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is tavares a top 10 forward in the NHL

is tavares a top 10 forward in the NHL
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30 sept. 2017 à 15 h 51
#51
Banni
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Quoting: rangersandislesfan
Quoting: mhockey91
My top 10 in no order:

Crosby
Mcdavid
Kane
Malkin
Stamkos
Benn
Seguin
Tavares
Ovi
Last spot was tough: leaning between backstrom, toews, and Matthews


so i'm not the only one putting Ovi top 10 at least.


goody goody. At least he put Kane there unlike someone else I know.
30 sept. 2017 à 15 h 51
#52
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Quoting: boltscharge17
Quoting: rangersandislesfan

because he keeps losing? well same thing happened a few years ago?


it doesn't have anything to do with losing.

I can name 16 forwards that are better than Ovi.

Stamkos
Crosby
McDavid
Tarasenko
Kucherov
Panarin
Benn
Seguin
Tavares
Matthews
Kane
Malkin
Getzlaf
Pavelski
Scheifle

can you justify why 7 of them aren't as good?


waiting RAIF
30 sept. 2017 à 15 h 53
#53
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Quoting: boltscharge17
Quoting: boltscharge17


it doesn't have anything to do with losing.

I can name 16 forwards that are better than Ovi.

Stamkos
Crosby
McDavid
Tarasenko
Kucherov
Panarin
Benn
Seguin
Tavares
Matthews
Kane
Malkin
Getzlaf
Pavelski
Scheifle

can you justify why 7 of them aren't as good?


waiting RAIF

Simple: Ovi's won rocket richards, hart trophies, and the reason he hasn't won cups is cause he hasn't played on a very good team in the playoffs recently. It's not his fault.
30 sept. 2017 à 15 h 53
#54
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Quoting: rangersandislesfan
Quoting: boltscharge17


waiting RAIF

Simple: Ovi's won rocket richards, hart trophies, and the reason he hasn't won cups is cause he hasn't played on a very good team in the playoffs recently. It's not his fault.


this for NOW. You literally said that yourself earlier.
30 sept. 2017 à 15 h 54
#55
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Quoting: rangersandislesfan
Quoting: boltscharge17


waiting RAIF

Simple: Ovi's won rocket richards, hart trophies, and the reason he hasn't won cups is cause he hasn't played on a very good team in the playoffs recently. It's not his fault.


it's also not his fault he doesn't show up in the playoffs...
30 sept. 2017 à 16 h 27
#56
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Quoting: krakowitz
Quoting: rangersandislesfan


so krakowitz is allowed to say that Crosby's not a top 10 player without giving much of a reason but i'm not allowed to say Kane's not top 10 even though i've explained my reason?


I gave a reason, and it's not like I have the er...reputation...that you have


Lmao is this some kind of joke
30 sept. 2017 à 16 h 29
#57
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Quoting: boltscharge17
Quoting: rangersandislesfan

Simple: Ovi's won rocket richards, hart trophies, and the reason he hasn't won cups is cause he hasn't played on a very good team in the playoffs recently. It's not his fault.


this for NOW. You literally said that yourself earlier.


yeah, and NOW is when he brings more leadership and a better defensive game.

Quoting: boltscharge17
Quoting: rangersandislesfan

Simple: Ovi's won rocket richards, hart trophies, and the reason he hasn't won cups is cause he hasn't played on a very good team in the playoffs recently. It's not his fault.


it's also not his fault he doesn't show up in the playoffs...


his main problem is the big games ... he's a good playoff player, he just struggles when it comes to the big games.
30 sept. 2017 à 16 h 32
#58
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Leadership is not a trait that makes a player objectively good.

Every player has leadership, with a few exceptions. Those are rare cases.

Please stop citing non-quantitate stats when you are making a case. There is no structure to the case, nor does it provide sufficient proof to your point.
30 sept. 2017 à 16 h 32
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What data do you have to support that Alex Ovechkin is "better" defensively than he was in past years?
30 sept. 2017 à 16 h 32
#60
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Quoting: phillyjabroni
Leadership is not a trait that makes a player objectively good.

Every player has leadership, with a few exceptions. Those are rare cases.

Please stop citing non-quantitate stats when you are making a case. There is no structure to the case, nor does it provide sufficient proof to your point.


