You know, this isn't bad. This isn't bad at all. Probably a steep price to pay for Hakanpaa but he does have term. This team would be a lot tougher to play against with Cliff and MacEwen in the lineup and you haven't sacrificed any skill. Likely have to send more to Buffalo though to a dump Ritchie's deal

Why bother with the Dallas trade? You can just add Schenn for depth and have Holl on the 3rd pair. He's absolutely better than Hakanpaa, I would wager it wouldn't take long to be disappointed in Manson as well. His skating is going to frustrate people. Muzzin needs someone with some more speed.

Hakanpaa is better than I think you seem to think. 6'6 220, mobile, actually uses his large frame unlike Holl. Main thing was that he has 3 years left, and could make a good partner for Sandin long term. Manson I somewhat agree, for me it was a toss up between pursuing him or Severson for that reason. But he's defensively sound, reliable, and brings physicality for the playoffs

I absolutely hate that there is some wisdom in getting big heavy defenceman who can't skate for a deep playoff run because by the 3rd round clutching and grabbing takes hold and everything goes. That's just ridiculous, why bother calling penalties in the regular season if it doesn't matter come the playoffs.

I mean when you put Clifford and MacEwen in over Spezza and Engvall you will sacrifice skill, but you'd only do that if it's necessary - just gives us more options in the toolbox to be able to play a variety of styles. Then on D, I would target Hakanpaa and one of Manson or Severson - Manson if you want physicality and pure defensive, and Severson if you want a mobile 2 way D. And yes the term is why i paid that

Holl is very valuable to the Leafs, why trade him for a scratched Luke Schenn

I mean, Anaheim fans don't really need to say much anyway...Manson has Toronto on his NTC.

*IF* he didn't, or was willing to waive, I think I would personally prefer a 1st as opposed to the equivalent of 2 x 2nd, just to take a stab at a higher end return, because I'm assuming someone would probably do it, but at the end of the day if this was ultimately the return, I wouldn't lose much sleep.

Re: Dallas-I don't think they say yes unless it's a 1st, mainly because it's important to remember that they'll be thin on RD next year after taller-slightly-better-defensively Tyson Barrie walks in free agency (or is traded at the deadline). Is Hakanpaa worth a 1st? Probably not, but the contract is probably too good for Dallas to just move for a late 2nd.

Re: Buffalo-I'd be pretty surprised if they were willing to help you out of your cap issues like that.

I tend to be inbetween the "physicality doesn't matter" and "its more important than skill" schools of thought. Of course you win or lose on your skill, but having physicality means your skill players aren't taking beatings without your team dishing it back. It means their players can't get into the crease so easily. And I do think you're underestimating Manson as a solid defensive defenceman who doesn't take so many penalties in that fashion. That said, Severson is also a solid option - might cost a lot more though.

And look, say what you will, but cup winning teams often do add big heavy defencemen and it often works - see Savard to Tampa.

Holl has been our 6th or even 7th best defenceman this season. Rielly, Brodie, Muzzin, Sandin, and Liljegren have all been better, maybe even Dermott too. He wasn't good in last year's playoffs either. Schenn counts for way less against the cap, brings reliability and physicality to the 3rd pair if needed. He's in the lineup for most teams, I just went the route of adding crazy defensive depth after having to play Marincin in the top 4 against CBJ

Schenn is also probably our best stay at home d man and Holl sucks at defense

Manson - fair enough, I do think it would be enough to get it done though, and I'd be suprised if Manson wouldn't at least consider going to Toronto for the playoffs and then walking
Dallas - also fair point of view, though I do think a 2nd is a pretty steep price for a 3rd pair D. They'll have to rebuild that right side through free agency anyways, they might just take the return and reshape the right side completely.
Buffalo - I think someone will take ritchie for a 3rd, whether it be Buffalo or someone else

I think when Holl is on his game, Holl is considerably better than Schenn, which is why VAN might take the gamble on him returning to form and throw him in the top 4. Schenn is just consistently a good reliable 3rd pair D, which is what the Leafs would look for

That is connecting dots that have nothing to do with each other. When a team wins the cup, many point to some depth addition as the reason they won and that is entirely nonsense. Savard was of little importance. The Lightning won thanks to their stars. It's always the stars who do the heavy lifting and very few stars go around hitting everyone.

I also think "grit" and "hitting" are looked at as being the same and have little to do with each other. Good players fight through anything, Crosby gets targetted in the playoffs and just fights through it to win. Same with the Tampa stars. If TO is going to succeed in the playoffs. Matthews will need to enforce his will on every series, be the best player and want it more than anyone else. When that happens, all you really want is for everyone else to do your job. The team has proven they are a top team and their system calls for certain things.

They need to stay within that and then keep doing it consistently. If you really watch what leads to their breakdowns it's always transition where they took a bigger chance than they needed to. Limit that and they'll be a force. They are better defensively than Florida and Tampa from a GA/G point of view, how do they really improve that without damaging what makes them such a strong team? Changing 66% of their right side for tough guys who have little puck skills doesn't really help and could harm the teams possession in a big way.

canucks decline unless a pick is thrown in

Canuck fans have no idea what defence is anymore. If Schenn is your best RD your RD is easily the worst in the league.

