no but the leafs are terrible at developing D, so it wouldn't have mattered right? Weren't you just arguing the other day that Sandin is effectively gonna be a bust because we can't get him playing time? If they drafted schneider he wouldn't see the NHL for years bc the leafs are bad at developing D, correct?

also, what? Sandin was WAY more productive than schneider in his draft year

We'll see if Schneider makes the leap to the AHL at 18 and plays 30 minutes a night for a contending team, followed by an NHL debut out of camp as a 19 year old

also lemme know if he wins defenceman of the tournament in the upcoming IIHF competition

I doubt it.

also key to realize is schneider is way bigger than everybody in junior, he gets to outmuscle everybody and outsize everybody. He loses that advantage in the NHL. Sandin put up better numbers being only 5'11". He had to rely on his hockey IQ, skating, and skill.

A GM who liked big players, grit or toughness would not need to bring in all those players just to bring the team up to a bare minimum level. Dubas built the team he wanted last season, the Dubas cult celebrated and planned the parade. Then everyone walked all over them and the team embarrassed itself all season long.

Nah, not for me, thanks.

so even though he fixes the problem you're still gonna rant away that he didn't fix it fast enough?

Yes. It had nothing to do with injuries to core players or finding out the guy who was coaching the team was a psychopath.

And even though Brodie is an offensive D and not huge. He’s still plays good D and is grittier now. He has to be at 30 and still producing like that. Not as fast as he once was.

I think someone reported him cause he didn’t seem like he was gonna stop. Ohh well. He probably deserved it!!

I think someone reported him cause he didn’t seem like he was gonna stop. Ohh well. He probably deserved it!!

And IMO did a great job this offseason fixing it!! Especially on limited cap room.

If Simmons and Thornton give the leafs 60 games plus, then that’s gonna be a success and well worth it. And they have the depth to not be affected much by their time off. And Vesey is ready to break out IMO. Not everyone can play in NY. I’m actually very jealous of the Signing..lol. And at 900k, you really can’t lose!! And looks like Robertson will be competing for a roster spot as well!! Which I’m excited to see after the Bracco fiasco/failure!!

Im just really interested in what the conferences are gonna look like. If they get put in an All Canada conference. Then they got screwed. But I guess I would rather play Edmonton Calgary, Winepeg, Vancouver over TB and. Boston.

Yes, the best thing for Schneider’s career is that the Leafs didn’t draft him. I already said that in defence of them drafting Amirov. But on the other hand they could try to actually develop D properly.



What I said is that Sandin is going to bust because the Leafs have and continue to violate every principal of development. Things that Dubas said the Leafs would never do because they are so harmful.



Being bad at development has nothing to do with when a D plays NHL games. Sandin, Girard, Carlo, McAvoy were all playing in the NHL at 19. 3 of them were fortunate enough to be on teams that are good at development, and the other unfortunate enough to be on a team that is terrible at it.



Sandin had 3 more points in 9 fewer games on a powerhouse offensive team that included a 112 point player. Schneider played on a weak team where no player could 62 points.



All this shows is that the constant claims by the Dubas cult that Schneider and other available Ds were 3 years away are not only BS, but they all know their claims are BS.

If those were the problems then Dubas would not have needed to make the changes he did. But Dubas, and anyone with even the most basic hockey understanding, understood that the team was a complete disaster.

a guy like schneider who's only noticeable on the ice because he's big and physical against 16 year old's is 3 years away, where-as a guy like sandin who's skilled, a great skater, with great hockey IQ is maybe a little more NHL ready. If you put it in terms of an 82 game season (in their draft year), you have:

19g 53a 72p in 82gp for sandin

10g 49a 59p in 82gp for schneider

Sandin was generally way more dominant, Schneider projects as having a high floor but not a great ceiling.

also, if the leafs somehow moved out muzzin or rielly and put in 5'11" 20 year old sandin in the top 4, would you be defending that move?

The leafs are doing the best thing for sandin, which is not rushing him and letting him dominate in the AHL. If he makes the team out of camp it's playing 12 minutes a night on the bottom pair. That's moronic and would stunt the hell out of his development

You have no idea what you are talking about. It’s embarrassing.



If the Leafs traded Sandin I would support that move.

It’s pretty simple:
1) You do not bring a young prospect into the lineup unless they are ready to be full-time. (This is as much a team issue as a player issue. If the team creates the right environment and role then a very young player can be very successful - see Girard in Colorado. If the team doesn’t then the player may never be in a position to succeed no matter what their age is). Violated multiple times. And I mean this is Dubas’s own rule - which he violated with all of his top prospects.
2) you put a young D with an appropriate partner to mentor and protect them. The Leafs put Sandin with the most inappropriate partners in the NHL.
3) you ensure that there is a route for the prospect to move up the lineup.

At least the Leafs got #1 right with Dermott.



The Leafs already did rush him. I was basically the only one opposed (because I knew they did not have a partner or environment in which success was likely) when they did as the Dubas cult knew he could do no wrong. Remember when he spent almost half the season in the NHL getting 12 minutes a game, with completely inappropriate partners and getting scratched? Stunted the hell out his development. Now they should do the right thing and trade him to a team that will take the responsibility of developing him seriously, instead of the joke of a team the Leafs are.

Sandin did get beat up and pushed around last year when he played in the NHL. It was why he was sent Down I read.

Those were issues, though. We lacked the depth to sustain injuries, and they fired Babcock. They went 27-15-5 under Keefe. They addressed their depth needs and got tougher this offseason. I wouldn't call them a disaster, but you do you.

