Sandin and Liljegren are not second pairing. Look at their time on ice. They are third pairing.

You're gonna hate me for putting CAL on my list too........you can check it out on the thread LOL

Lol, because Keefe is stubborn and has the pairings like that. Check out the underlying stats, especially Lilly before saying something that you can only back up with a stubborn coach.

Sandin and Liljegren are not second pairing. Look at their time on ice. They are third pairing.

Sigh, the whole trade idea what about him. I'm mot sure what you are yapping about now tbh. The funny thing is you're talking about him disrespecful but you are calling him Douchy? You've also implied that we dont watch your team because we are sleep, so I guess your opinion is just better? You're an odd and hypocritical cat man.

No I am not defending him because he is a "leafer" like me, I think he is a big boy and can handle himself. My point is that a lot of fans get all pissed off when people don't agree with their assessment of the their players. It's called an opinion and if you want to see disrespect take a look around and see what he is replying to half the time.

Ok...nice rational. Well, I think Hoglander is a first liner even though he is back in the minors. Facts are hard to accept....I know.

i call him douchy when he belittles people,which is often.i also cant understand most of what your yapping about.it just looks like your sleeping because,canucks are never worth it.im odd and hypocritical,look in the mirror catman,wow u really represent leaf fans well.go back and read what hes said about every canuck, 99 percent of the time its a over pay.a 1st and newhook,stankoven straight up,come on hes not close.i have said all along i hope they resign BO,but if not, its a 1st,a top a level prospect and a good young roster player.not just one of them or a b level prospect.and he bring something very close.so aquire stankoven or newhook for your leafs.and i wont comment on it because i could care less.

Sigh, you he belittles poor fans and you complain about it by doing the same thing to everyone else. You say all his takes are wrong because you don't agree. If you would read, a lot of his posts that have the Leafs on them say....now pay attention, no worth it to the Leafs. There are a lot of butthurt fans that take that as "No way your players suck!!" It happens on all sides, but these are all Vancouver proposals so it is coming up.

Relax man, if you don't agree who cares...it is a forum. You can pick out dozens of people who are less respectful, but this is your team so I guess now it is your duty to jump in.

No wait now I am convinced...Dutchies, stop being a prick all the time. Everyone can take shots at us all the time, but it is only the high road for you!!

You big jerk.

Sigh, you he belittles poor fans and you complain about it by doing the same thing to everyone else. You say all his takes are wrong because you don't agree. If you would read, a lot of his posts that have the Leafs on them say....now pay attention, no worth it to the Leafs. There are a lot of butthurt fans that take that as "No way your players suck!!" It happens on all sides, but these are all Vancouver proposals so it is coming up.

Relax man, if you don't agree who cares...it is a forum. You can pick out dozens of people who are less respectful, but this is your team so I guess now it is your duty to jump in.

No wait now I am convinced...Dutchies, stop being a prick all the time. Everyone can take shots at us all the time, but it is only the high road for you!!

You big jerk Dutchies!!

And you called me Catman, because name calling is cool I guess, especially for the guy whining about being respectful. Quick question...should I be offended or know what that means?

I do hope you get a good return for Horvat though

I have never belittled anyone, but him when he says put down your crack pipe.i dont read leaf posts,I DONT CARE ABOUT THE LEAFS.i cant really understand what your saying,but im not exchanging insults with what we call out in the west, eastern creeps and bums anymore.im done with u.so dont expect another response,i really dont care what leafs fans think.

I do like his nickname for you, cause you are one cool cat. But I'd stop wasting my breathe on this guy.............some people are just beyond reason.

Wait...are you belittling me now, you little *****??!! 🤣

Sigh...that was just dumb. You are talking about facts and trying to act like a smart ss, yet you cleverly avoided checking the underlying stats...you know as I mentioned. Give that a shot. A lot of sites will let you compare him to other players too...or maybe watch a game yourself.

Then you might have a clue, but something tells me you won't. When Lilly is paired with Rielly on the first pairing to give him some stability....no no wait you are clearly the expert so forget those facts too.

Wait what am I talking about? Underlying numbers and fancy stats aren't facts. Thanks for educating me on...ummm something?

Ok....Dailyfaceoff web site is clearly wrong then over the opinion of a leaf fan. And yes, the NHL web site is obviously lying when they post the players time on ice. Must be different from your stopwatch.
Your opinion is not FACTS. Facts are facts. Like when I say, lily and San have the lowest icetime of the 6 leaf D men....IT IS A FACT!!!

Ok champ, this is all how stubborn Keefe deploys his defence. Look at any stats that matter and he is a very very good dman that should be top 4...where he actually does play a lot for us actually. I guess you are correct that he is playing third pairing minutes a lot, well except when he is not I guess. Your point that his trade value is crap because he is a third pairing dman is ridiculous because he sure as hell would not be third pairing if he was traded to Vancouver...just like he should not be here either.

Trade value is...now pay attention here, based on play and not how a player is slotted. I have no clue how you can't understand that.

Look at the real stats and try to back up your nonsensical opinion. I'm referring to the real stats that are meaningful and a reflection of how he plays and not how the coach uses him.

This is a baffling conversation. Dutchies since so many Canuck fans hate you already 🤣 (sorry I had to), do you have anything to add?

