Not close on Hertl

You have the right targets, but not enough value going out. Quantity over quality doesn’t work.

Oh, you’re still around. I thought you disappeared after that whole stone vs hertl debate. Still no answer for that?

I'm not sure if BOS would have the best offer for either of these players, certainly can't afford to trade for both.

what is this Stone vs Hertl debate?
but yea this is a bad trade for the sharks, nothing of real value just a lot quantity no quality.

It probably worked in EA Sport NHL that explains the late round picks

I asked that guy why hertl was worth more than stone. He sputtered, said a bunch of junk, and then when i laid out the two players careers side by side at the time of the trade, he just went quiet real quick.

How do the Hertl trades keep getting worse

Because you are impossible to have a debate with. You think your word is gospel and that nobody but you could be right about something. You like to use a bad stone trade to justify your opinion and I don’t agree with it. If I use an equally as bad trade that goes in the sharks’ favor I’m spitting a bunch of junk

Because you are impossible to have a debate with. You think your word is gospel and that nobody but you could be right about something. You like to use a bad stone trade to justify your opinion and I don’t agree with it. If I use an equally as bad trade that goes in the sharks’ favor I’m spitting a bunch of junk

LIndholm for the first, the fourth and DeBrusk is reasonable. What's the rest of that stuff have to do with it?

I can accept the similarity but Hertl trade wont be the same.
for starters the sharks want Hertl back and are actively trying to resign him.
another reason would be simply, Ottawa got fleeced and Wilson rarely gets fleeced.

yes they are comparable and in a perfect world both should expect about the same return if anything I would expect more of a return from Stone.
however I feel the sharks wont trade Hertl for anything less than a 1st and a top RD or C prospect in return.
and if that doesn't happen then the sharks are content in trying to resign him and keep him long term if possible.

What Ottawa did was not wise, in essence giving away a top player for way less than his value simply because you have no intention of winning or paying him sends a horrible message to the locker room and other players who potentially might have been interested in going to play for that team.

Players like to see front offices trying to resign top players and if they walk seeing them attempt to find comparable replacements.

this is a reason most top UFA don't look at places like Detroit (right now, it didn't use to be like that) Ottawa, Buffalo or Arizona to sign and play for them.

Ottawa wanted to re-sign stone…but he wanted to explore other opportunities. Sounds like hertl is at least thinking that way.

This is at least an attempt to answer the question. Here’s what i said to the other guy in this thread, before he just went quiet, aside from cherry picking at random spots https://www.capfriendly.com/forums/thread/536753?post_id=2845376 :

“Almost like i did that to prove a point. But lets take big sample sizes, shall we? In the 5 years prior to stone being traded, he played at a 72.4 point pace, all while being the superior defensive, and physical player. The guy was a legitimate selke candidate as a winger, which is very rare. Top 15 in hart voting, i think he had a couple runner ups for the selke.

Now let’s take Hertl’s last five years. We’ll include this season, as it is rather favorable for Hertl. 63.9 point pace (good for 63rd in the league for those with 100+ games over that stretch). Not one vote for any award. Not a single 5th place vote for the selke, or the hart, or anything.

So why should hertl get more than stone? Oh, and stone was younger, and had contract discussions prior to the trade.“

So, here are the main issues here:
1. Stone was clearly better, and far more valuable.
2. Contract talks had taken place before the trade, which is extremely rare.
3. Stone was younger.
4. The “Ottawa got fleeced,” argument holds a little water, but not much. Whether or not it was fleecing, it changed the market. When Matthews got his massive second deal, a bunch of GMs were probably pissed, because despite Dubas getting fleeced, it changed the market (maybe more so with Marner). The market will get re-set again, and I suppose there is a remote possibility that there’s some rare bidding war, and an unprecedented price for a player of Hertl’s caliber is paid, but I rather doubt it.

The first and a prospect price tag is far. If it’s a true top prospect, I don’t think a first is going with it. It’s likely that there will be half a dozen teams offering a first, and a kicker in forms of either another pick, or a prospect, and San Jose will be deciding between the kicker they like the most.

I gave you a reasonable argument citing stats, award voting, trade returns, and contract stuff, and asked why you think hertl is worth more. Is that unreasonable on a site that is dedicated to discussion. I ask why you disagree and you scoff and get all snippy and try to make short, rather dim witted jokes. Instead, why not just say why you think hertl gets more? If you can’t back up your main point, i think everyone’s just going to assume it’s because youre a sharks fan and have been blinded.

Just put him on the ignore list. Smarter than talking to a brick wall.

