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Could Toronto Target A Cheap RHD

Créé par: AnalyticsGeek
Équipe: 2020-21 Maple Leafs de Toronto
Date de création initiale: 13 juill. 2020
Publié: 13 juill. 2020
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
Description
It would be ideal for Toronto to add someone like DeMelo in free agency, but as of right now, I think Toronto’s defense corps is set for next season the way it currently is. However, I wonder if they could go after a young RHD prospect on ELC, perhaps they can work him up the lineup and have him turn into the next John Marino. If you know any players that could fit this scenario, please comment down below.
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                          15 juill. 2020 à 14 h 51
                          #101
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                          Quoting: mhockey91
                          That one backfired on you lmfao. Even leafs fans don’t think he’s a top 10 D lol


                          What are you talking about. Just because @palhal does not think he is top 10 defenceman in the NHL when he is fully healthy does not change my opinion. You need to wait for @PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood and @Jamiepo to respond before you start jumping for joy. @MitchMarnerElite You owe me a favour. Is Rielly when he is healthy a top 10 defenceman in the NHL?
                          15 juill. 2020 à 14 h 56
                          #102
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                          Quoting: TML_Tika
                          What are you talking about. Just because @palhal does not think he is top 10 defenceman in the NHL when he is fully healthy does not change my opinion. You need to wait for @PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood and @Jamiepo to respond before you start jumping for joy. @MitchMarnerElite You owe me a favour. Is Rielly when he is healthy a top 10 defenceman in the NHL?


                          He’s had one season in his NHL career where he received ANY Norris votes. Last year he was top 10. But it very well could’ve been a career year. Like PalHal said, how can a D be top 10 when he’s not trusted on the PK?
                          15 juill. 2020 à 15 h 5
                          #103
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                          Quoting: mhockey91
                          He’s had one season in his NHL career where he received ANY Norris votes. Last year he was top 10. But it very well could’ve been a career year. Like PalHal said, how can a D be top 10 when he’s not trusted on the PK?


                          First of all... yes he plays pk. I’m not big on top this or that but he is a great Dman. He’s also a great person which goes a long way too. He’s good defensively maybe not great but he’s very smart when pinching.
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                          15 juill. 2020 à 15 h 27
                          #104
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                          Quoting: Jamiepo
                          First of all... yes he plays pk. I’m not big on top this or that but he is a great Dman. He’s also a great person which goes a long way too. He’s good defensively maybe not great but he’s very smart when pinching.


                          He’s ok defensively at best. Cmon you can’t even tell yourself he’s good. He’s viewed as a one way offensive d man. I personally think sandin could be better, but once again comparing him to lidstrom or Borje is crazy
                          15 juill. 2020 à 15 h 40
                          #105
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                          Quoting: mhockey91
                          He’s ok defensively at best. Cmon you can’t even tell yourself he’s good. He’s viewed as a one way offensive d man. I personally think sandin could be better, but once again comparing him to lidstrom or Borje is crazy


                          Like I said he is good defensively not great. Compared to Barrie he is lidstrom lol.
                          15 juill. 2020 à 17 h 10
                          #106
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                          Quoting: Jamiepo
                          First of all... yes he plays pk. I’m not big on top this or that but he is a great Dman. He’s also a great person which goes a long way too. He’s good defensively maybe not great but he’s very smart when pinching.


                          I attended Leafs game in Vancouver a couple of years ago and sat next to friends of Rielly and told me they thought he should be the next captain of the Leafs. In all reality, he is the real captain of the Leafs so you are 100% correct that he is a great person.
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                          15 juill. 2020 à 18 h 16
                          #107
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                          Quoting: JackBurton
                          I'm not saying the value isn't there in getting a 2nd for Regula, but personally from what I've seen of him, I don't want to part with him. I think the kid has massive potential. So if I'm Stan, I pass.


                          That’s fair, I think Regula is going to to be an excellent top 4 defenceman. Just thought with Murphy, Boqvist & Mitchell in Chicago, he might be expendable.
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                          15 juill. 2020 à 18 h 19
                          #108
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                          Quoting: mhockey91
                          I agree with that analysis. Which is why I think a Dermott trade is entirely possible. He SHOULD be playing more and he’s not.


                          I hope that if they move Dermott, he’ll be part of a package to get a legit top 4 RHD (like Weegar). Dermott looks to have all the tools to be that top 4 defenseman, so if he realizes that potential elsewhere while TOR is still struggling, it’s gonna look bad.
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                          15 juill. 2020 à 18 h 22
                          #109
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                          Quoting: Miles_Togo
                          The Leafs' rely on Ceci to play with Rielly when they are protecting the lead and when they are playing against tough teams - hence Ceci played with Barrie during the Leafs' last game and that is the season - their 2-1 win over Tampa - and why Ceci was in the 80th percentile for QoC this season (higher than Muzzin) and Barrie was in the 31st percentile. The problem for the Leafs' all season was finding a set up that worked with getting the strengths out of Barrie while trying to minimize the weaknesses. Muzzin and Barrie didn't work. Muzzin and Holl did. Barrie and Sandin together were a raging tire fire. Ceci and Sandin worked very well together.

