long term solutions

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Créé par: pharrow

Équipe: 2021-22 Maple Leafs de Toronto

Date de création initiale: 21 nov. 2021

Publié: 21 nov. 2021

Mode - plafond salarial: Basique

Description

TOR needs to come up with real solutions for it's defense if it's going to win a cup.
You can already tell this team is designed to make two cores.
The first one that is now, and another one in 4 years.
The problem is, who will the 2nd core include. While a guy like JT might not be back or if he is back on a much cheaper deal as he'll be 35, Guys like Matthews are going to be paid more. That is if he even sticks around. I have a hard time believing looking at how the team has been run that he will. They can't win with their current strategy. His only real reason for staying would be the money.
They have no depth, the GM has no ability to put depth together. All their "young" players will be on the wrong side of 30 midway into the 2nd core. That's not a good sign.
His friends on the team will probably be gone as there is no way in hell I can see this team signing Marner to another cluster F deal. Furthermore, they will need to find a legit 2C after JT ages out. Which isn't easy to do.
So if this team is going to win, it's probably going to be in the next 3 years.
None of their current prospects or picks are going to help that window. A lot of that starts with the fact that they have drafted poorly.
They have had Matthews for 6 years now.
If you take out Matthews, Marner and Nylander. How many quality draft picks do you see there over the last 6 years?
The over hyped Robertson and basically nothing that really stands out.
It starts by drafting everyone who is 5'9. Which is basically the minimum hockey height because they don't want to tell you a guy is 5'4.
This team needs help on Defense in the next 3 years and it needs it cheap. It starts one piece at a time. It might cost you, but given what else they have done, I don't know how anyone can complain. You gave up a 1st round pick for Nick Foligno, as a rental.
I have to think Dubas is gone for those kind of moves, when the blueline is a joke.

Transactions

TOR

Joseph, Pierre-Olivier

Détails additionnels:

TOR is going nowhere with their current defense.
Their biggest issue is they need guys on the cheap. Odds of teams giving up a young cost controlled defenseman for cheap is nil. Rodion is an OK prospect. He has not really done anything yet. The 1st round pick should be late round.
POJ can be resigned for next to nothing for the next 2 years giving TOR a defenseman at the very least a 3 year player cost controlled to help with their cap.
Given Muzzin's decline it can help solidify their defense. They will still need to find another RD. As what they currently have sucks. But they sure as hell get an upgrade over Holl, Dermott, Sandin, and TL.
Penguins can make this move because they are set at LD long term. I don't see them moving any of their LD, their D is what is carrying the team with all the injuries. It wasn't till the D got injured/covid that the team fell apart.

PIT

Amirov, Rodion
Choix de 1e ronde en 2022 (TOR)

Transactions impliquant une retenue de salaire

Phil Kessel: 1 200 000 $ (15%)

Repêchage	1e ronde	2e ronde	3e ronde	4e ronde	5e ronde	6e ronde	7e ronde
2022
2023
2024

FORMATION

VUE À LONG TERME

INTÉGRÉ

TEXTE INTÉGRÉ

TAILLE DE LA FORMATION	PLAFOND SALARIAL	CAP HIT	EXCÉDENTS	BONIS	ESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
23	81 500 000 $	79 276 449 $	0 $	612 500 $	2 223 551 $

Ailier gauche	Centre	Ailier droit
Ritchie, Nick 2 500 000 $2 500 000 $ AG UFA - 2	Matthews, Auston 11 640 250 $11 640 250 $ C UFA - 3	Marner, Mitchell 10 903 000 $10 903 000 $ AD UFA - 4
Engvall, Pierre 1 250 000 $1 250 000 $ AD, AG UFA - 1	Tavares, John 11 000 000 $11 000 000 $ C, AG NMC UFA - 4	Nylander, William 6 962 366 $6 962 366 $ AD UFA - 3
Bunting, Michael 950 000 $950 000 $ AG UFA - 2	Kerfoot, Alexander 3 500 000 $3 500 000 $ AG, C, AD UFA - 2	Kase, Ondrej 1 250 000 $1 250 000 $ AD UFA - 1
	Kämpf, David 1 500 000 $1 500 000 $ C UFA - 2	Simmonds, Wayne 900 000 $900 000 $ AD, AG NTC UFA - 2
	Semyonov, Kirill 825 000 $825 000 $ C UFA - 1
	Spezza, Jason 750 000 $750 000 $ C, AD UFA - 1

