But... why??

https://www.nhl.com/standings

Those standings show the Caps at the top. Why would we make that move? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. We're rolling, Oshie is playing great, Kempny is steady as always. This is a pointless trade.

Keeping the window open. edit: Value's off?

I'll edit in a pick and another prospect.

Why would sharks do this???? Kane is younger, better and worth more. Somehow we also end up giving up two prospects while taking back a LD we dont need and a meh AHL goalie.

"Whoa," I thought. "Even you have to know Kempny isn't just a warm body."

But then while I was looking up stats you fixed it!



Good catch!

Anyway, he's tied for 12th in even strength points among LHD this year. http://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=season&seasonFrom=20192020&seasonTo=20192020&gameType=2&position=D&shootsCatches=L&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=evPoints&page=0&pageSize=100

The Sharks have no one in the top forty, in spite of having defensemen that play with Burns and Karlsson.

Also, last year Copley was better in the NHL than Jones or Dell. Unless they've suddenly improved, it's Copley at 1A and Jones at 1B. http://www.nhl.com/stats/goalies?aggregate=0&reportType=season&seasonFrom=20182019&seasonTo=20182019&gameType=2&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=a_goalsAgainstAverage&page=0&pageSize=92

Sorry for responding only to your jabs and not the question. The Sharks would trade for a starting goalie and a top pairing left defenseman in order to make the playoffs. They've traded their pick, so they might as well.



They Caps have enough depth at LHD to trade away a top pairing defenseman and still contend. This year they go with Orlov, Siegenthaler, and Djoos. Next year they bring up Johansen, and still have Alexeyev and Fehervary in the AHL. Like the Sharks fan said, Kane is younger than Oshie, with similar skill, and the Sharks can give up picks and prospects to make up for the rest of the value that Kempny and Copley bring.

Copley just doesn’t have value. He’s not even in the NHL and his AHL numbers are pretty awful. This trade doesn’t improve us.

...says the guy who was trying to trade Jones yesterday.

In the NHL, Copley's numbers were better than Jones' or Dell's last year. In the AHL this year, Copley's numbers look like Samsonov's last year behind the same defense.

So now you come back with, "yeah, well, Jones and Dell could play goalie in the NHL if they had some of the Capitals' defensemen!"

And then I'm like, "look at the trade above. Have you had time to google who Michal Kempny is, yet? Because he assisted on the Caps' Cup-winning goal, he's a fan favorite, and I think it's a fair offer."

This is a pointless trade for SJ, awful in every aspect, it’s even pointless for Washington. Adding Merkley to it is insult to injury.

You were so polite about it, on the other side! Ah, well. It sounds like Sharks fans are united in not caring whether the team makes the 2020 playoffs.

Eli I don’t think your Ill intentioned but you really don’t have a great valuation of other teams players. This trade does not make us the playoffs

Dell is actually better than Copley, Kane has more value than Oshie, and tossing Merkley and a 2nd for a fourth makes this 100% a troll post. Ignore Eli, he did this in the summer too, a bunch a really dumb trades for SJ, he’s an ACGM troll.

Kempny is having a better year than Vlasic, so he's the most valuable piece in the deal and you didn't even mention him. I'm not sure you understood the post.

What makes Dell better than Copley? It isn't spct or GAA in the last two years in the NHL.

Kempny is playing like Vlasic this year, but is three years younger. He's the most valuable piece in this trade.

Copley's GAA and SPCT are better than Jones or Dell since last season. That could be because Copley is better at playing goalie, in which case, getting Copley will help the Sharks make the playoffs. Or it could be because the Sharks' defense isn't as good, in which case adding Kempny will help them make the playoffs. Either way, getting both Kempny and Copley will help the Sharks make the playoffs.

Oshie and Kane are about equal on the ice this year, but Oshie is four years older and way less valuable in a contract trade. But Kane and Kempny, at the same age, playing the top spot at their positions, have similar value. Maybe I gave the thread the wrong title. Kempny for Kane is fair and solves a need for San Jose. Oshie of Chmelevsky is pretty decent for San Jose to replace Kane's goal scoring. Dahlin for Copley is a steal, because Dahlin isn't even in the AHL.