                          Leafs fans whine and moan constantly that their D sucks. And when they get a D who spent the whole season taking the defensive situations so Barrie could take all the offensive ones, and who did so while getting scored on less often than any other Leafs' D, having an xGA rate lower than any other their other D (except for Dermott) and with the lowest rate of high danger chances against - and remember did so while going up against very high QoC and being used in a defensive role, fans do nothing but whine and moan about him.

                          The people who know the most such as Keefe and Dubas completely disagree with you.


                          Quoting: Leafs_and_Sens_Fan
                          Are you his relative or something? I've seen him play in Ottawa and Toronto. He's a solid 3rd pairing D.

                          Nothing more. Nothing less.

                          Ceci got knocked out of his job by Holl and was playing on the 3rd pairing with Sandin at the end of the season.


                          There was an article written about why Ceci & Rielly were horrible when paired together. The issue was, Rielly’s inability to prevent scoring chances & stop the offensive zone cycle sunk them. Obviously it doesn’t help with Ceci’s inability to move the puck, but he has actually been quite good at preventing scoring chances.

                          https://hbanalytics.substack.com/p/cody-ceci-the-most-misunderstood
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                          15 juill. 2020 à 18 h 23
                          #110
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                          Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
                          I hope that if they move Dermott, he’ll be part of a package to get a legit top 4 RHD (like Weegar). Dermott looks to have all the tools to be that top 4 defenseman, so if he realizes that potential elsewhere while TOR is still struggling, it’s gonna look bad.


                          Yes. That’s an insightful comment and not a troll job so thank you for that. You’re hit or miss with some of your posts so idk why you bother with trolling people
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                          15 juill. 2020 à 18 h 32
                          #111
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                          Quoting: TML_Tika
                          @PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood @palhal @Jamiepo Can you guys also help me out on the following question.

                          Question#2 Do you honestly think the Leafs will trade Dermott this offseason in a package for a legit RHD?

                          Question#3 Do you think Dermott has the real potential to be a top pairing defenceman?

                          Note - I am asking you this question because I actually think he does and that he is being developed properly and being slow cooked and I truly believe it takes longer to develope a great NHL defenceman and Dermott is only 23 years old and he has big time upside.


                          Quoting: TML_Tika
                          So i am biased for ranking Rielly in the top 10 defenceman in the entire NHL? @PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood @palhal @Jamiepo Can you guys please give me your honest opinion to the following question.

                          Question#1 Do you think Morgan Rielly should be ranked in the top 10 defenceman in the NHL?


                          @mhockey91

                          I think Rielly is an interesting case. Based on the stats, he is actually the best defenceman in the league at generating offence & arguably the best in transition as well. However, this defensive contributions are amongst the worst in the league. It’s hard to rank someone in the top 10 for the defence position when their defending is so bad.

                          Another thing is, Rielly has never really played alongside a reliable shutdown partner. Franson, Hunwick & Hainsey are not very good at defence, therefore, they don’t compliment his skillset. Ceci is pretty good at preventing scoring chances, but he can’t move the puck. Despite all this, Rielly’s market value per performance is around 10 Million. I think alongside a partner that is competent, he’d similar to John Carlson.

                          I think it’s fair to put both Muzzin & Rielly amongst the top 10 LHDs in the league, cuz based on their stats, they are probably good enough to make it.
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                          15 juill. 2020 à 22 h 21
                          #112
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                          Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
                          That’s fair, I think Regula is going to to be an excellent top 4 defenceman. Just thought with Murphy, Boqvist & Mitchell in Chicago, he might be expendable.


                          The Hawks are such a defensive clown car lately that I doubt anyone is expendable...
                          16 juill. 2020 à 0 h 19
                          #113
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                          Quoting: MitchMarnerElite
                          There was an article written about why Ceci & Rielly were horrible when paired together. The issue was, Rielly’s inability to prevent scoring chances & stop the offensive zone cycle sunk them. Obviously it doesn’t help with Ceci’s inability to move the puck, but he has actually been quite good at preventing scoring chances.


