Forums/Armchair-GM

well 14 day early deadline

Créé par: Leafs_fan13
Date de création initiale: jan 15, 2021
Publié: 15 jan à 1 h 08
Équipe: 2020-21 Maple Leafs de Toronto
Transactions
TOR
  1. Kempe, Adrian
  2. Roy, Matt
LAK
  1. Holl, Justin
  2. Engvall, Pierre
  3. 2021 2e round pick (TOR)
Détails additionnels:
if the leafs make the final four it turns too 2021 first.
Rachats de contrats
  • Mikhail Grabovski: 0 $
Transactions impliquant une retenue de salaire
  • Phil Kessel: 1 200 000 $ (15%)
ANNÉE DE REPÊCHAGERONDE 1RONDE 2RONDE 3RONDE 4RONDE 5RONDE 6RONDE 7
2021
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
2022
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
2023
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TOR
TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS BONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
2181 500 000 $80 474 741 $0 $0 $1 025 259 $
Ailier gaucheCentreAilier droit
TOR
Hyman, Zach
2 250 000 $
AG, AD
NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Matthews, Auston
11 640 250 $
C
UFA - 4
TOR
Marner, Mitchell
10 903 000 $
AD
UFA - 5
TOR
Mikheyev, Ilya
1 645 000 $
AG, AD
UFA - 2
TOR
Tavares, John
11 000 000 $
C
NMC
UFA - 5
TOR
Nylander, William
6 962 366 $
AD, AG
UFA - 4
LAK
Kempe, Adrian
2 000 000 $
AG, AD
RFA - 2
TOR
Kerfoot, Alexander
3 500 000 $
C, AG
UFA - 3
TOR
Simmonds, Wayne
1 500 000 $
AD, AG
NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Thornton, Joe
700 000 $
C, AG
NMC
UFA - 1
TOR
Spezza, Jason
700 000 $
C, AD
UFA - 1
TOR
Vesey, Jimmy
900 000 $
AG, AD
UFA - 1
Défenseur gaucherDéfenseur droitierGardien de but
TOR
Rielly, Morgan
5 000 000 $
DG
NTC
UFA - 2
TOR
Brodie, TJ
5 000 000 $
DD
NMC
UFA - 4
TOR
Andersen, Frederik
5 000 000 $
G
NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Muzzin, Jake
5 625 000 $
DG
NMC
UFA - 4
LAK
Roy, Matt
700 000 $
DD
UFA - 1
TOR
Campbell, Jack
1 650 000 $
G
UFA - 2
TOR
Lehtonen, Mikko
925 000 $
DG
UFA - 1
TOR
Dermott, Travis
874 125 $
DG/DD
RFA - 1
Laissés de côtéListe des blessés (IR)Liste des blessés à long terme (LTIR)
TOR
Dell, Aaron
800 000 $
G
UFA - 1
Équipe de réserve
TOR
Bogosian, Zach
1 000 000 $ (0 $)
DD
NTC
UFA - 1
TOR
Barabanov, Alexander
925 000 $ (0 $)
AD, AG
UFA - 1
TOR
Sandin, Rasmus
894 167 $ (0 $)
DG
RFA - 2
TOR
Robertson, Nicholas
821 667 $ (0 $)
AG
RFA - 4
TOR
Brooks, Adam
725 000 $ (0 $)
C
RFA - 2
TOR
Boyd, Travis
700 000 $ (0 $)
C, AD
UFA - 1

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15 jan à 1 h 13
#1
Rejoint: mai 2016
Messages: 7,092
Mentions "j'aime": 3,338
Roy > Holl.
Kempe >>>> Engvall.

A 2nd isn't nearly enough to offset the difference.

Easy no from LA.
Stgstg55 et OldNYIfan a aimé ceci.
15 jan à 1 h 22
#2
Xx_Zegras46_xX
Rejoint: déc 2019
Messages: 3,960
Mentions "j'aime": 1,658
LA easily declines
OldNYIfan a aimé ceci.
15 jan à 3 h 32
#3
Rejoint: jan 2019
Messages: 458
Mentions "j'aime": 239
Roy is the Kings best defenceman. No way he gets traded, especially for that price.
OldNYIfan a aimé ceci.
15 jan à 6 h 56
#4
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 22,663
Mentions "j'aime": 7,076
This is so overdone, A) Roy is the best defenceman to have won several make believe Norris Trophies by the age of 25 after 1 decent season. B) what a waste of assets. Holl is a good player, he makes 1 million and does exactly what we need him too.