That’s a thing? Sweet

everything you spoke about above draws merit save for a few points.
#1 Dubas was fleeced almost as bad as Boston was in the Thornton trade, and that’s hard to argue!
#2 yes stone is a very good player but he isn’t far and away better defensively, yes he is better but Hertl is also an above average defender and 2way player.
#3 Hertl is a center and stone is a winger and Centers do tend to be valued more in trade markets.
#4 when it comes to awards typically west coast players have a harder time winning due to east coast bias, but saying that i am a little shocked hertl hasn’t garnered at least a few votes for some of those awards.

and with trade comparisons I would use more current trades as a bar to judge his value by. with that assessment I think it’s fair to assume sharks would get more than Arizona did for Dvorak but less than Eichel. Dvorak got a 1st and a 2nd
Eichel got Tuch a top 6 forward, Kregs a former 1st and a B level prospect, as well as a 1st and a 2nd.
because Hertl is on an expiring contract his value should be closer to Dvorak than Eichel IMO. so that would be about 2-1sts, or a 1st and a 1st round value prospect.
The asking might scare away multiple teams, but there is also the possibility of retention for cap strapped teams to help increase his value.

at the end of the day neither of us know 100% what his value is and this is pure speculation on both of our posts.

But for reference this is the rumor of what the sharks are looking for from sharks insider Kevin Kurtz who has been fairly accurate with his insider information.

Along with a first-round pick, they would have to get at least one potential high-end prospect in return, too, and preferably someone who could play NHL games ahead of or along the same timeline as guys like William Eklund, Thomas Bordeleau and some of the other prospects who are around 19 or 20 years old (in other words, probably two years away). In a perfect world that player is probably a center, but considering Ryan Merkley’s declining stock and Brent Burns’ advancing age, a defenseman might be just as welcomed.

Refreshing! A thought out debate. I can’t tell you how frustrated I’ve been with the Sharks fanbase just turning and saying, “it’s not even worth debating.”

In response to your post:
For #2, i think that’s more true now than it was at the time of the stone trade. Stone, at that time, really was head and shoulders above what hertl is defensively today. That’s not a knock on Hertl, but Stone was something else. Being a finalist for the selke at the winger is very impressive and rare.
#3 I do agree that centers are worth more, but at the time of the trade Stone was certainly in the discussion for most effective winger in the league. I don’t think he was, but that kind of offensive production with that physicality and defensive play is just so rare.
#4 when it comes to awards, awful teams like Ottawa are frequently forgotten too.

I just wouldn’t place too much stock in trade for guys with four or five years left. I don’t think it really pertains to this at all. I think Kevin Hayes is the most recent move that’s somewhat similar. I think the general consensus is Winnipeg overpaid, and that was a 1st, and two kind of low value kickers. Now, Hertl is better, so I would expect that much if not more.

I do think a first, and a solid, close to NHL ready prospect is a very fair price tag.

I would have loved for the sharks to get Stone over Kane, or Karlsson for that matter! the need for power forwards with speed and offensive skill who also are defensively sound is a big need for most teams in the NHL. that's why the sharks put up with so much from Kane till now, and why there will be at least a few teams willing to trade for him if the sharks retain, despite his baggage he is still a 25-30 goal scoring power forward.

I think the trade value of Hertl will be hard to gauge, your fair in your assessment of a 1st and a close to NHL ready prospect.
the thing the sharks have in their favor is there aren't many top 6 centers who are available this trade deadline and of the ones left since Dvorak and Eichel are gone are no where near Hertl's level.
the sharks have another thing going for them in their favor, they have come out multiple times and said "we don't want to trade Hertl and will only consider a ridiculous offer if we do move him".
Teams who are desperate for a top 30 NHL Center (yes I feel he it a top 30 c in the league) for the playoffs will have to come with a HIGH offer or the sharks will be content to keep him and continue to work on an extension.

If I was the sharks GM I would be wiling to Trade Hertl 50% retained for a 1st, a middle round pick and a young (2021 or 2020 pick that's showing promise) RD or C prospect, or a 1st and a middle 6 RW/ C. weather or not that happens is yet to be seen.

Yes, i think most of this is fair.

However, it’s one thing to say, “we don’t want to trade Hertl,” but every day he isn’t extending between now and the deadline will reduce the number of GMs that believe that.

1st, prospect, and pick is totally fair.

The majority of your fellow sharks fans on here would see a trade like that and just say, “LOL”

Pretty sure I saw one that involved two firsts+ and a sharks fan gave the whole, “sharks block your number, schtick.”

2 firsts would be a HARD trade to turn down. If Hertl was game I would drop our asking down a ton and trade him to an Edmonton or TBL 50% retained with the expectation they trade us back his rights before the new NHL year so we can resign him before FA. but both Hertl and the other team would have to be in agreement and I think there might be rules against that kind of deal since I've never seen it done before.