This! @Eli

I feel like you do this in every single trade you make. You make such a great case for the Caps players that it almost shouldn't make sense to do it anymore from your perspective. If Copley is this and Kempny is that, why is the NHL's best team making these trades then?

Thanks. You're saying I think the players on a first place team with a recent championship are valuable? I'll take it.

The Sharks have lost their last four games to non-playoff teams by a combined 21-6. Washington should not want to trade Kempny, Copley, or Oshie. SJ should have to overpay to get any of them. Kane is an overpay for Oshie, Merkley is an overpay for Copley, but I'm not sure whether Chmelevski, Dahlen and a 2nd is enough for Kempny, with three years left at 2.5M. Chmelevski finally got going in the AHL. Dahlen gave up and went back to Sweden for the year. Maybe he'll be back.

I think the Sharks have tried replacing their coach and the team got worse. Maybe they bring in Oshie to replace their captain.

Meanwhile, Washington gets younger, adds prospects, and stays in the playoffs. What kind of trades should division leaders make?

I feel like you are telling others what they should want rather than listening to what they want. That isn't how (I can only imagine) trade negotiation works. That's why you get so much negative feedback with these trades despite giving solid rationale. Yeah Kempny is a decent dman and Copley is a decent backup but if they truly were thought of that way, you wouldn't need to sell anyone on it. We'd all believe you from the get go.

The truth is and whether you agree with it or not, i think everyone feels guys like Kempny and Copley, etc are products of their surroundings rather than they themselves being that good. Hence why no one agrees to your valuations of them.

Oshie is solid player but he's significantly older than Kane and has a concussion history which makes trading for him risky and is signed till he's 37 or so. I don't think anyone is willing to bank on Oshie being able to do what he's done in Washington these past years, in SJ during the next 5 years while in his decline.

Kempny is a decent 4-5-6 dman but he's just a 4-5-6 dman. Unless SJ is in the market for 4-5-6 dman, from the looks of the trade above they're overpaying for dman whose only 4-5-6 dman at the end of the day. Is that is what is going to get them back in the playoffs this year?

Copley is career backup goalie and not even that great of one. Im sorry but SJ isn't going to overpay for a "chance" a career backup goalie plays better than the two goalies who are already on the team. Chances are its the team that is the problem, not just the goalies.

Fancy word play and stating manipulative statistics might convince some posters on here but the minute you try to convince anyone with an ounce of understanding, it won't fly.

No one's gonna "hang up" or say "hard pass" in real life like they do on here but they sure as heck will say "thanks for the offer but I'll look elsewhere" when presented with something like this. I know I would and from the looks of it, so would just about any non Caps fan on here. That should be telling.

Now don't assume I'm saying those players are garbage. Things don't have to be so black or white. It can be both that they are good players but I don't want them for that cost at the same time. Nothing wrong with that.

Very well said. I hope Eli takes this to heart.

I like Heart. And SJ is playing like the...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeMvMNpvB5M

You know what SJ fans want for Labanc? Holtby with retention. And I went ahead and posted that on the Caps side just now, to see what anyone will say. Because I totally listen to what people want on here if it even seems 1% possible.

What do you think they want for Chmelevski and Chekhovich? Drumroll, please?........ Jacub Vrana!

Just because there are two viewpoints presented in a conversation does not mean they are each reasonable.

Yes, Kempny appearing to be a 1LD since he came to Washington might be a trick of context, but for that to be true, Kempny would have to have been bad in Chicago. Let's check.

His corsi was good. He was 2nd among Chicago's 16 defensemen while he played there, behind a small-sample-size aberration from Cody Franson: http://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?report=percentages&reportType=season&seasonFrom=20162017&seasonTo=20172018&gameType=2&position=D&playerPlayedFor=franchise.11&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=satPercentage&page=0&pageSize=50

His plus/minus was 2nd behind TVR. His hits/60 were 3rd. His even strength points were 6th out of 16. His ice time per game played was 16th.