Défenseur gaucher	Défenseur droitier	Gardien de but
Muzzin, Jake 5 625 000 $5 625 000 $ DG NTC UFA - 3	Brodie, TJ 5 000 000 $5 000 000 $ DG/DD NTC UFA - 3	Campbell, Jack 1 650 000 $1 650 000 $ G UFA - 1
Rielly, Morgan 5 000 000 $5 000 000 $ DG NMC UFA - 1	Holl, Justin 2 000 000 $2 000 000 $ DD M-NTC UFA - 2	Woll, Joseph 750 000 $750 000 $ G RFA - 1
Dermott, Travis 1 500 000 $1 500 000 $ DG/DD UFA - 2	Liljegren, Timothy 863 333 $863 333 $ (400 000 $$400K) DD RFA - 1
Sandin, Rasmus 894 167 $894 167 $ DG UFA - 1
Joseph, Pierre-Olivier 863 333 $863 333 $ (212 500 $$212K) DG RFA - 1

Laissés de côté	Liste des blessés (IR)	Liste des blessés à long terme (LTIR)
		Mrázek, Petr 3 800 000 $3 800 000 $ G M-NTC UFA - 3
		Mikheyev, Ilya 1 645 000 $1 645 000 $ AG, AD UFA - 1

21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 8

#26

pharrow

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Banni

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Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood

Everyone and your opinion are two things that are not the same. Toronto is top 5 defensively. Reality backs it up. They also kept Montreal to under 2 goals a game in the playoffs. But again, who cares about reality when you can be a troll

you are the only one who looks at that defense as being top 5. It's you, you alone.

21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 10

#27

Byrr

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Modifié 21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 16

Quoting: pharrow

Yawn....
I hate to break it to you, NHL players don't get in trouble holding onto the puck. Teams can easily play keep away. Defensemen can easily hold the puck behind the cage.

More tell me you don't watch hockey without telling me you don't watch hockey.

Quoting: pharrow

You can bark up the tree all day but this teams defense is holding it back. But TOR fans are free to think moves like Ritchie and Simmods are the reason it doesn't win.
The problem has been, and continues to be the blue line. They have solved none of it.

You make this argument but you haven't been able to support it at all and all the evidence would seem to suggest otherwise. Prove it.

21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 13

#28

PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood

Banni

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Quoting: pharrow

you are the only one who looks at that defense as being top 5. It's you, you alone.

You are a sad troll. Everyone knows that

21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 23

#29

pharrow

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Quoting: Nate

Amirov had a genuine chance in a KHL team's top 6 before he sustained an unlucky injury. The guy is a beast and is going to be fantastic. Type all you want, this is a BAD trade

stop, you're over hyping a prospect. He's not that good. Beast? come on.
As I said, he's still playing in the KHL. A league that isn't exactly known for "development" and even you should know this as the leafs have tried their "beasts" from the KHL before and seen it go nowhere.
It is a very hit or miss league, more so than others. Everyone wants the next Panarin. But that has been rare. As I said. he should have been in the AHL this year. He's not. It's stunting his growth as a player. He hasn't done anything as a prospect to really increase his value more than what his draft status was. AKA mid round pick. You are hard pressed to prove that he has because the numbers don't lie.

21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 24

#30

DeletedACGMAccount

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Quoting: pharrow

Yeah okay, you have very clearly never watched Amirov play. Lets come back to this in a few years time.

21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 29

#31

pharrow

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Quoting: Byrr

More tell me you don't watch hockey without telling me you don't watch hockey.

You make this argument but you haven't been able to support it at all and all the evidence would seem to suggest otherwise. Prove it.

You keep asking to prove it and then when I do you try to avoid it and go "prove it"

I'm not the one over here putting up Sandin's name talking about "two way dominance".
If you can't realize how absurd your position is, that is on you.
This is not a player who has put up numbers to suggest he's a real solution to help this team win a cup. Period.
The burden of proof for that isn't on me. It's on you.
I've shown the number don't say he is. You post some chart about advanced analytics and "two way dominance" and follow some rabbit hole to absurdity.
When all reality shows he's not a dominate player, anything but that.
This is how leafs fans got into Holl is a top 4 defenseman and pay him 2 million per that now leafs fans want to dump.
Be objective for once.
This team needs young, cost controlled, defensive help, that is there for the entirety of it's 1st core window.
You don't have that.

21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 35

#32

pharrow

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Quoting: Nate

Yeah okay, you have very clearly never watched Amirov play. Lets come back to this in a few years time.

we don't have to come back to this "in a few years time" and neither one of us is going to bother doing that.

If you take 11-20 picks. There are already what 5-6 guys there out performing him. 1 is also a goalie so I'm throwing that one out as it's apples to oranges. And the rest are basically spinning tires like he is, not really advancing their draft status.

So please by all means stop over hyping a prospect. I think there are 4 guys in that 11-20 range that are already making an NHL impact. If he was a "beast" he'd be there too.
But he's not. He's done nothing to prove that he is yet either.
There is a honesty about evaluating a player. You're not being honest about it. You are having some emotional attachment to it because he's a leaf. Let that go.

