But Johnsson isn't a cap dump, hes a top 6 winger at around $3M. They just won't trade him if thats the offer

If dermott is a top 4 RD for us next year then we aren’t serious about contending. I don’t know what people are seeing that says dermott is ready to not only play top 4 minutes but on the right side.

His play...

I’ve always wondered why he has been held back on the bottom pair. His offensive results haven’t been there but the skill is. I think his defensive game is great. His ability to play both sides is a great asset as well.

He played by far his best hockey as top pairing defensive guy. Simple plays and smooth in everything. He is top-4 D. If he plays there next year, he has done enough to get himself promoted.

I think hes a borderline top 4 guy right now and will become a legit top 4 in 1-2 years but the dermott we saw last year dosent play on the top defensive pairing for a team who should be trying to contend like the leafs next year.

If the Leafs keeping Johnson, then who is the guy that goes? Do Leafs trade a similar cap player like Kapanen for futures? Kapanen would get a bigger return, but who would the Leafs prefer to keep, Kapanen or Johnsson regardless of the trade return?

The return definitely makes a difference, if the best offer for Johnsson is a 5th or we can get Connor Murphy + for Kapanen its an easy decision. Johnsson can play LW2 while Kap isn't playing higher than the third line cause of the RW depth. Any of the ~3M third liners can be moved

Just my opinion but I think labelling Dmen as top 4 or bottom 2 is completely meaningless. It's a crutch used to by fans to use a meaningless classifications. Last season Dermot played 17 minutes a game. For sure played against other teams best forwards especially on the road.
I don't how Reilly can even be considered a premier Dman. He's very good on the PP, slightly above average at even strength and coaches avoid putting him on the PK because of his defensive liabilities but somehow because of point total he is considered a "top pairing".
Muzzin in IMO was by far the Leafs best Dman last year, playing in all situations. As maligned as Ceci was, he played the PK and in close games when protecting the lead. Barrie was on the bench when the Leafs needed a defensive RHD.
Dermot certainly could play 17 minutes a night with Reilly...especially if means very little PP time. Holl averaged 20 minutes last year. That leaves Lehtonen playing about 17 minutes if Marner played right point on the PP. See why I think "top 4" is virtually meaningless. In the Leafs case...all the RHD play about the same about same minutes and it was true last year.
On the left side. Reilly plays the most minutes due to his PP time. Reilly 23 minutes, Muzzin 21 minutes and Sandin 16 minutes would be approximate breakdown.
For darn sure a team needs 6 or 7 competent NHL Dman as each Dman has to play big minutes against all forward lines. Now you might question the Leafs with justification whether the Leafs have 6 or 7 NHL competent Dman, but classify them into "pairing numbers" doesn't alter the competency situation.

Although I would not object to Murphy for Kapanen trade for on ice value, it actually makes the Leafs cap worse, then 4m of cap would have moved with no cap being returned. So Johnsson or Kapanen really have to be moved with no cap being returned. We can argue what the "trade value" is in picks, but for cap reason Leafs have rid themselves of about 3.3m in cap.

Why? Because a 23 year old who's looked very good in the NHL can't possibly progress? I am so tired of this literally stupid mindset. According to have the fans on this site, Liljegren will never be NHL ready, Sandin won't be top 4 worthy until he's 28, Rielly peaked when he was 24, Holl isn't an NHLer despite being terrific with Muzzin and Dermott is just a 3rd pair LD because that's where he's played most of his career and definitely will never grow beyond that because I guess he's passed his prime. This is just stupid.

All of the players you listed need progression though. I think Sandin will be very good pretty soon and Liljegren as well and I think dermott could progress. I’m not opposed to this for 1 or 2 months to start the year but if dermott dosent perform really well next year the leafs should improve their RD because we need to start contending.