                          The article looks at statistics and tries to fit ideas to what the statistics are telling the author. I think that it gets things very much wrong because it is not analyzing games to see if there are alternative reasons that explain why the statistics say what they say. When an author uses statistics to show that Ceci was great defensively this season, but had been very poor previously to this season chances are it is going off the rails. I don't think that Ceci was as good defensively as the article claims (he was still good) or that Ceci was close to as bad offensively as the article claims. But the article uses statistics to show that Rielly and Ceci should never be played together. Certainly the Leafs have all those statistics and a whole lot more. They have Rielly and Ceci together in camp so far.

                          I am not a big fan of Ceci. I think that he has done what the team asked him to do quite admirably, but he doesn't bring the physicality or the meanness that I want in a defender who plays the role that Ceci was given. Now that is a personal bias and the team may or may not care about a defender in that role bringing those other elements. I am not looking for physicality and meanness in every Leafs' D, but do think that 2, or perhaps 3, D are needed in that fashion similar to what Colorado has right now.

                          I will use CF/60 and CA/60 for no other reason than CF and CA were one of the metrics that the article used. The other metrics would be similar.
                          For the first 23 games of the season (those under Babcock) Ceci had a CF/60 of 62.6 while playing with Rielly and a CF/60 of 68.4 when playing without Rielly (those numbers would rank him 10th and 1st among all D who played at least 500 minutes TOI this season). His CA/60 was 57.5 while playing with Rielly and 60.6 without Rielly. After the coaching change he was 56.1 CF/60 and 63.9 CA/60 while playing with Rielly and 48.6 CF/60 and 50.6 CA/60 without Rielly.

                          That is a massive change, both when playing with Rielly and even more so when playing without Rielly, that occurred with the coaching change, but if you watch the games both from early in the season and from later on you can see that there was a massive change in how Ceci was deployed. Before, surprisingly as it was with Babcock, Ceci played a normal shift. After the change, Ceci's deployment changed to a very defensive role. This had a lot to do with trying to get Barrie as much of an offensive role as possible. This meant that Ceci had a tendency to still play with Rielly when the Leafs were either protecting a lead or when they were going up against a particularly strong offensive opponent (ie Tampa Bay in the final game of the season). But when not partnered with Rielly, the goal was very much to get Barrie out in offensive situations whenever and however possible. What I mean by this is that Ceci could be out on the ice in his own zone early in a shift and when the Leafs' get the puck and start heading up the ice Ceci goes off and Barrie goes on. This inflates Barrie's offensive advanced stats and deflates Ceci's offensive advanced stats. And this very much happened after the coaching change. It was a change that makes sense, but it also makes the advanced stats misleading.

                          Before the coaching change Ceci and Barrie were as likely to be out on the ice as the other if the Leafs' had the lead or were trailing or were tied. All three were within 4% and two of the three were within 1% which is completely extraordinary - but not a good indication of coaching to the players' strengths. The CF/60 for those three game states were also very close for Barrie and Ceci.

                          After the coaching change Barrie played 35% more when the Leafs' were trailing, and Ceci played almost as much more than Barrie when the Leafs' had the lead. But the CF/60 were very interesting. When the Leafs had the lead Barrie's CF/60 was 52. Ceci's CF/60 was also 52. When the game was tied Barrie's CF/60 was 69, Ceci's was 53. When the Leafs' were trailing Barrie's CF/60 was 70 and Ceci's was 45. From even, to Barrie being up by 16 to Barrie being up by 25. Ceci didn't become worse offensively when the Leafs' were trailing - the deployment changed significantly.

                          I am using statistics to make my point, but I also do so by re-watching and analyzing player deployment and how they influence advanced statistics. In the case of Ceci and Barrie, I did so a couple months ago, but I try to do so with as many situations as I can that I come across where the advanced stats community is at odds with coaching staff of a team. My assessment of Ceci. He is a top-4 D and will be on whatever team is on next year. He is pretty good, but not great defensively. He does things in the defensive zone the Leafs' lack (which is why Sandin looked better while playing with Ceci than he did with other D like Barrie or Liljegren). He is not a good offensive D, but the statistical appearance that he is dragging offensive numbers down is due to deployment and timing of on-the-fly shift changes (which was visible when watching games if you were watching for this issue and recording when it happens) as was outlined (not specific to Ceci, but as a method in general) by Tyler Dellow in The Athletic several years ago.
                          16 juill. 2020 à 17 h 40
                          #114
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                          Quoting: Miles_Togo
                          The article looks at statistics and tries to fit ideas to what the statistics are telling the author. I think that it gets things very much wrong because it is not analyzing games to see if there are alternative reasons that explain why the statistics say what they say. When an author uses statistics to show that Ceci was great defensively this season, but had been very poor previously to this season chances are it is going off the rails. I don't think that Ceci was as good defensively as the article claims (he was still good) or that Ceci was close to as bad offensively as the article claims. But the article uses statistics to show that Rielly and Ceci should never be played together. Certainly the Leafs have all those statistics and a whole lot more. They have Rielly and Ceci together in camp so far.

