No - it's not bad at all.

Yes haha - you love pointing out a player is bad. And yet you refuse to acknowledge Graves has been bead - which is just a factual statement. Hence my question on if you're related to him or something - because it makes no sense. No - you clearly don't get it right. No - Graves hasn't done what was asked. Certainly not fairly well. He didn't stop goals going in. Neither of those things show that.

I'm the one here looking at the numbers man. You refuse to do so. I said he's had a bad season. This is just a factually correct statement. He gets 12.7% dzone starts dude - not even remotely close to 60%. Hes a +1 at 5v5. He got dragged to that +1. The rest of the top four are +6, +8, and +19 at 5v5. He has a negative Corsi - 49% at 5v5. The rest of the top 4 are 51%, 52%, and 54%. No - the numbers do not show that. His Jfreshhockey player card has him at 17% offensive WAR and 29% defensive WAR. And where's your proof? All you have is GA/60 which I already proved is because of his abnormally high on ice sv%
Forum: Armchair-GM16 avr. à 13 h 26
Sujet: Penguins 2024-25 Season
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LuckyMoneyPuck</b></div><div>I'm not going back to dig up proof. People have said it, and that has been the attitude.
People have acted that he was the "Dumo replacement" The 1LD who would come in and shut people down. If you can't admit that I don't know what to tell you.
It was a foolish view of that signing then and it remains it. No one is singing a 1LD for that cost. No one. The pens were fortunate to get Dumo at that low contract for years. Then turned around and treated him poorly while coming off a broken ankle.

The goalie play is the law of averages. Which balance out in 70+ games. If you think he plays 1 way for 1 guy and another for another that just isn't how it is. It's like saying the goalie always played bad for Jack Johnson. No. Jack Johnson was just a bad defenseman. Which effected the goalies numbers. Not the other way around.
It's no difference here. If the goalie play was dragging down 1 defense man, it would drag down multiple.
It's a many to 1 and 1 to many relationship

Graves was never demoted. You go find me the game he played 5th or 6th minutes a night.
He's consistently been3rd or 4th in minutes all year</div></div>

Not going back because you can't you mean. No - that hasn't been the attitude. Yes - the Dumo replacement. As in Dumo is leaving and they are bringing in another LHD. Really not that hard to understand bud. Also, Pettersson was the 1LD last year anyway. So your point is moot multiple ways. Nobody said Graves was the 1LD who would come in and shut people down. If you can't admit that - I don't know what to tell you. Stop making things up or something like that maybe? I obviously can't admit to something that isn't true. It's not foolish - it's made up. By you. Correct - nobody is. You're just helping my point. Thanks for that. Dumo wasn't treated poorly - he was a fan favorite and team favorite. It's like you don't follow this team at all.

Yes - that is how it is. Different players will have different on ice sv%. It's not all going to be equal. If there was any proof that it was based on his play then I would admit it - but there isn't any. Yeah and Ryan Graves has been a bad defenseman this year.

Dude he was literally demoted to play with Ruhwedel. I'm starting to think you just don't follow this team at all. Idk why you're so adamant to say Graves has been good when he obviously hasn't
Forum: Armchair-GM16 avr. à 13 h 13
Sujet: Pens return
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LuckyMoneyPuck</b></div><div>This is like saying they didn't hide Shultz in the Ozone because he was "offensively gifted" and not the fact that he was inept at playing defense and everyone knew it.
Some guys are sheltered in the Ozone. That's just the way it is.
This is why 2 offensive guys who don't play defense well don't work on the same team. SJS EK and Burns... now EK and Letang... it's the same problem. As you can't keep both out the Dzone.
Given Letang is better on defense than Burns was, but he's still very much prone to errors and lapses. He frequently leaves his partner and goalie exposed.

It's not the same as saying hide crosby in the Ozone.... If they really need a PK stop, they have put Crosby out there.
If they really need a PK stop, they aren't putting EK out there and you know that's true.
One is an all around player, the other is a liability in his own end.

hockey ref.. has 5v5
Letang 48%
Graves 58%

I didn't look at all situations, because that's not a telling stat for several reasons. 1 being Graves can split PK with MP.
Who's Letang going to split with? Not EK....the 3rd pairing guys suck. So I have no doubt Letang probably pulls most of the PK starts because there is no one else on the right side to do it.

As far as Dumo... you chased a guy out who was coming off a broken ankle. It can take 2 years to recover from that. But you run him out calling him "horrible".
you can trace his "decline" to the injury. You never gave the guy a chance to fully recover. It was just "he's horrible, he sucks"
Break your ankle and then try to skate on it. Then come tell me about it and rip a guy for being "horrible".