So you're saying Kempny isn't good because Chicago's coaches played worse defensemen more than him. If that makes you happy, you can think that. As a counterargument, he made a lot of turnovers in his first two years in the NHL, so maybe Chicago's coaches benched him for making mistakes, and weren't that interested in a big picture approach of how he drove play or whatever. But was good then, and he's good now. He's just 29 now, which cuts his trade value way down, unless he's being moved for someone else about that age, or for prospects.

Is there a chance that Copley is worse than Jones on the same team? I mean, maybe if Copley gets hurt?

.....and what does everyone say when SJ fans try to peddle Brenden Dillon for 1st on us? "Hard pass". Lmao

No one is saying the flip side is right either. Far from it.

Again with the circumstantial evidence. His small sample size in Chicago is hardly evidence of anything. People have seen what Kempny can do and aren't devaluing him for the sake of putting him and any Caps fans opinions of him down.

There is a resounding belief that because the teams as a whole do so well every single player on it values are severely inflated. I agree. I think the obvious players on them drive the team's value more than every single player on it does. So when a player is part of a team that has been a perennial presidents trophy calibre his value driven up artificially. A good example of this is Karl Alzner. Not saying Kempny is the next Alzner but I don't think Kempny will able to give a team that has been a dumpster fire much boost as he did for the team that is currently leading the presidents trophy yet again.

I truthfully believe Copley would be just as bad as both goalies currently in SJ. There is nothing to support otherwise. When the team in front of you isn't playing good, chances are you won't be able to cover everything up.

So if these players aren't going to make a tangible difference compared to the ones they currently have, why are they accepting your offer again? Once again, telling them what they should want rather than listening to what they are saying they want. Listening doesn't mean Ovechkin for Sorensen. Means is Oshie for Kane what they really need right now?

The next step is for the SJ side to listen to what the Caps need to facilitate that move. Doesn't mean you'll come to an agreement but at least the two sides agree the parts involved are what they actually want and not what the other side is telling them they should want.

That part makes sense. To nitpick, while Kempny's minutes in Chicago were way too small for his effects on scoring and puck possession, he did make it into 82 games. And I think Chicago had some idea that he was decent, but they just had younger guys to try to develop, and they had their own 1st picks, so they were okay rebuilding through the draft.

It seems like SJ, when asked, says they're just hoping their team turns things around on its own, and that's fine. The Sharks were 3rd in the NHL last year, and have been a perennial President's Trophy contender, too. Just like they think the Caps players might be inflated from team performance, I think the same thing about some of their guys.

Vlasic usually gets 40 points when he plays all year with Burns and gets a lot of power play time on a top team with the league's best offense. This year, he's playing with Karlsson, and it's not working. He's on pace for 23 points. If Sharks fans are committed to letting those two try to work out a way to play together, they can certainly keep the experiment going, but they've lost their last four games to non-playoff teams by a combined 21-6.

Sharks fans, is Vlasic better with Karlsson, who is on pace for 61 points with him, this year, or with Burns, who got 83 points with him last year? If Vlasic is better with Burns, then who should play with Karlsson? Is there an in-house answer, or if not, what player would you trade for?

Absolutely, in regards to SJ having the same issue as the Caps do with being a good team for a long time its players getting propped up as a result, its the reason why they feel some of their players are worth as much as they do.

The problem with comparing the two, now, is because one team is doing great and the other isn't which puts anyone defending the Caps portion at a great advantage. Put yourself in the 13-14 Caps mindset, not sure you would have the same conviction in trade negotiations when people are pointing to the teams abysmal season as you do know. That leverage is, on this site between us fans, is palpable and used to convey to people who don't know better, that they should do this. Why? Well, look at your team and look at my team. Clearly my players are full value while your players are being overvalued. See how that is frustrating?

Regarding the Sharks needs, I'm not entirely sure to be honest with you but If i venture a guess, they got to do something about that goaltender situation more than anything else IMO so the Holtby idea works, now its about whether Caps are willing to let him go before the playoffs with a rookie goaltender or not.

Yep. I don't think they should. If the UFA goalie market falls flat after teams watch three out of four 10M goalies miss the playoffs, the Caps can sign him back, year by year, around 7 or 8M, and he helps them stay in contention. If they had another 40 point right wing, behind Oshie, Wilson, and Panik, they'd have a lot of wings who can score forty points, but there's only so much ice time to go around.