this just seems like, "hey, here are four random pieces of little to no value, can we have a good player please? oh, and can you retain for multiple years too?"

just doesn't get it done.

There barely a retain, which may not even be needed.
Second I never said Middleton is a needle mover. He is more depth addition to help shore the defense this year and next couple years at a low salary.
Also I had seen a proposal from an article showing Johanson, Middleton for Brodie, a first and abruzese and voit. I took out Johanson to see if maybe that can drop the 1st rounder. It is a move similar to McCabe/Lafferty last year for leafs minus the forward.

ya you left in the most valuable thing going to minnesota, and kept in the most valuable thing comign from minnesota. of course that doesn't work.

i think you underestimate how good middelton is.

I am not underestimating. I am thinking of ideas. Of course I can see Minnesota asking for better prospects or a first and even a trade like what I took as the idea as not even working at all. Middleton is a very good defender solid all around capable of consistently playing in top 4.
Always need to think a proposal on here is 99% of the time fiction. Any realism to a trade id based on starting point only. I can see a conversation starting with the above trade and maybe it goes further maybe it doesn't. All gms will fight for why their prospects should be included and the opposing gms will have other thoughts on said prospects and others. Lots of nuances involved and it is more based on an idea to see if something could work not and the future.
Changes to any proposed trade is inevitable
L.

ya that's where i disagree. i don't think you've presented something that could even be a starting point. its nothing for something good. the only value to minnesota coming out of this proposal would be that they know toronto is interested in the player. there's just nothing in there of any interest.

And that is fair to disagree. Abruzese and voit have looked to be potentially good prospects to include in a conversation. The 3rd can easily can written as a condition to move up to firsts. I can see value as I mainly follow the leafs and see their prospects and the benefits there. Where I understand the other side is as was written. Everything is a starting point and Guerin would not be insulting back. If he feels as you said much more of needed, he might more closely go to the trade with Johanson included to help remove Johanson salary or he might say only way Middleton is traded is alone for a 1st round, a conditional and a prospect. I would not argue that as values are different for everyone.
That's why ig is so hard for trades to actually happen.
Take Nylander on leafs as example, many reports stated he was somewhat shopped and no one was willing to offer a comparable salary type defender capable of playing top 3 minutes and a decent low paying scoring forward with potential for more offense of brought into top 6.
I do like the opinion and see where you are coming from, and yes I agree Middleton is a very good defender, hence why I had the idea of trading for him

Abruzzese is an undersized 24 year old doing okay in the AHL.
Voit is in the ECHL, and even more undersized.

They're about as close to zero value as you can get. Actually, Minnesota might not even want to waste contract slots on them. It's just an absolute non-starter, despite this mysterious potential condition that gets the 3rd to a 1st that previously wasn't mentioned.

Voit has actually made it to the ahl, but an eye injury kept him out of games but I'd back healthy and playing as for Abruzese there is still some ceiling for a bottom 6 forward as he continues to grow.. As for picks I said starting point. So conditions and everything else are always brought back and forth. This value is dependant on the teams and GM.
Another great example verhaghe was part of a trade from Toronto as a 5 player deal to clear roster spots for Micheal grabner. If Toronto knew at the time what Verhaghe would grow into, no way they even consider that trade.
So all this is based on personal valuations and thoughts and opinions.
I am essentially agreeing with you, whilst stating why I may not go to the aboved valuation.

You're going to need to offer significantly more than that to get Middleton

teams can't just take shots willy nilly at ECHL/AHL fringe guys because, "well .05% of them turn into something good!"


this trade offer is a really bad start. There's nothing of interest in it. that's all.

1st round draft picks are maybe 25% chance of making it so any time percentages are thrown, for one valuation, the same is thrown right back. You never addressed the fact that Voit has actually played well from the Marlies despite the eye injury meaning he is more than a echl tweener.
Looking at the Lindholm trade, the main prospect Vancouver gave was not a top prospect of Vancouver. So once again, while I have said that you can easily be right, there is valuation is other prospects that are not seen and it is all judgement and opinion based. I am not saying Voit and abruzese are nhler s or guaranteed nhler s as you said most don't make it. At the same time, how many prospects included in trades actually make it to the NHL!

There is an ocean of room between a top prospect, and these two guys. They're nothing. bottom of the barrel. No one is going to want them. They're in the realm of if a team has an available contract short, sure, they'll take a look. Otherwise, they aren't going to want them. I get it if you're a leafs fan and want them to work out, but on the trade market, they're total zeros. I see three paths forward for them:
1. a bottom of the barrel NHL team decides to bring them in to give them a brief look because they need bodies.
2. europe
3. the one in a thousand chance they actually turn into something.

trade value wise, all three of those options have them at a zero.

Once again, very likely you could be right, but same was said about Carter Verhaghe. Now look at him. Both prospects while not top leafs prospects have not looked bad. So valuations are different with whom looks at them. I do agree the top three leafs prospects are minten, Cowan and Niemela. And leafs don't have a greta prospect pool. That doesn't mean team find value in leafs players as proven from years past and trades how many of those prospects other than Durzi and Moore has actually don't something. They same goes for every other team. If you seem you need to make a trade, you trade and hope for the best. That is reality.

i addressed this already. see previous posts.

Then no need to keep arguing with me. I have stated I have agreed you valuation is different and only explained where my idea came from. I have admitted that I can be way off, or closer to on point as everyone has differing opinions. I am not treliving nor Guerin and as a result not idea where they value the prospects. Only guessing.

Abruzzese has no value to anyone, I wouldn't trade a 7th round pick for him

Voit could have some value in the 3rd to 5th round range depending on the GM trading for him.

But this package isn't close. Any of those pieces aside from Abruzzese would be a throw in, and he treats them as if they're center pieces.

1st+3rd/conditional 4th/Voit for Middleton, maybe Minnesota adds a late round pick (5th-7th round).

Any condition on the 1st would only dictate whether it's the 2024 1st or the 2025 1st, not a pick in a later round (2nd, 3rd like OP suggested).

This is the cost to get Middleton out of Minnesota with 1.5 years left on his deal.