It took him time to heal. Which he did. But fans here were hell bent to scapegoat him. Even now you won't give him credit for his good play.
Talk about loyalty.
You wonder why I stick up for Graves.
Believe me there were plenty of things wrong with the Pens that year. Going after the guy coming off a broken ankle is least best of options to blame it on.</div></div>

I already proved your "hide him in the ozone" point incorrect - so move along. None of the Pens defenseman are sheltered in the ozone though.

You can't just say they don't work lol. It would work if they had a 2nd competent LHD for the 2nd pair - but they don't. Clearly they don't need to keep both out of the dzone. Yeah and so does Graves.

Huh? What are you even bringing up the PK for? Makes no sense. Plus Crosby hasn't even touched the PK in like 6 years. So no - clearly they aren't putting him out there.

My apologies it was set to all situations. At 5v5 dzone starts it's Graves 12.7%, Letang 11.3%, and EK 10.7%. So basically no difference. Certainly not a big enough one to help your argument or point.

I didn't do anything. Yes - he was bad last year. That's just an accurate statement. It's a fair thing to point out. You have no idea if he was ever going to recover. And you also don't know how bad he would have been here if he had to take on more responsibility - we didn't need a 3LD, which is what he is now. We needed a 2LD. I will rip a guy for playing bad if he's playing bad. This is professional sports man. You can't just let people linger year after year in hopes they recover after the age of 30. Dude they simply pointed out he played bad lol - there's nothing wrong with that. I did give him credit - for being a fine 3rd pairing defenseman. Loyalty? What do you think he is, my brother? I can't acknowledge when any player is playing bad - but you're allowed to? Makes no sense.

Yes - I genuinely wonder why you stick up for Graves. And I'm still wondering - because you have yet to explain or prove it. There's nothing wrong with pointing out when a player is bad. It's ridiculous to think otherwise. I don't know why you're so adamant in saying Graves has had a good season when he obviously hasn't.
Forum: Armchair-GM16 avr. à 12 h 31
Sujet: Pens return
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LuckyMoneyPuck</b></div><div>yeah, because they hide him in the Ozone every chance they get. Pretty hard to get shots in when you don't have the puck.
I mean really do you watch the games?
Letang did put the puck in his own net.
I believe he was on the ice with Malkin when that one happened as well.
The two of them playing "catch"

But lets be clear about it. Trading Graves, you will be right back where you are again next season. Wondering why nothing changed without fixing the real issues.
People did the same thing to Dumo last year. Oh he's horrible...... Goes to SEA and plays fine.
Then you wonder why you don't have a shutdown defenseman anymore who can actually help in his own end.</div></div>

They don't "hide them in the ozone" - they are the top pairing dmen and are offensively gifted. That's like saying they "hide Crosby in the ozone", or any top pairing defenseman for that matter.. Also, Letang has a higher defensive zone shift start % than Graves according to MoneyPuck and EK is only 4% less - so your point is moot anyway.

I do - do you? Because your comments say otherwise.

Letang didn't put the puck in his own net. This is just a factually incorrect statement. Malkin did.

Or you could spend that money to improve the team - which would be fixing the issue that is Ryan Graves and his contract. Yeah - Dumo was horrible last year. He makes less money and significantly less term and has been "fine" in a sheltered 3rd pairing role. That's not what we signed Graves to do. Dumo wasn't a shutdown defenseman last year - and Graves clearly isn't a shutdown defenseman based on this year - or any year for that matter. So no, we won't be wondering that
Forum: Armchair-GM16 avr. à 11 h 39
Sujet: Penguins 2024-25 Season
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LuckyMoneyPuck</b></div><div>Are you kidding me?
People have literally said on here they wanted Graves to come in and "shut down" the other teams "top line"....
Say I want a 4.5 mil 1LD with out saying 1LD....So no that's no straw man argument. People wanted him to come be THE shutdown guy. Well you got a 2LD.

on ice save%.... It's the same Freaking goalie...
Maybe the save% is better because he doesn't F give up high danger shots left and right which is why they bleed a goal more per game.
Maybe the save% is better because he doesn't wander half way across the rink leaving his goalie in a bad position.
Maybe the save% is better because he doesn't just stand there and watch the play happen without doing anything.

