+/- is a very skewed stat a player can be on the bench for 90% of a play then step on as a goal is scored having absolutely no influence on the play and it counts as a plus for him if his team scores or a minus if the other team scores. Using +/- to support your arguement of who is the best defenseman is like using goals scored as an argument for who is the best goalie.

OMFG your kidding right! Some lame brain "hockey guy" who has over 100k subscribers on YouTube must mean he is some sort of Hockey guru who works for TSN, Sportsnet or ESPN right! Anyone who knows anything about hockey knows that +/- is the most overrated stat there is.

guys he just joined capfriendly yesterday let’s cut him some slack...

Its helpful to determine impact
If you have a + you had a positive impact
But if you were a - then you had a negative impact

Its okay lol. Ive been a hockey fan for over 20 years. Im just getting into the interweb stuff now

i know ahahah just warning you...things can get really heated on here really fast!! have fun with it though!!

Last time I checked, he was the one who thousands of people go to for hockey opinions because he is smart and reliable

You are just some guy behind a screen

Ive had my fair share of arguements in my life, a couple more cant hurt eh?

I don't claim to be a hockey guru but when guys like Bob Mackenzie or Craig Button or Brian Burke or Don Cherry say that +/- is an overrated stat. I tend to listen to them over some guy on YouTube who has fooled a bunch of morons into believing he knows everything about hockey.

Congrats on being a hockey fan for over 20 years that's cute! I was a hockey fan 20 years before you were born. That doesn't mean anything except you like watching the best sport on the planet.

Joined capfriendly to spam Armchair GM with Top 10 lists. I didn't realize this was Armchair journalist.

Shannon comes off as a regular fan who just likes to play with numbers, talk about hockey and try different things. I love that guy and agree with a lot of what he says. By no means do I perceive him as an authority and I don't see him as perceiving himself that way.

Also a lot of NHL players themselves talk about +/- being an overrated stat. James Wisniewski's rant on Spittin' Chiclets about empty net goals messing up an offensive Dman's +/- is pure gold.

Lets look at those names you just mentioned

MacKenzie-RETIRED
Button-FIRED AFTER 1 SEASON AS GM
Burke-FIRED BY THE LEAFS
Cherry-FIRED BY SPORTSNET

So next time you tell me about some random TV guys, check to see if you are reaching in the trash can or recycling bin

On your first point I never even heard of the hockey guy until the OP brought him up. The OP was going on about how the hockey guy is so knowledgeable because he had 100k subscribers. I guess I was being presumptuous when I ranted on about him. My apologies on that. I have since looked him up and saw that he does not in fact claim to be the great all knowing guru that the OP claims or at least seem to believe he is.

He's a YouTube entertainer with interesting views and opinions. He gets his news from the same sources the average fan does. I love Shannon but he is no credible authority. I agree with a lot he has to say but I will not ever say "Shannon said it, so it's true."



If you have a +, you were on the ice when your team scored, it does not determine if you were a driver behind that or not.
But if you have a -, you were on the ice when your team let in a goal, it does not determine if you were a driver behind that or not.

Anthony DeAngelo is a strong offensive defenseman with a swiss cheese defensive game and a bad attitude. I can see why you'd consider him for your list, but I cannot see how he was better than Klefbom, Makar, Hughes, Fox or Reilly to name a few. I do not think you take into consideration the defensive aspect of a defenceman very heavily. Which makes you perfect for Norris voting.

So because they are retired or fired means they forgot everything they ever knew about hockey then right!

Mackenzie - one of the most respected names in hockey whether it's the NHL or IIHF he knows his stuff.

Burke - former player former GM of several NHL teams for over 20 years won a Stanley Cup and is currently an analyst on Sportsnet. Yeah he definitely knows nothing about hockey.

Button - former player Former GM Stanley cup Champion. Again knows nothing about the sport.

