Has Graves been that bad?

Canes have no interest in bringing back Ned as the 4/5 goalie.

He just doesn't fit this system. We all know what he's capable of, but he just hasn't found his footing here.

Regardless, the Pens would never make a deal like that and retain $2M for four more years. So no, while he hasn't fit, he wasn't been THAT bad.

The only thing that's bad is most of these trades. None of this makes any sense. Why move half the team on the way to rebuild only to trade for Chychurn? This team would be a disaster.

Could take or leave that trade on the quality of Graves, but the Pens can use those picks more (if a trade like that can actually happen).

Graves has not been good at all. With the retention, it makes sense to consider keeping him as the 3LD instead of Ludvig, and then just getting a 3RD who's more around league minimum. So that trade is in no way integral to this whole suite of changes. I'm just very ready to move on from him if it nets some interesting futures.

Graves at $2.5m...would be hard to pass.

Graves played very uneventful, boring, middle-pair defense in NJ...and we were happy with it (for most part).

Siegenthaler -- Hamilton
Hughes -- Nemec
Graves -- Marino

Its not Hanifin...but still decent group.

Yeah, but Dubas wouldn't do that. To retain that much for four years just won't happen.

Bahl for Graves+1st otherwise

Agree four years is too long.

And give him a year or two...often new players stink in first year of long-term deal.

That Henrique contract is awful.

Reinhart also declines, he'll get more AAV after the season he's had.

Will tell you right now that AZ is on Raks NTC lol

you would think at that cost oilers would just buy out campbell themselves...

Ned is a .915... Kochetkov is a .910... why pay a 2nd for a minimal upgrade at best, BEFORE factoring in he was unsuccessful here once

I truly don't think the Pens will have to pay to move Graves. Now, I'm not saying they'll get anything significant for him, but there are teams who absolutely recognize he's a good player not fitting in. Plus, our defense isn't much of an issue. We're not desperate to do this.

I bring this up a lot to people. For the Pens, we experienced this with Gonchar and Paul Martin. Both of their first years they came in being proven dmen and had really bad first seasons and then went on to be great for us.

We saw it with Dougie…even Siegenthaler to some extent.

(Marino was well-trained, thank you for that)

Chychrun in OTT. Orlov this year in CAR.

Give ‘em time.

I think if the penguins wanted to move him they’d have to pay. Especially to jersey, bc if we wanted graves at 4.5 we’d have signed him at 4.5. You can somewhat say this for other teams but Graves may have chosen Pitt over them. And then his play this year has lowered said value. However I think they should just keep him and give him a bit of time to settle in

I mean, they're not moving him to jersey and no, they won't have to pay to move him. I'm not trying to bark at you, but this board has a really unrealistic/unclear vision of how all this works. Just because a player is having a bad season or an off-year they don't all of a sudden become these pieces of crap they have to pay teams to take. I'm telling you this as a fact, that's not how it works. Now, if Graves had like two bad years in a row on this contract? Ok, there'd be some validity to that, but a player who's only 28 coming off a strong year doens't just become crap overnight and GM's know this and they will generally capitalize on situations like this to get good players for cheap. MAYBE the Pens would have to take a contract back, but that would be the extent.

Yes, it will absolutely affect return, but they don't have to pay or retain. This board has become worse and worse with it's general takes and this is one.

My general thought process is this:

If a player leaves a team to sign a new team as a UFA (especially if it’s not a top tier contender), that means him at that contract is generally his net 0 value (with some exceptions).

Ryan graves based on his previous play, went, tested the market, and the market told him he was worth 4.5 million dollars a year with no other draft capital involved.

Since then, his play has dropped to a level below what it previously was. So his value drops below said 4.5 million AAV.

Unless you’re suggesting graves took a discount to play in Pittsburgh, which I disagree with.

In order for a team to want to pay for Graves (especially with all the available UFAs about to come) they would likely have had to:

Viewed graves as a player worth more than 4.5 million, and in that case they probably made him an offer above that which he declined to play in Pittsburgh.

Not be on graves M-NTC, I’d imagine a number of the teams above (if they exist) would be on said NTC if he took less money to not play for them

Not have had their perception dropped by Graves recent lowered level of play.

Generally signing UFAs from other teams is like a car, it loses 20% of its value the second you drive it off the lot

That's not how things work. Graves left NJ because NJ has/have a bevy of young dmen ready to make the jump and wanted to keep Meier. NJ had different priorities which had nothing to do with Graves' value.

As far as your other thoughts, I honestly don't even know what you're getting at. My point is a good proven player having a bad year doesn't make him a cap-dump or in position for his team to have to retain or pay another team to take him. I also stated that if he was two years in and nothing changed? Then yeah, they'd probably have to pay or retain.

In this scenario, GM's will recognize a good player with a bad year/bad fit and capitalize by acquiring him at a discounted price. If Graves was moved, the Pens probably get a 3rd, maybe a little less or they may have to take another contract back with a player in a similar situation. That's like saying NJ would have to retain on Meier if they wanted to move him and we both know that's not the case and relative to Graves' season, Meier is having a far worse one.

Meier was signed on a self admitted discount as an RFA. He was not able to test the market. So we have no idea how the market views him (other than the gluttony of trade offers SJS recieved)

Graves went to the open market and came back with 4.5 mill AAV.

Who is this team that views graves as worth = or more to 4.5 million?

If they viewed him as more, why didn’t they offer him more in UFA.

If they did and graves declined, there is a very significant chance they are one of the 12 teams on graves NTC.

Even if there’s a team that did view graves as worth more than 4.5 mill AAV in the offseason, there’s a very real chance their perception has lowered after his lack of success this year.

It’s very rare a team can trade a struggling player they acquired in unrestricted free agency for +ve value

I'm sorry, man, but everything you're stating just really makes zero sense. Your line of thought is not how things work.

Graves at 4.5 mill was available for FREE in the offseason. He was an UNRESTRICTED FREE AGENT.

Yes GMs will capitalize, if Dubas will pay them to take Graves.

But paying value for a struggling guy you could have had for free isn’t something teams tend to do.

Ryan graves was an UNRESTRICTED FREE AGENT. Every single team in the league had the opportunity to acquire him, coming off a very good season, without giving up draft capital.

Why would a team now, with graves struggling, pay draft capital for an asset they could have had for free in the offseason?

Sorry, man, and i know this for an actual fact, but this is not how it works.

Trust me when I tell you, as someone who's worked in the industry, you're wrong.

Which part is incorrect? Are you denying the fact that all 32 teams had the opportunity to sign Ryan Graves this offseason for 4.5 million (or more if they valued him as such), if they wished without giving up any assets.

Are you denying graves struggles this year?

Are you denying graves 12 team NTC that would prevent a number of potential suitors from acquiring him at all?