If you dont follow the models, how can you call them skewed???

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the team that wins a hockey game is the one with more goals. Not whoever wins the Corsi battle or has better zone entry %. Points are literally goals and setting up goals. Which is what wins you games.

There's certainly more to a player than just their point totals, but at the end of the day, these underlying statistics are often times heavily affected by things other than the individual player. Linemates, opposition, puck luck, team structure, etc. all play a huge factor in what these numbers look like. While these also apply for point totals, nobody is going to say that Val Nichushkin had even a comparable year to Draisaitl, because Draisaitl's offense is so elite.

Ok then f*ck off. There's literally no point in talking to you if you don't have an interest in the topic at hand.

KRAK is king. Thanks for the support buddy. I’m just gonna drop this whole argument because it’s going in circles

His offense wasn't even that good. He strongly outperformed his xGF/60 and his CF/60 impact was negative. He also had a sh% of 19.7 and oiSH% of 14.4 which is far above average.

Still waiting for you to explain how the stats are skewed.

A. Points/goals are at most 1/2 the game, you also have to prevent goals...

B. If you're consistently on the ice for lots of goals for and none against (Nuke) but don't get a ton of points, I'd still think you're generally impacting the game in a positive way

I already did but you told me to F off so I’m dropping it. I literally wrote about the standard deviation of error and how no model is 100% perfect. These models are no exception.

Yes but no one is denying that Drai is weak defensively and Nichuskin is solid in his own end. The issue is, the weighting of the data. Drai’s offensive output more than makes up for his weak defence. I don’t know how the models weigh the data but to me there’s an issue when a player like Nichuskin who doesn’t generate a whole lot of offence is viewed higher than Drai who is a generating machine.

All you said was the equivalent of "blue bar make me cry"

And i said that the variance in most of these models isn't that big, and in almost every case the average/mean (which I'd assume EW CH and MP use) is very close to roughly 90% of the of the "possible" outcomes

Just add me to your ignore list then. I’m done having this conversation with you and Chair guy. You are not going to change your opinion and I am not going to change mine.

Yea it's almost like Draisaitl isn't as good as you think he is.

This question isn't meant to be demeaning in any way, but it might come off that way because tone is tough to interpret through text, but how much of him did you actually watch? What you see isn't what the numbers will show, and the game isn't won on a spreadsheet or a graph.

For starters, Corsi is incredibly pointless to me. This is counting shot attempts against a player simply because he was on the ice when it happened. It could've be shots from the point, transitions against him, shots from the other side of the ice, mistakes from teammates, and they all count against him. There are way too many factors out of one individual player's control that contribute to shot attempts for that stat to be taken seriously, in my opinion. xGF is better than Corsi no doubt, but to me it still has a lot of the same issues. Neither stat is something I find worth noting in a player unless it's extremely good or bad (>65% or <35%).

Yes, his shooting percentage was excellent. Nobody is saying that he's going to continue scoring at that rate forever, but this is a guy who scored 50 goals last year. So many people love to just point at a high SH% to explain a goal total, but are we just not going to consider that he's an incredibly accurate shooter, especially from dangerous areas? When I watch him play, I see a player who is able to generate a lot of high quality and dangerous chances for his team, and he capitalizes on it. The goal scoring instincts that players have don't show up in these numbers, but everyone who has played the game past the age of 14 knows that it exists.

You say points don’t matter but scoring goals and generating offence is the most important role of a forward. Over the last 2 season Drai has hit 100 points twice. That isn’t a fluke. He is an elite offensive creator who yeah probably does suck defensively but that’s not his role.

Nuke actually generates a lot of offense, 4th best 5v5 GF/60 on the Avs playing largely with offensive dynamos like PEB, Matt Calvert, and Ian Cole and Sam Girard...

I'll change my opinion if you show me actual evidence that the models skewed to the point that they purposefully make a player better or worse than they actually are, and correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you the one that said "I don't care what any of you say" with regards to "spreadsheets".

But that's still part of his overall impact

The eye test is absolutely useless. You cannot objectively evaluate a player using the eye test.

I'm not saying his shooting percentage was excellent, I'm saying it was highly inflated. His shot% last year was even higher than it was this year.

Yea that's why stats like xGF and CF impact are important to look at to see who actually generates offense instead of just looking at points and going "big number good"

You must be a troll. Analytics in hockey are literally trying quantifying the eye test. But there are way too many situations in an individual game, especially over the course of a whole season, where these numbers get skewed by factors out of an individual players' control. You go ahead and take Jake Guentzel, I'll take Sidney Crosby. You take Dominik Kubalik, I'll take Patrick Kane.

No, those are micro stats, macro stats measure a players overall impact on the game

Nobody should just objectively look at points. It's easy to see with your eyes when someone rides the coattails of their linemates for points (Artem Animisov when he was between Panarin and Kane, Kassian playing with McDavid, etc.) but players that consistently produce offense at high levels regardless of who they play with or against are good players.

I just added them to my ignore list bro, not worth the time.

Imagine blocking people bc they disagree with you 😂😂