Cherry - former player, former coach, multiple Stanley cup Champion knows nothing about hockey cause he was fired for his racial remarks (A firing I believe was long overdue)

BTW The average tenure for a GM in the NHL is 2-5 years.

MacKenzie-RETIRED -> So? How does this affect his opinion? You retire and suddenly you don't know hat you're talking about?
Button-FIRED AFTER 1 SEASON AS GM -> So? Things in life have to work out perfect for you in order for your opinion to mean something? He's been a major part of NHL scouting for years. He's watched today's NHL grow from the time they were kids. He tried a management position and didn't work out.
Burke-FIRED BY THE LEAFS -> So? This is such a massive oversimplification of his career and is pretty old news.
Cherry-FIRED BY SPORTSNET -> So? Coach's Corner was one of the most watched parts of hockey for decades. We all know how much viewership means to you (Hockey Guy has how many subscribers?)

The funniest part of all this is you referring to all of these guys with huge amounts of hands on experience either reporting for or working for NHL teams. They were in the heart of what was going on. But their opinions are NOTHING compared to Shannon the Hockey Guy in his living room. This HAS to be a troll account. I mean who would pick Greg Pateryn?

Oh word. Is this meant for fantasy hockey? I assumed it was about playing hockey games.

Hey so I see there’s a lot going on here - I think this list is brutal but that’s not the point anymore. Defence is a major aspect in hockey (objectively and obviously).

+/- is NOT************ a stat teams/ analytics specialists use when valuing a players defensive upside. I for one use stats (adv and regular) and seeing eye (what I see per game). But you cannot use a stat like plus minus unless there is an outlier IMO... or is that still dumb? FOR EXAMPLE:

Go look at the Carolina hurricanes roster players from 2019-2020 stats overview. You won’t see any adv stats really (using the score for example). There is clearly an outlier. There are many players above + and below - and there’s guys who are like 20+. Than you have a SINGLE player who’s +/- is negative twenty. Jake Gardiner. Every other player is a reasonable +/- or highly +. The sole player with a dramatic difference is Gardiner. I am no fan of Gardiner but that got me thinking is Gardiner really that bad... and when I searched it up - the results were not that bad - they were decent and reasonably good-average defensive stats meaning he’s not as bad as we all joke about (leafs game 7 blah, it’s all fun tho). So if I’m using plus minus I’d say Gardiner is waste, but actually their are articles from canes writers that show this is false and he’s just been unlucky as to other people’s points about +/- being affected no matter what you do. I could hit the cross bar on a wrister that beat the goalie and it bounces to center ice and slides in my empty net with the goalie pulled. I did everything right and my line mates did nothing wrong but we got a minus...

My point being you’re either a troll account or new, which isn’t a fault of your own or a slight to you, to the statistical side of hockey. I find the points you made about bob mack just stupid as he is a incredibly respected hockey view, cherry which is up for debate, burkey who is actual very smart if you listen to some of his pieces on all his work, and button who once again is a smart broadcaster and analyst = I also have viewed the hockey guy but he IS NOT a analyst. Now you can still dislike the mentioned names but their opinion is objectively better than the hockey guys as they are paid to do this job and while the hockey guy is a valuable voice and helps spread the game he is not a voice I would use in a document arguing a point.

Points doesn’t mean everything.

Nhl 21 might honestly have better rankings.... Yikes

I'm surprised that there's that many senior citizens on youtube...

+/- is a horrible stat to judge a players skill. It doesn't take into account who's in your net, what percentage offensive vs. defensive zone starts you have, the strength of your line mates, anything to do with PP/PK, etc.

Here's an excellent article to explain what a dumb stat it is. https://hockey-graphs.com/2016/11/01/behind-the-numbers-why-plusminus-is-the-worst-statistic-in-hockey-and-should-be-abolished/

:-D nooo waaay Greg.
Have you heard about Makar for example?

because he is a defenseman and atrocious with his primary job.

his primary job is to put the puck in the other team's net

He was the 4th most effective defenseman at doing just that this season