Kempe is a good player but we don't really need him and spending a 1st for Roy over Holl is quite possibly not even an improvement, both have about the same amount of success and one did it while facing way tougher competition (Holl actually faces top competition, Roy got sheltered minutes).

This needs to stop.
15 jan à 7 h 13
#5
Always Next Year
Rejoint: fév 2020
Messages: 2,947
Mentions "j'aime": 1,752
theres nothing in this oackage that would even remotely interest LA, especially for those players
OldNYIfan a aimé ceci.
15 jan à 8 h 41
#6
FLA V4 AGM
Rejoint: nov 2020
Messages: 3,212
Mentions "j'aime": 1,317
Sure the leafs easily could use Kempe and Roy, but the value isn't right here.
OldNYIfan et MitchMarner_16 a aimé ceci.
15 jan à 9 h 12
#7
First NY Then LA
Rejoint: jun 2018
Messages: 20,493
Mentions "j'aime": 10,670
Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood
This is so overdone, A) Roy is the best defenceman to have won several make believe Norris Trophies by the age of 25 after 1 decent season. B) what a waste of assets. Holl is a good player, he makes 1 million and does exactly what we need him too.

Kempe is a good player but we don't really need him and spending a 1st for Roy over Holl is quite possibly not even an improvement, both have about the same amount of success and one did it while facing way tougher competition (Holl actually faces top competition, Roy got sheltered minutes).

This needs to stop.


"1 million"?!?!?

His cap hit is exactly equal to his compensation: $2 million for each of the three years of his contract. He's about to turn 29, so he's three years older than Roy, and costs 3 times as much even if he's an equivalent player. So assuming that their on-ice value is currently the same, Roy = Holl plus the 2021 second.
15 jan à 9 h 20
#8
Always Next Year
Rejoint: fév 2020
Messages: 2,947
Mentions "j'aime": 1,752
Quoting: OldNYIfan
"1 million"?!?!?

His cap hit is exactly equal to his compensation: $2 million for each of the three years of his contract. He's about to turn 29, so he's three years older than Roy, and costs 3 times as much even if he's an equivalent player. So assuming that their on-ice value is currently the same, Roy = Holl plus the 2021 second.



I haven't really seen anything from Roy or Holl that makes me think theyre worth much.

The biggest appeal to having roy, is that hes a capable bottom 4 dman, with a cap hit of only 700k. Holl is the same (skill wise), if not, a tad bit worse. However, the cap hits are what differentiate the values the most in my opinion.
OldNYIfan a aimé ceci.
15 jan à 9 h 34
#9
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 22,663
Mentions "j'aime": 7,076
Quoting: OldNYIfan
"1 million"?!?!?

His cap hit is exactly equal to his compensation: $2 million for each of the three years of his contract. He's about to turn 29, so he's three years older than Roy, and costs 3 times as much even if he's an equivalent player. So assuming that their on-ice value is currently the same, Roy = Holl plus the 2021 second.


How long is Roy's contract?
15 jan à 9 h 37
#10
Rejoint: fév 2019
Messages: 569
Mentions "j'aime": 103
Quoting: MitchMarner_16
I haven't really seen anything from Roy or Holl that makes me think theyre worth much.

The biggest appeal to having roy, is that hes a capable bottom 4 dman, with a cap hit of only 700k. Holl is the same (skill wise), if not, a tad bit worse. However, the cap hits are what differentiate the values the most in my opinion.


Because people hate solid defensive D. They want goals and think that defenceman should score 20+ goals a season and provide perfect D. In other words people have no idea what they are talking about. Holl has been very solid, plays the position properly and does his job the way it should be done. People don't pay attention to the stupid mistakes guys like Dermott make because they like him.
MitchMarner_16 a aimé ceci.
15 jan à 10 h 00
#11
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 22,663
Mentions "j'aime": 7,076
Quoting: OldNYIfan
"1 million"?!?!?

His cap hit is exactly equal to his compensation: $2 million for each of the three years of his contract. He's about to turn 29, so he's three years older than Roy, and costs 3 times as much even if he's an equivalent player. So assuming that their on-ice value is currently the same, Roy = Holl plus the 2021 second.


If Roy is so amazing, (which I doubt completely) he is going to make way more than Holl starting next year. He's also much smaller which normally I don't care about but with Holl he's big, physical and can skate. 2 million for our #4 and shutdown guy is a fantastic value. No need to use good assets to bring in more expensive pieces.
15 jan à 12 h 21
#12
First NY Then LA
Rejoint: jun 2018
Messages: 20,493
Mentions "j'aime": 10,670
Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood
How long is Roy's contract?


Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood
If Roy is so amazing, (which I doubt completely) he is going to make way more than Holl starting next year. He's also much smaller which normally I don't care about but with Holl he's big, physical and can skate. 2 million for our #4 and shutdown guy is a fantastic value. No need to use good assets to bring in more expensive pieces.


He's an RFA after this year so he could be under contract for anywhere from 2 to 5 years or more.

Nobody (including me) said that Roy is "amazing"; you're putting words in our mouths in order to set up a counter-argument. What I said was "assuming that their on-ice value is the same," Roy is worth more than Holl. Similarly, there is nobody on our side saying that Roy "is going to make way more than Holl starting next year." We expect him to get a contract similar to Sean Walker's. On the other hand, if he DOES prove to be a much-better-than-random player, wouldn't you want him on the Maple Leafs?

I'm not saying that either team should trade Roy for Holl, in any permutation of the deal. As you and others point out, Holl does just what is expected of him at a very economical cost.

Finally, I'm perplexed by your statement that "[there's] no need to use good assets to bring in more expensive pieces." Sure there is, if they're an appreciable improvement on what you've got. As a general principle (i.e., with no relation to this subject), wouldn't you exchange Alex Kerfoot for Pierre DuBois?
15 jan à 12 h 30
#13
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 22,663
Mentions "j'aime": 7,076
Quoting: OldNYIfan
He's an RFA after this year so he could be under contract for anywhere from 2 to 5 years or more.

Nobody (including me) said that Roy is "amazing"; you're putting words in our mouths in order to set up a counter-argument. What I said was "assuming that their on-ice value is the same," Roy is worth more than Holl. Similarly, there is nobody on our side saying that Roy "is going to make way more than Holl starting next year." We expect him to get a contract similar to Sean Walker's. On the other hand, if he DOES prove to be a much-better-than-random player, wouldn't you want him on the Maple Leafs?

I'm not saying that either team should trade Roy for Holl, in any permutation of the deal. As you and others point out, Holl does just what is expected of him at a very economical cost.

Finally, I'm perplexed by your statement that "[there's] no need to use good assets to bring in more expensive pieces." Sure there is, if they're an appreciable improvement on what you've got. As a general principle (i.e., with no relation to this subject), wouldn't you exchange Alex Kerfoot for Pierre DuBois?


Okay I want to say you are a very reasonable person on here and in no way do I mean to suggest you hold extreme opinions. However, I have seen countless posts where Roy is massively valued. Holl and a 2nd is a small pittance compared to some trades. Some have said it would need to be Liljegren or Sandin even. Which is ridiculous.

Roy is a late bloomer and at this point needs to A) face stiffer competition to prove he's as great as some say and B) do it for more than just one season. Same with Holl, no one who is at all reasonable will say he's a stud stay at home defender, but what can be said about him is that he was a very good #4 playing with Muzzin who had excellent stats (both advanced and traditional). While playing in a shutdown role against super hard competition and getting a lot of D zone starts.

So with that in mind, there isn't even a point to discussing a Roy for Holl trade. From TO's perspective there is no proof that it's an upgrade, and at 2 million, if Holl is exactly what he was last season, that is terrific value for the Leafs.

On a side note, I am completely done with the (The Leafs need any RHD from any team at all costs) crowd.
OldNYIfan a aimé ceci.
15 jan à 12 h 54
#14
Rejoint: mai 2016
Messages: 7,092
Mentions "j'aime": 3,338
Quoting: OldNYIfan
He's an RFA after this year so he could be under contract for anywhere from 2 to 5 years or more.

Nobody (including me) said that Roy is "amazing"; you're putting words in our mouths in order to set up a counter-argument. What I said was "assuming that their on-ice value is the same," Roy is worth more than Holl. Similarly, there is nobody on our side saying that Roy "is going to make way more than Holl starting next year." We expect him to get a contract similar to Sean Walker's. On the other hand, if he DOES prove to be a much-better-than-random player, wouldn't you want him on the Maple Leafs?

I'm not saying that either team should trade Roy for Holl, in any permutation of the deal. As you and others point out, Holl does just what is expected of him at a very economical cost.

Finally, I'm perplexed by your statement that "[there's] no need to use good assets to bring in more expensive pieces." Sure there is, if they're an appreciable improvement on what you've got. As a general principle (i.e., with no relation to this subject), wouldn't you exchange Alex Kerfoot for Pierre DuBois?


Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood
Okay I want to say you are a very reasonable person on here and in no way do I mean to suggest you hold extreme opinions. However, I have seen countless posts where Roy is massively valued. Holl and a 2nd is a small pittance compared to some trades. Some have said it would need to be Liljegren or Sandin even. Which is ridiculous.

Roy is a late bloomer and at this point needs to A) face stiffer competition to prove he's as great as some say and B) do it for more than just one season. Same with Holl, no one who is at all reasonable will say he's a stud stay at home defender, but what can be said about him is that he was a very good #4 playing with Muzzin who had excellent stats (both advanced and traditional). While playing in a shutdown role against super hard competition and getting a lot of D zone starts.

So with that in mind, there isn't even a point to discussing a Roy for Holl trade. From TO's perspective there is no proof that it's an upgrade, and at 2 million, if Holl is exactly what he was last season, that is terrific value for the Leafs.

On a side note, I am completely done with the (The Leafs need any RHD from any team at all costs) crowd.




Everyone creates these Roy to Toronto trades with with returns ranging from "future considerations" to "Auston Matthews". The return that LA would need to see to consider trading him is more than Toronto should pay. Roy's value to LA is significantly higher than his trade value, so he will not be traded. It's that simple.

So let's stop with all these trade proposals. It's not going to happen.
15 jan à 13 h 01
#15
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 22,663
Mentions "j'aime": 7,076
Quoting: tkecanuck341
Everyone creates these Roy to Toronto trades with with returns ranging from "future considerations" to "Auston Matthews". The return that LA would need to see to consider trading him is more than Toronto should pay. Roy's value to LA is significantly higher than his trade value, so he will not be traded. It's that simple.

So let's stop with all these trade proposals. It's not going to happen.


Amen!
OldNYIfan a aimé ceci.
15 jan à 15 h 13
#16
First NY Then LA
Rejoint: jun 2018
Messages: 20,493
Mentions "j'aime": 10,670
Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood
Okay I want to say you are a very reasonable person on here and in no way do I mean to suggest you hold extreme opinions. However, I have seen countless posts where Roy is massively valued. Holl and a 2nd is a small pittance compared to some trades. Some have said it would need to be Liljegren or Sandin even. Which is ridiculous.

Roy is a late bloomer and at this point needs to A) face stiffer competition to prove he's as great as some say and B) do it for more than just one season. Same with Holl, no one who is at all reasonable will say he's a stud stay at home defender, but what can be said about him is that he was a very good #4 playing with Muzzin who had excellent stats (both advanced and traditional). While playing in a shutdown role against super hard competition and getting a lot of D zone starts.

So with that in mind, there isn't even a point to discussing a Roy for Holl trade. From TO's perspective there is no proof that it's an upgrade, and at 2 million, if Holl is exactly what he was last season, that is terrific value for the Leafs.

On a side note, I am completely done with the (The Leafs need any RHD from any team at all costs) crowd.


And I find every opinion you express on CF worth reading and always well reasoned and highly informed, so it should come as no surprise that I agree with everything you say in this last comment.

My esteemed colleague @tkecanuck341 accurately sums up the situation: the return LA would want for Roy "is more than Toronto should pay" due to Roy's value to the Kings, not necessarily his intrinsic value. My "Roy = Holl plus [Toronto's] 2021 second" formulation was meant to express the same opinion in a different and perhaps too simplistic manner. Roy and Holl should stay right where they are because they fit their respective teams' needs.
15 jan à 15 h 42
#17
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 22,663
Mentions "j'aime": 7,076
Quoting: OldNYIfan
And I find every opinion you express on CF worth reading and always well reasoned and highly informed, so it should come as no surprise that I agree with everything you say in this last comment.

My esteemed colleague @tkecanuck341 accurately sums up the situation: the return LA would want for Roy "is more than Toronto should pay" due to Roy's value to the Kings, not necessarily his intrinsic value. My "Roy = Holl plus [Toronto's] 2021 second" formulation was meant to express the same opinion in a different and perhaps too simplistic manner. Roy and Holl should stay right where they are because they fit their respective teams' needs.


Cheers my friend! Have a great weekend!
OldNYIfan a aimé ceci.
15 jan à 20 h 05
#18
First NY Then LA
Rejoint: jun 2018
Messages: 20,493
Mentions "j'aime": 10,670
Quoting: PleaseBanMeForMyOwnGood
Cheers my friend! Have a great weekend!


You don't have to wish it on me -- it's going to be 89 degrees here tomorrow, or, with the wind-chill factor, 90.
 
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