                          I am not a big fan of Ceci. I think that he has done what the team asked him to do quite admirably, but he doesn't bring the physicality or the meanness that I want in a defender who plays the role that Ceci was given. Now that is a personal bias and the team may or may not care about a defender in that role bringing those other elements. I am not looking for physicality and meanness in every Leafs' D, but do think that 2, or perhaps 3, D are needed in that fashion similar to what Colorado has right now.

                          I will use CF/60 and CA/60 for no other reason than CF and CA were one of the metrics that the article used. The other metrics would be similar.
                          For the first 23 games of the season (those under Babcock) Ceci had a CF/60 of 62.6 while playing with Rielly and a CF/60 of 68.4 when playing without Rielly (those numbers would rank him 10th and 1st among all D who played at least 500 minutes TOI this season). His CA/60 was 57.5 while playing with Rielly and 60.6 without Rielly. After the coaching change he was 56.1 CF/60 and 63.9 CA/60 while playing with Rielly and 48.6 CF/60 and 50.6 CA/60 without Rielly.

                          That is a massive change, both when playing with Rielly and even more so when playing without Rielly, that occurred with the coaching change, but if you watch the games both from early in the season and from later on you can see that there was a massive change in how Ceci was deployed. Before, surprisingly as it was with Babcock, Ceci played a normal shift. After the change, Ceci's deployment changed to a very defensive role. This had a lot to do with trying to get Barrie as much of an offensive role as possible. This meant that Ceci had a tendency to still play with Rielly when the Leafs were either protecting a lead or when they were going up against a particularly strong offensive opponent (ie Tampa Bay in the final game of the season). But when not partnered with Rielly, the goal was very much to get Barrie out in offensive situations whenever and however possible. What I mean by this is that Ceci could be out on the ice in his own zone early in a shift and when the Leafs' get the puck and start heading up the ice Ceci goes off and Barrie goes on. This inflates Barrie's offensive advanced stats and deflates Ceci's offensive advanced stats. And this very much happened after the coaching change. It was a change that makes sense, but it also makes the advanced stats misleading.

                          Before the coaching change Ceci and Barrie were as likely to be out on the ice as the other if the Leafs' had the lead or were trailing or were tied. All three were within 4% and two of the three were within 1% which is completely extraordinary - but not a good indication of coaching to the players' strengths. The CF/60 for those three game states were also very close for Barrie and Ceci.

                          After the coaching change Barrie played 35% more when the Leafs' were trailing, and Ceci played almost as much more than Barrie when the Leafs' had the lead. But the CF/60 were very interesting. When the Leafs had the lead Barrie's CF/60 was 52. Ceci's CF/60 was also 52. When the game was tied Barrie's CF/60 was 69, Ceci's was 53. When the Leafs' were trailing Barrie's CF/60 was 70 and Ceci's was 45. From even, to Barrie being up by 16 to Barrie being up by 25. Ceci didn't become worse offensively when the Leafs' were trailing - the deployment changed significantly.

                          I am using statistics to make my point, but I also do so by re-watching and analyzing player deployment and how they influence advanced statistics. In the case of Ceci and Barrie, I did so a couple months ago, but I try to do so with as many situations as I can that I come across where the advanced stats community is at odds with coaching staff of a team. My assessment of Ceci. He is a top-4 D and will be on whatever team is on next year. He is pretty good, but not great defensively. He does things in the defensive zone the Leafs' lack (which is why Sandin looked better while playing with Ceci than he did with other D like Barrie or Liljegren). He is not a good offensive D, but the statistical appearance that he is dragging offensive numbers down is due to deployment and timing of on-the-fly shift changes (which was visible when watching games if you were watching for this issue and recording when it happens) as was outlined (not specific to Ceci, but as a method in general) by Tyler Dellow in The Athletic several years ago.


                          Wow, thanks for the in-depth analysis. Now that we understand the player usage better, it is easier to understand why Ceci's offensive contributions are bad since he obviously isn't put in the position to generate offence. I think this player deployment says a lot about how one-dimensional Barrie is. Really makes you wonder if things would be better had they acquired a more 2-way guy than him. I understand that at this point, Ceci is probably the most reasonable partner for Rielly since his stay-at-home presence will most likely compliment a pure offensive defenceman. I'm not really concerned about his lack of offence, it's moreso his inability to move the puck in transition. He can continue to be a workhorse & suppress scoring chances but if he can't get the puck out, then they will be undersiege since Rielly will do nothing to help him. This makes me wonder if they could play Dermott w/Rielly since he is more mobile & also pretty good defensively, but it doesn't seem like the team is ready to give him that opportunity yet.
                           
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