Leadership is super important.
30 sept. 2017 à 16 h 33
#61
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Quoting: phillyjabroni
What data do you have to support that Alex Ovechkin is "better" defensively than he was in past years?

i don't use advanced stats ... you don't want to hear this but i watch the games, that's why i think that, not from advanced stats.
30 sept. 2017 à 16 h 34
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I think ovi deserves to be in the top 10 players, but not ahead of Kane. I mean, if we take out last season... the last season ovi DIDNT reach 50 goals was 11/12... (lockout season he was on pace). That’s pretty crazy if you ask me. He can definitely score 40 goals this year
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30 sept. 2017 à 16 h 34
#63
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Quoting: rangersandislesfan
Quoting: phillyjabroni
What data do you have to support that Alex Ovechkin is "better" defensively than he was in past years?

i don't use advanced stats ... you don't want to hear this but i watch the games, that's why i think that, not from advanced stats.


What have you watched from Alex that supports your case, assuming that we take what you say at face value?
30 sept. 2017 à 16 h 37
#64
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Quoting: phillyjabroni
Quoting: rangersandislesfan

i don't use advanced stats ... you don't want to hear this but i watch the games, that's why i think that, not from advanced stats.


What have you watched from Alex that supports your case, assuming that we take what you say at face value?


well he's been better in his own zone at keeping the puck away form the other team, going back to stop the forwards on the other team, etc.
30 sept. 2017 à 16 h 38
#65
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Quoting: rangersandislesfan
Quoting: phillyjabroni
Leadership is not a trait that makes a player objectively good.

Every player has leadership, with a few exceptions. Those are rare cases.

Please stop citing non-quantitate stats when you are making a case. There is no structure to the case, nor does it provide sufficient proof to your point.


Leadership is super important.


Nobody is saying that it isn't. But there's no way to value leadership and how a player inspires the team around him. The only information we have on players' leadership qualities is when other players talk about what happens in the locker room. But I can't use my Caps bias and say that Ovechkin is a better player than Malkin because of leadership, simply because Ovechkin is a captain and Malkin isn't. I can't say Ovechkin is a better player than McDavid because Ovi has been a captain longer.
30 sept. 2017 à 16 h 38
#66
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Quoting: rangersandislesfan
Quoting: phillyjabroni


What have you watched from Alex that supports your case, assuming that we take what you say at face value?


well he's been better in his own zone at keeping the puck away form the other team, going back to stop the forwards on the other team, etc.


That's called defense. Give examples.

Do you need to phone a friend?
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30 sept. 2017 à 16 h 38
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Quoting: rangersandislesfan
Quoting: phillyjabroni


What have you watched from Alex that supports your case, assuming that we take what you say at face value?


well he's been better in his own zone at keeping the puck away form the other team, going back to stop the forwards on the other team, etc.


Dude ovi still sucks defensively. Did you not SEE game 7. He was literally the reason for BOTH pens goals (especially the hornqvist one) elite offensive talent no doubt but he’s probably the most one dimensional player in the leauge
30 sept. 2017 à 16 h 39
#68
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Quoting: krakowitz
Quoting: rangersandislesfan


Leadership is super important.


Nobody is saying that it isn't. But there's no way to value leadership and how a player inspires the team around him. The only information we have on players' leadership qualities is when other players talk about what happens in the locker room. But I can't use my Caps bias and say that Ovechkin is a better player than Malkin because of leadership, simply because Ovechkin is a captain and Malkin isn't. I can't say Ovechkin is a better player than McDavid because Ovi has been a captain longer.


He was up for the Mark Messier leadership award in 15-16.
30 sept. 2017 à 16 h 41
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Quoting: rangersandislesfan
Quoting: phillyjabroni


What have you watched from Alex that supports your case, assuming that we take what you say at face value?


well he's been better in his own zone at keeping the puck away form the other team, going back to stop the forwards on the other team, etc.


http://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/teamShotLocDefWi/1617/WSH/ovechal85/wrap

giphy.gif
30 sept. 2017 à 16 h 57
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Quoting: mhockey91
Quoting: rangersandislesfan


well he's been better in his own zone at keeping the puck away form the other team, going back to stop the forwards on the other team, etc.


Dude ovi still sucks defensively. Did you not SEE game 7. He was literally the reason for BOTH pens goals (especially the hornqvist one) elite offensive talent no doubt but he’s probably the most one dimensional player in the leauge


rangersandislesfan -- I'll help you out here.