21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 37

#33

Byrr

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Quoting: pharrow

I'm not the one over here putting up Sandin's name talking about "two way dominance".
If you can't realize how absurd your position is, that is on you.

No, you are the one saying Sandin doesn't belong in the NHL. A claim you quickly walked away from when challenged on it probably because you realized how absurd it was.

Quote:

Be objective for once.
This team needs young, cost controlled, defensive help, that is there for the entirety of it's 1st core window.
You don't have that.

Being objective is ironic coming from you. Again, you weren't able to defend your position on the Leafs defense. You've only provided an example of a claim you were already shown to be wrong on, one you even backed away from. So again, if the claims you've made are so absurd that you even ran away from them, why should anyone listen to the new ones you are making? Show your work, prove it. I'll even give you a starting place. The Leafs are 4th in the NHL right now for goals against per game.

21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 39

#34

DeletedACGMAccount

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Quoting: pharrow

coming from someone with your name.

Considering you are someone that primarily makes Penguins ACGM teams I can assume you're a pittsburgh fan. If that were the case, then as a Pittsburgh fan why would you want to trade away a defense prospect you have praised very highly for someone you claim to be an "OK prospect"? Makes no sense to me...

21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 42

#35

pharrow

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Quoting: Byrr

No, you are the one saying Sandin doesn't belong in the NHL. A claim you quickly walked away from when challenged on it probably because you realized how absurd it was.

Quote:

Be objective for once.
This team needs young, cost controlled, defensive help, that is there for the entirety of it's 1st core window.
You don't have that.

I never said "he didn't belong in the NHL" lets just stop there. I said he sucks.
Due to the total lack of defenseman I'd never had said that. FFS Jack Johnson still gets NHL playing time. We aren't talking about a high bar here.
But that doesn't mean Jack Johnson doesn't suck balls as a defenseman.
At some point you are going to have to be honest with yourself about that reality. Simply finding an open space on an NHL team does not make you a "good" defenseman. That is dethatched from all reality and there are many teams who can claim examples of that. Including yours!

Which is the whole being objective part that you seem to fail to understand.

21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 43

#36

Byrr

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Quoting: pharrow

I never said "he didn't belong in the NHL" lets just stop there. I said he sucks.

Quoting: pharrow

'This is why the team can not win. TOR fans have clutched on to Holl is a top 4 defenseman, and Sandin and Dermott are legit NHL players.
They are not.'

Your words. Not a legit NHL defenseman. You are even running away from what you've said earlier in the thread now. Why should anyone listen to you?

21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 47

#37

pharrow

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Quoting: Nate

I have already stated this.
They are already set long term on defense. And while there might be a contract on Matheson they'd like to move, that's probably not happening. Not that he's a bad player, he's not.
But there is no space for him there, and if they can get value from him, which they can, they should move him at this point. Because the reality is, they aren't going to be a cup contender again with their core. They might make the playoffs, but they aren't going to win. So they should start building for their future with what they have. As the LD is tied up for years to come, move the prospect who needs to make his jump into the league.

21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 50

#38

pharrow

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Quoting: Byrr

Your words. Not a legit NHL defenseman. You are even running away from what you've said earlier in the thread now, thats how pathetic you've become.

I hate to break it to you, but the whole league is filled with "not a legit NHL defenseman".
It's not hard to claim that. I think 1/2 to 1/3 of the teams can claim that they have not legit NHL defensemen playing for them.
No one is running from anything.
Unless you would like to claim guys like Chara and Jack Johnson are legit NHL defensemen.
Tell me is Ruhwede a legit NHL defensemen?

This is the problem in the NHL where there is a serious lack of defense, which is why a guy like Jones got 9.5 million and JJ still gets contracts.
It's just another way of saying, they suck.

21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 53

#39

Byrr

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Quoting: pharrow

So what you are saying is that your expectations of a 3rd pair defenseman are too high. You having bad opinions shouldn't surprise anyone given the opinions you've had so far in this thread, its time to practice that objectivity you hold so dearly and take part in some self-reflection.

21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 58

#40

pharrow

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Quoting: Byrr

So what you are saying is that your expectations of a 3rd pair defenseman are too high. You having bad opinions shouldn't surprise anyone given the opinions you've had so far in this thread, its time to be objective and have take part in some self-reflection.

I don't think anyone watching these defensemen play think their expectations are "too high".
I assure you, no one watching Jack Johnson playing over the past years thinks the expectations were "too high".