Lol Canuck fans thinking a #8 defenceman is better than a guy playing heavy top 4 minutes on a top team.

hockey is a team sport this isn't the NBA, a team doesn't win solely off of the back of its stars. The stars are the driving factor and make or break it, but without appropriate support, they won't win. If the stars always make you win then we'd be seeing the Leafs, Oilers, or Avs in the finals every year

Look, I agree that the stars have to be able to play playoff hockey and excel, but the support has to be there as well. Tampa wouldn't have won without adding guys like Coleman, Goodrow, etc.

And yea the Leafs have been great defensively, doesn't mean they can't get better. Leafs were among the best defensive teams by those metrics last year too and that worked great. Holl has really been the one weaker link this season. Only necessary move is getting a better top 4 D. You could scrap all the other moves and have Holl on the 3rd pair, sure, I just personally think we need to move on from Holl being in our top 6

I completely disagree. It's absolutely about the stars. Which is why you don't see teams without a lot of star power winning the cup. In this current era, show me a cup winner that wasn't led by major stars.

Tampa, Pittsburgh, Chicago, St Louis etc etc. It's the top players that do the heavy lifting.

i'm not arguing that they don't lead it and do the heavy lifting, but there's only so much lifting they can do, depth matters.

i added to my last comment since you responded too, that should address some of this

St louis had huge depth contribution - Robert Thomas as a rookie, Maroon scoring that OTW goal, etc etc. Same with the other teams you mentioned. Stars lead it, but need help from the rest of the lineup.

You NEED star power to win, but star power ALONE and the just an average team otherwise is not enough.

Manson-I don't know...it's not like Toronto would be the only playoff team that's calling on him, but again, there are a lot of factors that we'd have no clue about that go into the lists that players provide for their NTC's. Pretty much all comes down to Pat Verbeek at this point.

Dallas-Honestly, I wouldn't pay a 1st for him, I'm just viewing it as a "A late 2nd in 2023 means F*ck all" scenario. Dallas is kind of in a weird position, but they also have payroll flexibility this summer to add. I just don't see why you give up a cost controlled piece for a pick that is a year and a half down the road.

Buffalo: I have absolutely no idea why the Leafs chose to heavily backload Ritchie's deal, but I really, really don't think someone eats $3.3 mil for a late 3rd. Teams that are trying to get to the floor typically take on the contracts that are higher AAV-Lower actual money contracts. Could be wrong though. If Dubas had of listened to Ducks and Bruins fans, he never would have gotten into that mess

Of course depth matters, however the difference between the various depth players around the league is quite small. Finding the right fit can see a depth guy go from a 4th liner to a top 6 player. Look at Hyman as an example, is he really capable of making a major difference on his own? Not in the slightest but good chemistry with Matthews and Marner and he gets 5.5 million, is he any better than Bunting? Maybe the difference is so small.

So getting extra depth guys at major costs that don't really change the team and absolutely come with a risk of being less than what we have already isn't wise.

In my mind TO should load up for this playoff. But my idea of loading up isn't changing the entire defence, it's upgrading Holl if you can and adding another NHL defenceman (possibly in the same move if possible). Have Holl slide down to the 3rd pair with Sandin after adding Severson or Klingberg and now you have 8 NHL defenceman. One of our Lefties get hurt and you have Dermott on the bottom pair? I can live with that. Or two guys get hurt and you have Schenn instead of Biega as your #8, that's good news. Spending big for guys who aren't really that much of an improvement or not one at all like Hakanpaa, Schenn, Mayfield, Lyubushkin, etc etc won't move the needle and cost more than it's worth. Sometimes less is more.

I think that my friend @Lenny7 has pretty well covered the subject of the Manson trade. I'm just here to add my support.

Our entire defense is one of the worst in the league in terms of actual defensive ability. We have great offensive d men in Hughes and OEL but Schenn is our only real d man with good defensive abilities compared to everyone else on our team

That should tell you all you need to about this conversation. Holl, Dermott, Liljegren, Sandin are all better than Schenn and it's not at all close.

yes Hyman can make an impact on his own, he proved that when he was moved to the 3rd line and still produced. Bunting is another great player and isn't really an argument for or against Hyman. Man if depth doesn't matter and its all about stars can you explain to me why the team with McDavid & Draisaitl can't win? What about the Panthers? How come they haven't won a playoff series with Barkov, Huberdeau and Ekblad (because prior to the last year or two they basically had nobody else)? I can go on and on. It's a team sport, moreso than most mainstream sports. You need your stars to be the drivers and be up and away your best players, but that alone doesn't win you a cup. And i agree that spending big on depth guys isn't a great idea but sometimes you have to when it's not already in your organization - as you said, Biega as your 8th D would be horrible for the playoffs. And Holl has plain and simple not been good enough. He hasn't. Hakanpaa also has 3 years of term which is a key piece you're missing. It starts from the top of your lineup but you can't have guys like Holl playing higher up in the lineup than they should if you expect to win.

Look I think we both agree upgrading #2D is a must. But it's more the style of defenceman. Severson i suppose is something between a pure offensive D like Klingberg and big defensive D like Manson. Klingberg would literally be Tyson Barrie 2.0 so if it's between paying an absurd amount for Klingberg or going for Manson, it's not even a debate for me.

Also - you say you're all for loading up this year, but if it has no impact and the stars don't need the support to win, why even bother?