Did you ever think their play might be a reason for that difference when it's the EXACT same goalie behind them?
Or are we suppose to believe that the goalie goes...OMG Graves is out here I have to play great...and then just takes the time off when he's off the ice?

Or maybe it's those mistakes like watching the puck go past them in a must win game right into a high danger area that is causing them to lose games?

I mean call me crazy but I've seen enough.

I watch POJ wander all over the ice like he expects someone else to clear the front of the net out ever damn game. Like why be in front of the net...someone else will do that right?

While Pens fans give straw man arguments about how Graves is demoted to 3rd pairing... while playing 18-20 minutes a night and the 3rd pairing guys are out there for 12.

Maybe if anyone of them was actually capable of playing in their own end, Graves wouldn't have to be in his own end every damn shift.
In the mean time lets all make some more ACGM where POJ is a 1LD playing with Letang, but he can't even be trusted to PK.

I really hate to break it to you, the problems on defense, aren't Graves.
You can start with Ludvig, Shea, Ivvany, and POJ. Because collectively the 4 of them are worth maybe 1/2 a bag of pucks.
EK, should never be left to play in his own zone. He's not capable of it.
Letang has a history of very stupid decision making. But because we can't hide him in the Ozone like they use to, as they now have to hide EK there, we see those errors more and more.
Fact is this team has 2 to 2 1/2 players who can actually play in their own zone to any level of useful ness. Graves and MP. They are usually saddled with poor help from their partner.</div></div>

I'm gonna need to see some evidence on that. I mean there's obviously some weirdos out there - but I haven't seen anyone say that. No - it's a strawman. And that's not what people wanted. They wanted him to be the 2nd pair guy. Everybody and their mother knows Pettersson was the 1LD.

"It's the same goalie" - did you think this was some great point or something? And we know 100% that's not maybe the case. He has the 2nd worst SCA/60 on the team. Just because it's the same goalie doesn't mean it's the same goalie play. Yes - I did think that. But unlike you I actually looked to see if that was the case. And it's not. Please tell me you don't actually think "it's the same goalie" is an argument? That's one of the worst arguments I have ever heard. Like you genuinely think that a goalie plays the same in front of every single player throughout an entire season? You think every player would have the same on ice sv%? That makes no sense.

We have irrefutable evidence that it's not those mistakes though. You're just incorrect. Okay - you're crazy.

Clearly you don't have any idea what strawman argument means haha. So I wouldn't use that phrase. And he was demoted for periods of time.

Graves isn't even capable of playing in his own end. And maybe if he didn't have a terrible season - people wouldn't be pointing it out.

I really hate to break it to you, but Graves has been a problem. This is just objectively true. Every single person agrees except you. And you are incapable of proving otherwise. Why in the world are you comparing Graves to league min 3rd pair defenseman? That is an absolutely horrendous point.

And yet EK has been better in his own zone this season than Graves. Not to mention EK isn't here to play in his own zone. There is an entirely different facet of the game that he is elite at that you are conveniently leaving out. You can't include Graves with Pettersson - not based on the season he's had. He's shown no signs that he can play in his own zone either. Dude - Graves is the poor help lol
Forum: Armchair-GM16 avr. à 11 h 21
Sujet: Pens return
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LuckyMoneyPuck</b></div><div>that's because I don't watch grave get paid 10 mil to casually watch the puck go by him so it can be shot into the net in a must win game.
I really hate to break it to you, but he's pretty invisible on the ice, he doesn't make a ton of errors, and a lot of games you don't really notice him...which is what you want in a defenseman who's job is to play defense.
Almost every time I see him on the ice and a goal is scored, he's usually paired with Letang or EK.... and they put him in a 2 on 1 or some other bad position.
Like the goal Letang put into his on net.... I mean FFS tell me when Graves has done that?
Everyone here rips Graves and turns a blind eye to defensive murder because of a name on a jersey or some obsession. Meanwhile, he's the only non- F up defenseman they have.</div></div>

The Pens give up less shot attempts, scoring chances, expected goals, and high danger shots with Karlsson on the ice than Graves. I'm not saying Karlsson is good defensively, just pointing out that your argument is flawed.

Unfortunately you do notice him - making a lot of errors. What you described is basically Chad Ruhwedel, not Ryan Graves.

Yeah of course he's paired with them - when he's not getting demoted of course. And there you go just making stuff up again haha.