In Game 7, the two goals allowed were not Ovechkin's "fault". While he could have done more to help in his own end, it wasn't his responsibility in the first place. On the first goal, Niskanen's exit pass wasn't on target for Ovechkin. That lead to the puck staying in the zone. Daniel Winnik and Jay Beagle shouldn't have gone off to the races like they did. Beagle should have stayed in the middle in case the puck failed to leave the zone. When the puck came to Crosby and he passed it to Guentzel, there was a huge gap that needed to be covered to the left of Holtby. Niskanen and Ovechkin both had a lot of ground to cover. Had Beagle stayed back like he should have, this doesn't happen. Orlov stalled as long as he could for someone to cover the rest of that ground, and Ovechkin didn't hustle back. While he should have hustled, you can't blame the winger trying to exit the zone as being responsible for a goal on that play.
30 sept. 2017 à 16 h 59
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My top 10 forwards and...IN ORDER! Man this was harder than I thought it would be.

1.) Crosby Plays at the elite level with less help than McDavid. It'll change soon enough...could be this upcoming year...
2.) McDavid Reigning Hart winner.
3.) Kane Stud metrics and I think it'll prove out when Panarin drops off a bit. He's suited well next to Wenneberg, but Torts will drop him to the 4th line at some point because he's Torts and Panarin will HATE that.
4.) Getzlaf 2-way player, get's hard assignments, stud metrics and points. Pretty much the reason ANA as a team gets as far as they do
5.) Bergeron 4-time Selke...will have more than any other player in history when he's done. Scores enough points for him to still be great on offense. A Faceoff monster...not a huge metric, but just 1 more nice thing.
6.) Tavares 2-way player that has made multiple wingers 30 goal scoers for them to drop off when the leave his side.
7.) Backstrom
8.) Tarasenko Every other team has one goal when they play STL...shut down Tarasenko.
9.) Kucherov
10.) Matthews - thought about making him an honorable mention...great rookie year, but still 1 year.

Honorable mentions -
Toews Probably my bias there, but I'm owning it.
Scheifle
Benn He's trending down unfortunately. Need to see a bounce back for him to make the list.
Stamkos just needs to play more and I'd put him back up there.
30 sept. 2017 à 17 h 2
#72
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Quoting: exo2769
My top 10 forwards and...IN ORDER! Man this was harder than I thought it would be.

Crosby Plays at the elite level with less help than McDavid. It'll change soon enough...could be this upcoming year...
McDavid Reigning Hart winner.
Kane Stud metrics and I think it'll prove out when Panarin drops off a bit. He's suited well next to Wenneberg, but Torts will drop him to the 4th line at some point because he's Torts and Panarin will HATE that.
Getzlaf 2-way player, get's hard assignments, stud metrics and points. Pretty much the reason ANA as a team gets as far as they do
Bergeron 4-time Selke...will have more than any other player in history when he's done. Scores enough points for him to still be great on offense. A Faceoff monster...not a huge metric, but just 1 more nice thing.
Tavares 2-way player that has made multiple wingers 30 goal scoers for them to drop off when the leave his side.
Backstrom
Tarasenko Every other team has one goal when they play STL...shut down Tarasenko.
Kucherov
Matthews - thought about making him an honorable mention...great rookie year. I just have a hard time putting a rookie here.

Honorable mentions -
Toews Probably my bias there, but I'm owning it.
Scheifle
Benn He's trending down unfortunately. Need to see a bounce back for him to make the list.
Stamkos just needs to play more and I'd put him back up there.

Deletes
30 sept. 2017 à 17 h 2
#73
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Quoting: DavidBooth7
mtdavis, just give up. It's like explaining physics to a toddler...


David: How dare you belittle toddlers!!!!
30 sept. 2017 à 17 h 12
#74
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Modifié 30 sept. 2017 à 17 h 19
Mhockey. My man. You have (2) Dallas stars in your top 7. Feel free to knock the list. A single word response is weak.
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30 sept. 2017 à 17 h 19
#75
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For what it is worth, here are my top-ten forwards:

1.) Sidney Crosby
1.) Connor McDavid
3.) Patrick Kane
4.) Vladimir Tarensenko
5.) Steven Stamkos
6.) John Tavares
7.) Nicklas Backstorm
7.) Jonathon Toews
9.) Jamie Benn
9.) Nikita Kucherov
9.) Patrice Bergeron

I personally hate using "top number" when listing players. I prefer to use "tiers" to rank players, such as "Elite", "Tier 1", Tier 2...", etc.

Listing players also assumes that there is a standard deviation of a whole "1 rank", when it may just be "0.5" or "1.5" between ranks.
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