Yes. But all rookies get targeted. Sandin played on a gutless team that wouldn’t stick up for anyone and let opposing players take whatever liberties they wanted. Dubas would not fix the problem. He could have signed Bogo in February, but backed out. Girard was 20 lbs lighter as a rookie (and has only gained about 5 lbs since), but if you try to push around Girard you would instantly get your ass kicked.

Then with everyone knowing that Sandin would benefit tremendously from gaining size and strength, the Leafs tell him to remain in game shape during the shutdown so they can not dress him at all during the return to play - not even the exhibition game. 5 months during which he could have been dedicated to offseason training wasted. And that also meant that he is doing that training now, although with much less time available to him, whereas if it had been done before he could be playing now. Instead he gets a shorter offseason and will go almost a year without playing games. Completely negligent team.

Amirov is a great player. How can you watch him play in Europe (like right now) and say the Leafs bombed that pick... cause you haven't watched him play they just picked the best guy available and not who you wanted...

The reason why Dubas didn't get Bogo in February was because just as they were finalizing the deal, that shtishow against Ayres happened and Dubas said no its time to see what this team is and I'll see what this team is and do my moves accordingly. That CBJ series was horrific cause it was a last chance for a lot of Leafs players. That's why Johnsson played over Robertson cause they knew what they had in Robertson. They were showcasing Johnsson and he bombed. This year was a sink or swim season for a lot of Leafs guys. And a very big portion of them sunk. Dubas addressed that.

I've really liked the moves of Dubas. Not just this offseason but since being hired. You can call me apart of a Dubas cult or whatever but it's fact.

It was a garbage emotional decision by a GM who claims that he doesn't make decisions based on emotions. They had Sandin out there flailing, losing confidence each day, and getting targeted by opposition, playing with a completely inappropriate partner. He had the opportunity to fix that and he chose not to because of an embarrassing loss. This is a GM who had previously said that it is the team's responsibility to always do what is right for your high-end prospects and instead always does the exact opposite. Completely irresponsible.



It should have been the last chance for at least one of the big four, and would have been if the team had a visionary leader who actually builds championships and teams that outperform expectations like Masai. But instead the Leafs' have build a team that repeatedly drastically underperforms.



What are the chances that Robertson is on the team full-time this year? Extremely low based on the AGMs and number of depth forward pieces brought in. So much for Dubas' position that you NEVER bring in a 18 - 20 prospect unless you are certain they are ready to full-time from then on. That will make all three of Dubas' top prospects in which he has done the exact thing that he specifically stated the Leafs' would never do because of how harmful it was.



Turned a 105 point team into a 95 point (pace) team. How many fans would have believed after their 2018 game 7 loss when Dubas took over that the team would have not made it past the first round in the next two years and actually would miss the playoffs in 2020? Essentially none, and those who did think that such an outcome was even possible would be harassed by the rest fanbase who was positive that the team was a surefire contender. Leafs' fans, especially Dubas' analytics cult base, said all the same things last summer, and they were 100% wrong. This is still a badly built and managed team. And they have been sacrificing the future to win now.

Well, I do think you make a good point. But two things, one, highlights aren't everything. From what I've heard, he's more of a 2way guy. Second, you could be right. Here I am talking like I know about him, when I've never seen him play (I'm looking forward to seeing him at the World junoirs). And yes, I agree the Hirvonen and Neimala picks were good. Thanks for this, love to here what other hockey fans think.

Ya, I watched a bunch of his game highlights. Not just his highlights. And his highlights too!! But You get a better feel for the player with the team highlights rather than just his highlights IMO. You get to see him without the puck. The competition he’s playing against, ETC.

But yes, I’m not saying I’m an expert on him either. Just saying, I tried to like the pick. But didn’t see much!! lol. But Dubas has shown to be a good judge of talent so far, so we’ll see. I just know, I would have been pissed if that was still the Pens pick though and that’s who they took.

I just don’t see him hitting big. And not having a great floor either. He Might completely bust. IMO u either take the high ceiling player like Lappierre. Or the high Floor player like Zary. I don’t think Amirov has either. Which is why, I’m like WTF is he looking at?? What does he expect?? I don’t see him becoming a superstar or all-star caliber player. And I can see him being a complete bust too. Atleast like, Liljegren, his floor is a NHL D-Man. He will play in the NHL. Same with a player like Hallander. His floor is a NHL bottom 6. He most likely will have an NHL career. But he doesn’t have a huge ceiling. But that’s ok. With Amirov I don’t see a high ceiling or a NHL caliber floor.

Well, who knows. To be honest, you sound like you looked into him more than me do I won’t argue further.

Probably alittle bit. But no, I would obvioulsy trust Dubas’s opinion more than mine..lol. And like I said, so far he’s seems to be a good judge of talent. And I loved the Neimela and Hirvonen picks!! I wanted the Pens to take Neimela in the 2nd round or was hoping he would fall to them in the 3rd. Hirvonen is alittle under-sized But he was rated a lot higher than late 2nd round.

Ya, I agree.

Robertson is a guarantee in my eyes. Don't base your decisions of a franchise because of AGMs. You know the team is young and the GM is young too. Both are learning and I trust Dubas considering he took a team in 2013 that has the most embarrassing loss in franchise history to what the team is now. It took a global pandemic to make the Leafs to miss the playoffs. Under normal circumstances no way the Leafs miss. Sure they rushed Sandin but he could handle it there's a difference. Sandin looked young not out of place.