Fact is your blinders make your expectations too low, which is why you think the defense isn't the problem......when it is.
Don't worry, in the offseason, you'll be making 90000000000000000 acgm to "fix the defense" again.
Or maybe you can come back down to earth and realize you should probably be looking to find actual solutions for it now.
But hey, spend another 1st on Foligno, that will solve the problem.

21 nov. 2021 à 18 h 59

#41

Byrr

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Quoting: pharrow

Come back down to earth? You are claiming that half the league have defensemen who shouldn't be playing in the NHL and that your expectations are reasonable. Time to get your head out of your ass.

It's also the facts which you ran away from which say the Leafs defense isn't a problem. 4th lower goals against per game. Pure numbers. Pure facts. Pure objectivity. All things you've sorely lacked in trying to make your point in this thread.

21 nov. 2021 à 19 h 5

#42

pharrow

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Quoting: Byrr

Come back down to earth? You are claiming that half the league have defensemen who shouldn't be playing in the NHL. Time to get your head out of your ass.

Again I never said they shouldn't be playing in the NHL. Your words not mine.
I have stated this over and over again but somehow it's not sinking in. There is a shortage of legit NHL defensemen. People have to plug holes best they can. But that doesn't mean they are NHL quality defensemen and don't suck. Sadly they do. But teams got to do what teams got to do. But lets not pretend it's not holding teams back. It is. Or instead, we can blame it on "grit" and keep dragging in Ritchie and Simmonds and wasting 1st round picks on Foligno......because that will fix it.

21 nov. 2021 à 19 h 10

#43

pharrow

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Quoting: Byrr

Can't handle the facts so he doesn't even quote them. Pathetic.

"two way Dominance" kind of fact or Holl is a top 4 defenseman kind of facts?

21 nov. 2021 à 19 h 12

#44

Byrr

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Quoting: pharrow

"two way Dominance" kind of fact or Holl is a top 4 defenseman kind of facts?

4th lowest goals against per game in the league kind of facts. 1 stat which disproves your entire premise kind of facts.

Saskleaf a aimé ceci.

21 nov. 2021 à 19 h 27

#45

pharrow

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Quoting: Byrr

4th lowest goals against per game in the league kind of facts. 1 stat which disproves your entire premise kind of facts.

yeah come playoffs that doesn't mean anything.
I mean come on, 1/2 your games have been against MTL, OTT and CHI . 9 out of 19 games.
but go one, 4th lowest goals. Hell 1 other games against a PIT team been injured down to nothing where you gave up 7 goals and scored 0.
But hey facts.
I said this before I'll say it again. I don't care what your regular season numbers say. It's garbage in garbage out. Stats are just another easily manipulated story. You see what you want to see.

21 nov. 2021 à 19 h 29

#46

Byrr

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Quoting: pharrow

yeah come playoffs that doesn't mean anything.
I mean come on, 1/2 your games have been against MTL, OTT and CHI . 9 out of 19 games.

So you can't even count? Figures. Use your fingers if you need to.

Saskleaf a aimé ceci.

21 nov. 2021 à 19 h 36

#47

pharrow

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Quoting: Byrr

So you can't even count? Figures. Use your fingers if you need to.

oh you're right, it's 10 games. 10 out of 19. Is that all you got. I mean honestly, I eye balled it and got pretty close as it looked like half. so you played basically 11 really bad teams, throw in the PIT team that was decimated and your bragging about 4th in goals against. Facts. Stats, whatever......
Hey maybe you can trade NYR , Reaves for a 1st this year. You know, grit will solve it.

21 nov. 2021 à 19 h 37

#48

Byrr

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Quoting: pharrow

I'll put this in a way that doesn't include numbers since you seem to struggle with them so much. You are saying the Leafs have played their entire seasons schedule of games against Montral(4), Ottawa(4) and Chicago(2) in their first 19 games of the season. Does that seem likely to you or is it something you should look at a bit more closely?

21 nov. 2021 à 19 h 42

#49

pharrow

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Quoting: Byrr

I'll put this in a way that doesn't include numbers since you seem to struggle with them so much. You are saying the Leafs have played their entire seasons schedule of games against Montral, Ottawa and Chicago in their first 19 games of the season. Does that seem likely to you or is it something you should look at a bit more closely?

oh wait the NHL.com site left the preseason games on the scroll.
that where the number comes from it's 5. + 1 on pit is 6.
Still you are over here acting like 4th in goals against against your schedule is impressive, it's not. You have played a lot of just horrible teams.
As I stated, stats let you see what you want to see. They don't mean your defense is good.

21 nov. 2021 à 19 h 42

#50

Byrr

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Quoting: pharrow

oh wait the NHL.com site left the preseason games on the scroll. .

You were as accurate about this as your argument is about the Leafs defense. Any time you bother to look at the objective facts, it shows these are just your bad subjective opinions.

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