Yep...you are right. All Keefe fault that he plays clearly EXCEPTIONAL d men like lily and San less than 800 year old Gio and forgettable D men like Holl and Brodie.
I am not saying they don't have value but it is no where what your and other leafers seem to think they have. These are the same types that figured dermott was worth a top 6 player and kerfoot (who is a clear cap dump) is worth a ton. There is a reason why almost every trade made by leaf fans involve getting rid of kerfoot, lily and San in some sort of combination. In their heart of hearts they know their real value and that is why they are so quickly to trade them away.

Ok champ, this is all how stubborn Keefe deploys his defence. Look at any stats that matter and he is a very very good dman that should be top 4...where he actually does play a lot for us actually. I guess you are correct that he is playing third pairing minutes a lot, well except when he is not I guess. Your point that his trade value is crap because he is a third pairing dman is ridiculous because he sure as hell would not be third pairing if he was traded to Vancouver...just like he should not be here either.

Trade value is...now pay attention here, based on play and not how a player is slotted. I have no clue how you can't understand that.

Look at the real stats and try to back up your nonsensical opinion. I'm referring to the real stats that are meaningful and a reflection of how he plays and not how the coach uses him.

This is a baffling conversation. @Dutchies since so many Canuck fans hate you already 🤣 (sorry I had to), do you have anything to add?

Yep...you are right. All Keefe fault that he plays clearly EXCEPTIONAL d men like lily and San less than 800 year old Gio and forgettable D men like Holl and Brodie.
I am not saying they don't have value but it is no where what your and other leafers seem to think they have. These are the same types that figured dermott was worth a top 6 player and kerfoot (who is a clear cap dump) is worth a ton. There is a reason why almost every trade made by leaf fans involve getting rid of kerfoot, lily and San in some sort of combination. In their heart of hearts they know their real value and that is why they are so quickly to trade them away.

Don't worry Rhea I can come in on this one.

Just don't worry about it. These guys think think Schenn is a top pairing dman and should garner a high pick, when by their own TOI metrics, he's playing bottom pairing minutes..............
Not all Nucks fans hate me............. reelkena and mv21227 are both knowledgeable Canuck (and hockey) fans that I (and you) get along with just fine. There's a number of other ones too.

T_Hip you do realize that Liljgren was supposed to go first or second in his draft year, but fell due to the fact he contract Mono and couldn't play for most of the season.........the Leafs got a steal at #17. He was actually slated on par with Hischier and ahead of Patrick, Heiskanen and Makar. That being said, Makar obviously should have been he #1 pick......but just think: If Liljgren was healthy that season, Makar might have fallen to #5 and you'd have him. That must hurt.

At the end of the day, Dmen usually take longer to mature. It's a fact. Wingers progress quickest, followed by Centers, Dmen and finally goalies. Leafs have been patient with Lilly, and I'm thankful for it, because we almost ruined Luke Schenn's career by playing him 20 minutes a night as an 18 year old on a horrible team.

And honestly, who thinks Kerfoot is worth a ton??? I don't know of any Leaf fans that do. They usually just include them in trades as a cap dump..........

When you are losing an argument that badly, you have to make stuff up I guess.

What do you think about the Horvat trade? Not exactly what people expected eh?

Don't worry Rhea I can come in on this one.

Just don't worry about it. These guys think think Schenn is a top pairing dman and should garner a high pick, when by their own TOI metrics, he's playing bottom pairing minutes..............
Not all Nucks fans hate me............. reelkena and mv21227 are both knowledgeable Canuck (and hockey) fans that I (and you) get along with just fine. There's a number of other ones too.

T_Hip you do realize that Liljgren was supposed to go first or second in his draft year, but fell due to the fact he contract Mono and couldn't play for most of the season.........the Leafs got a steal at #17. He was actually slated on par with Hischier and ahead of Patrick, Heiskanen and Makar. That being said, Makar obviously should have been he #1 pick......but just think: If Liljgren was healthy that season, Makar might have fallen to #5 and you'd have him. That must hurt.

At the end of the day, Dmen usually take longer to mature. It's a fact. Wingers progress quickest, followed by Centers, Dmen and finally goalies. Leafs have been patient with Lilly, and I'm thankful for it, because we almost ruined Luke Schenn's career by playing him 20 minutes a night as an 18 year old on a horrible team.

And honestly, who thinks Kerfoot is worth a ton??? I don't know of any Leaf fans that do. They usually just include them in trades as a cap dump..........

Not what certain Canucks fans thought he would get, but that's an excellent deal for them. Raty is a stud. Beavillier is a good middle 6 guy that can score, but isn't going to hit his potential.. And a first. Right about where I expected.

When you are losing an argument that badly, you have to make stuff up I guess. Hey wait a sec Dutchies, do you have enough average time on ice to have a valid opinion?🤣

What do you think about the Horvat trade? Not exactly what people expected eh?

A B player and a B+/A- prospect plus a first. Isn't that what we were expecting? It's what I was. unless he got packaged with Schenn.

Not what certain Canucks fans thought he would get, but that's an excellent deal for them. Raty is a stud. Beavillier is a good middle 6 guy that can score, but isn't going to hit his potential.. And a first. Right about where I expected.

Yep when I first read it, there was no mention of the pick. I like it for Vancouver fans.

Pick is top 12 protected, but either way, it's still a first.

Pick is top 12 protected, but either way, it's still a first.