With Acciari and Eller signed past this season, I cannot see us wanting Kampf. I also think although Steeves and Niemela look good, I cannot justify moving our first when we might be a weak team again if it isnt for someone proven in the NHL.

if the deal includes Robertson over Steeves does that move the needle?
I agree the current package isnt worth a 1st, but we also know very well in Toronto that Dubas likes flipping 1sts.

For me, Idk. I would consider moving our current 1st (which will probs be like 8-10) for someone like Keller or Zegras and then giving SJ our 25 1st. I like Robertson, but I dont think he is enough to warrant a high 1st.

Is a 2nd doable in your opinion? (as a starting point)
I think Nick would benefit from the bigger role and veteran leadership the Pens have.

Possibly, but Idk if we still have place for him. I see us going after a big boy on the LW to play with Sid, and then have Bunting 2LW and O'Connor 3LW.

If Niemela is as good as you say, the Leafs should keep him. Cheap RHDs with years of control are hard to find.
Bertuzzi for six years, seems like too much term.

Pens already have depth forwards so they don't need to give up a potentially very high first to help toronto shed salary lol . and they could very very easily sign similar players in free agency without giving up ANY picks.
Topi may be a good piece but if the pens are moving a first any time soon it is for established young nhl talent. Topi is not that. He is already 22 and has one season of pro experience in north america. Not one single game in the NHL. To claim the leafs right side is deeper than the pens is utterly laughable.

if you want that high first then you can give up something of tangible value. like knies. Even then the pens may say no thank you.

PIT doesn't have their 2025 1st round pick at this time. San Jose does. So might have to try them for this package.

This is an easy no from Pittsburgh for multiple reasons.

One, it does nothing for the team.

two, that pick will most likely belong to SJS.

The only reason I put him in there is the emergence of William Villeneuve who is more in line with what Treliving likes in terms of reach and has arguably caught up to Niemela in terms of development but is a year behind. If not for him, Niemela is never in this package.

A future 1st would work just as well

Who is your 3RHD?

I suspect the Leafs sign back Lyubushkin.

Rielly/Liljegren
McCabe/Lyubushkin
Benoit/Timmins

Are Letang and Karlsson better than Liljegren and Lyubushkin? Offensively they certainly are. Not defensively. And who is it you have after them that is better than Timmins, signed for another year for 1.1 btw?

Also, Topi Niemela turned 22...on Monday.

Villeneuve may be bigger but is he NHL good enough??? I guess you could say the same about Villeneuve. What a bonus if those two guys could fill in next season in. case of injury and be regulars in 25/26.
You commented about Timmins. When he's played, IMO he has been solid.

It takes a three year development clock on a single player, doubles it's capacity, and shrinks it to three months.

At the beginning of the season Villeneuve alternated between having happy feet and deer in the headlights eyes.. That was the big bugaboo in his game. Size, skating, vision, shot, compete, the rest was there. But now the panic in his game has vanished. He is confident out there now. I think at the end of the day, you are looking at a Liljegren clone, a defenseman who is above average across the board but has no one thing that is outstanding.

On a Toronto team, it's a tough ask for either to be full time players given their depth. But as I said earlier, they play immediately in Pittsburgh.

Villeneuve I think is a year away. I'm all about overcooking prospects. Could not care less if they break in a couple years later than someone else.

Thanks for your insight.

Bob's yer Uncle dude.

Letang is better than every single RD on the leafs using both advanced stats and regular stats.
Karlsson is better than every single leafs RD using both advanced stats and regular stats.
This information is very easily found using many different hockey comparison sites.
The leafs absolute best RD wouldn’t even be in the top 4 in Pittsburgh. Feel free to actually do some research yourself before making such a ridiculous claim.
The fact that I even have to explain this is astounding to me and shows your extreme homerism.
The pens have multiple options for bottom pair RD that have filled in very well this year.
RD is quite possibly the pens biggest strength and the leafs biggest weakness lmao .
What even is this conversation.
If you want the pens first we will take knies, lili, and a 2nd.
They’d add some good depth to our 3rd line and 3rd pairing. Otherwise dubas laughs .

Leafs arent parting with Knies for a first unless its top 10 in a good draft class and I doubt that team would do that either. Only way he gets moves is part of a monster trade..hes a 25 to 30 goal scorer in a couple years imo.
I agree with all your points about Pens RD situation..only stat I would bring up is their age is an issue.

I agree with everything here. Unfortunately age is an issue across the entire pens roster lol but its a bit too late to fix that. If they are able to somehow find some effective young players maybe this team has another decent playoff run. Otherwise they are just riding into the sunset with memories of when sid, geno, and letang were some of the top players in the league.
At this point they need more help but don't really get it

THIS IS AN AWFUL DEAL.

JFC, some of you Leafs fans.

big mistake bringing in Karlsson...maybe rumours of him going to Ottawa (next year) can bring back some young guns (Sens have a surplus)...Chychrun?
Sid doesnt seem t be slowing down..hes a beast this year at 36..maybe we are all blessed to see him play at top level a couple more years

xG% does not actually take into account defensive events such as blocked shots, killed cycles, box outs etc. In terms of measuring defense it comes up woefully short. Woefully short.

It slants heavily towards offensive defensemen and punishes those blueliners who are defensive specialists because it ignores their contributions. Ask anyone who *works in the business* and they will tell you the same about it's limitations as an analytical tool.

You are basing everything you have said above on faulty incomplete data.

Oh I must have forgot that goals and controlling the play doesn’t get you wins .
How silly of me to think a league where the winner of every game is based on the most goals should actually value defenseman who can’t score or control play more than the defenders who can.
You can keep enjoying your 3 bottom pairing RD.
Pens will keep enjoying having two top pair RD

xG% measures shot type and placement both ways. It is a handy tool for analyzing shot suppression and lack thereof. There is far more to playing defense than that. And xG% looks at none of it. Feel free though to rate your defense using only that metric. No one who gets paid to do it does.

In terms of Niemela, who is the only defenseman in *this* deal, his tool kit is very similar to that of Letang's. He has his big brain in terms of processing and does not beat himself out there. He is also among the points leaders among defensemen in his first year in the AHL. I think you've missed the mark in your jibe here.

As for your top two RHD, I've never disputed that they are very good offensively. Two years ago I would have said that Letang was better than Liljegren defensively as well, but Liljegren has taken some big steps forward in that regard this season. Hence my call there. It's simply a case of Letang getting older and Liljegren reaching his prime as a player. What I *have* disputed is their depth behind them. This is especially important given the ages and contract status of Letang and Karlsson. Niemela would be the natural heir to that throne by the time they retire in two or three years. Pittsburgh does not have a guy like that in their pipeline and Dubas knows it.