I always like to rate the defense on who I feel most comfortable with on the ice. Really only Barrie made me uneasy. Ceci and Rielly in my opinion was a pair I never liked but necessity dictated. Muzzin is good with just about anyone. I would really like to see Holl paired with Rielly and Dermott paired with muzzin. I think Dermott’s defensive tenacity would make him viable in the shutdown role but being with muzzin would give him a chance to shine offensively as well.

There was another agm posted today where everyone stays... I really like that idea. It all depends on contract demands for soup and Dermott. Pretty much a walk in the park for Pridham and dubas compared to their prior tasks.

Agree with you Holl and Dermot can be interchangable with an any partner as they competent NHLers. Lehtonen is the wild card in all of this. Is he NHL competent? Lehtonen has a lot riding on this seasons and he is UFA next summer.

And he brings sandpaper, he may not be a huge hitter or fighter but he chirps, he gives guys face washes and he'll give guys some grief if they go near the net. I love his game and I don't care about the offence. I just want him to be what he is, a terrific skater, a pain to play against and responsible in his own end. He's also super good at preventing controlled zone entries and that is a huge asset to have. I also think Lehtonen could be a good fit next to Rielly as well. He looks like he's a terrific puck mover and strong skater who is good defensively as well. In Keefe's system that is really a huge asset and defenceman switch sides all the time in his system so what hand they shoot doesn't matter.

i dont think its necessarily that Dermott isnt top 4 vapable its that both Dermott and Holl are part od the top 4 that makes it difficult to call a competing blue line. You could probably get away with 1 but likely not both

But Holl would be a 3rd pairing guy next year. Dermott could be 3LD or 1RD depending on who is available on trade market and for what price but like.. it should be fine.

I have flipped back and forth between the two many times. I do think Johnsson is more skilled and has more potential but Kapanen has shown he can bring some sandpaper that will add more energy than what Johnsson brings. And he's a RW which we are less deep in. Both players have value, there are few 40+ point wingers with upside and speed that cost less than 4 million. There are in fact many who cost more. Johnsson definitely has value and many teams who lack scoring could use him.

Rielly is another Leaf player who gets a terrible bad wrap for a poor system and terrible partners. Much like so many consider Nylander "just a 60 point winger" Rielly gets called terrible defensively because he had to carry ****ty partners, (Zaitsev, then Hainsey and then Ceci) and the system Babs played was never good for the players in TO. The moment a defenceman went to the corner to defend, the opposition would throw it in front and a grade A chance ensued, but that is not at all Rielly's fault, that is the Centre's fault or a winger or whoever was supposed to be covering the guy in front.

Who plays 2nd pair with Muzzin then? If Holl is 3rd pair RD and Toronto can pick up a top 4RD in UFA this summer then sure, there is no issue

Lehtonen is going to play with Muzzin from what Ive heard. He played right side before and they want to take advantage of it.

Its either

Rielly - D pickup
Muzzin - Lehtonen
Dermott - Holl

or

Rielly - Dermott
Muzzin - Lehtonen
Sandin - Holl

And Im fine with both.

That 2nd option sounds really sketchy to me, Lehtonen has 0 NHL experience. But hey, dont judge a book by its cover

To me that is the path forward. We need to see what we have before committing longer term money to vets who may or may not be better than what we have. You never know what you have in a young player until you see what he can do. Saying we can't contend with these guys and then spending money on some older player or trading Dermot before he even gets a chance to prove himself is just poor asset management.

With lehtonen and liljegren Sandin and marincin think we have the depth to cover the bottom pair. Like you mentioned earlier the minutes for our Dmen that aren’t muzzin and Rielly isn’t all that insane. I think even in the event of injury players like sandin and liljegren have proven they can put in more minutes.

Sure an upgrade would be nice on the blueline, and 30 other teams would agree. But if the deal and the player isn’t there I don’t think forcing it is wise.

Then substitute Kerfoot or Kapanen (both of whom are superior). Simple economics. The cap means one of them has to go. Who's most easily replaced?

Connor Murphy for Kapanen would still require moving Johnsson (or Kerfoot). Do the math.