Letang never put a goal into his own net. Ironically Graves has haha. He did it against the Stars. We rip Graves for good reason, and don't turn a blind eye to defensive murder. No - he's not. You're the only one here who seems to be turning a blind eye because of the name on the jersey or some obsession. The rest of us are just living in reality.
Forum: Armchair-GM16 avr. à 10 h 25
Sujet: Penguins 2024-25 Season
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LuckyMoneyPuck</b></div><div>I'm a former defenseman, I know what a "bad" defenseman looks like.... it ain't Graves.
You keep wanting to rip the guy who doesn't cough up goals and plays hard minutes.
Grass isn't greener on the other end.
He's not a 1LD... get over that, everyone knew that when they signed him at 4.5 because no 1LD is signing that.
Your problem is you just don't know what an average 2LD looks like.
Just for a comparable look at Oleksiak. It's almost the exact comparable except Graves is far better.
You don't have a bad player or a bad contract. What you have is a bad expectation and a willingness to blame 1 guy and not the others.
Instead of just targeting 1 guy because that's what the others do, maybe go be real about the play.
oiGA/60
Graves 2
MP 2.6
EK 2.6
Letang 2.8
The rest aren't even worth mentioning because they are AHL level.

I know you don't get this, but the more the season went on, the more Graves got more and more shifts in his own end because he's really the best defender they have and the one guy they actually trusted to shut it down. And he did.

So maybe instead of telling us all how "bad" he is, you should try not chasing another good defender out of PIT.
You sound like the people who chased out Cole, Mattheson, and Dumo.
None of which were smart moves by this team. So just put a sock in it about how "bad" he is.
There are many worse defensemen on the team.
Let me know when you are ready to start on the AHL collective of POJ, Ludvig, Shea, and Ivany.
Who are all FAR more problematic on the ice than Graves is.</div></div>

Obviously you don't. Yes - it is - this season. No - I'm ripping the guy who is having a bad season - the same thing everybody else is doing that has watched this team play. You are the only person on planet Earth defending Graves.
Dude - nobody ever called him a 1LD. Stop saying that. You just completely made that up and then keep trying to use it as a deflection.
No actually I do - so I guess I don't have a problem then. Your current problem is making up strawmans that nobody else has ever said and then arguing against the nonsense that you made up.
No - it's a player having a bad season and therefore a bad contract. There's no bad expectations here. Nowhere did I blame one guy - but sick strawman. Again.

Since you love numbers why don't you look at on ice save % - which is the entire reason Graves GA/60 is as low as it is. Maybe if you took 2 seconds to look at the entire picture instead of cherry picking one stat to base your entire argument on, you'd see where you're wrong. Also, you realize there's a whole different side of the game right? Right? And there you go with the AHL nonsense again haha.

Correct - I don't get something you just completely made up and isn't even remotely correct.

It's not bad in quotes - it's just bad. He's had a bad season. I'm not chasing a good defender out Pittsburgh. You sound like the alt accounts on twitter that made there account just to argue with people instead of living in reality. How about I don't put a sock in it for giving a factual statement. Is there? Who? 3rd pair guys making league min? That's who you're comparing him to? That's your genius proof that he isn't having a bad season? Yikes dude that's just embarrassing. Please tell me you're just trolling
Forum: Armchair-GM16 avr. à 9 h 55
Sujet: Pens return
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>LuckyMoneyPuck</b></div><div>the magical FA goalie.....

Most goalies in FA are Old.
The ones that aren't have never carried a full time load or very few and far between.
For every goalie carrying a full time load, when they move a spot is open.
If it was really so easy, so many teams wouldn't be looking for one.
Fact is you can look at Jarry and say...oh other have similar numbers. But none of them were ever All stars for their play not once but twice. He's not old enough to say... he's washed. There is plenty of tread on those tires.
Jarry had arguably one of the worse defense in the entire league in front of him all year. The 3rd pairing has been AHL level all year.
EK and Letang are disasters in their own end.
I mean really, In a game that was basically a must win against BOS, EK just watched the puck go right past him and it ended up resulting in a goal. That's the kind of help penguins goalies have had this year in a nut shell.
If you put any defensive help in front of Jarry, those numbers don't look like that.
Fact is Jarry can stand on his head and everyone has seen it. That's why he's been to all star games. You can't just "find that" in free agency.</div></div>

It's kinda weird how you love talking bad about basically every Pens defenseman - but then also defend Ryan Graves like your life depends on it.

But I agree with you on Jarry. He's a better goalie than his numbers this season. He would be the best goalie on the market if he was a UFA. His numbers took a nosedive when the Pens just decided to take the month of March off haha. And the defensive play wasn't great in the prior months either