That would be great, but it is very far from a guarantee in my eyes. This team brought in a lot of depth and has nowhere to play them. Nor do they seem to care at all about the future - just winning now (with a team that has not shown that it has the ability to win anything).



The young players demanded top dollar (often beyond top dollar) before they had accomplished anything. Dubas took the job. I don't think that their age is any excuse at all.



I think that you are looking at this with ridiculously rose-coloured and biased glasses. Yes, the loss in 2013 was embarrassing - but was a completely inexperienced team that hadn't made the playoffs in 7 years. This current team is far more embarrassing. Ridiculously highly paid players who don't care. A team that loses to their own zamboni driver. A team which fails to make the playoffs - something that no one would have even thought was possible 2 years before.



Again, I think that you are looking at this with ridiculously rose-coloured glasses. This team had stunk all season long. They were tied for 8/9th spot in the conference at the time of the pause (and had they lost that final game - a game they won 2 - 1 scoring in the third period - they would have been tied for 10/11th and Florida would been in the third spot in the division). They had been in a months long battle with Florida to see which team could suck more fall out of the #3 spot in the division (and therefore out of the playoffs). The team was so embarrassing that management had given up on improving the team at the trade deadline. They had just finished a California road trip in which they lost to all three of the worst teams in the western conference (getting out-scored 3 - 8 in the process). The day before the pause there was no confidence coming from almost anyone that this team was going to make the playoffs.

Then of course with some time off the Toronto fanbase goes into a state of delirium again and believes that the Leafs' are going to blow Columbus out of the water - and instead the team sucked again. Sucked badly. It wasn't amazing goaltending they lost to. They got completely outplayed by a team with heart. A team that would give anything to win every battle vs a team that was fine with losing every battle.



They didn't just rush Sandin - they put him in a position in which he was guaranteed to fail, to lose confidence, and when they had the chance to dramatically improve that situation (signing Bogo) they refused to do so. Unlike last offseason when Sandin was one of the first players training in Toronto long before camp started (as is the case with Robertson this off-season), he has stayed in Sweden. He knows that he and Lilly have been completely buried on the depth chart. It tells me a lot about how badly the Leafs have completely ****ed up his development (something that was easy to see coming, but which rose-coloured glasses fans refused to see) and what he thinks about his chances of making this team and his future with the team (or lack of a future as far as I am concerned).

If the team was only thinking about winning now they would've picked up Bogo at the deadline and play Sandin regularly. Yes 2013 was inexperienced yet a team that is like half of the age of the 2013 team. But sure. I thought we'd beat CBJ not crush them. And if you don't think it wasn't great goaltending I'm done. Leafs had a team shooting% of like 2 over the series. That's hilarious.

That was an emotional reaction to an embarrassing loss. It had nothing to do with team strategy which was, until that loss, to bring him in.



The Leafs' didn't have a team shooting% of 2% over the series, although no doubt this lie is going to live forever. They had a shooting percentage of 5.3%. Yes, their 5v5 shooting percentage was low (against both goalies), but their shooting percentage outside of 5v5 was high (again against both goalies) - high among all playoff teams, higher than they had during the regular season and that completely destroys the fantasy that the Leafs' went up against great goaltending. They didn't. They went up against average goaltending If you were actually compare the Leafs' 152 5v5 shots against Columbus against the 5v5 shots from a period of regular season it was easy to see that the quality of 5v5 shots by the Leafs in the playoffs were completely dreadful.

In game 5, Auston Matthews attempts a backhand shot clearly aiming for a top corner, but the D gets his stick on Matthews' stick almost completely stopping the shot which then dribbles the 20 or 30 centimeters to the goalies pads at such an anemic pace that the average blind-folded 3-year-old would have stopped with ease - ohhh look at the super amazing goaltending.

Matthews follows that up with a "shot" 1 second later where he pushes his stick with minimal force (again being stopped by the opposing D's stick) against the goalie's pad and touches the puck in the process - ohhhh look at the super amazing goaltending.

Both those are considered high danger CFs by the advanced stats gurus.

Columbus simply destroyed the Leafs at 5v5. This was well known at the time of series to anyone who watched the game, but since advanced stats goofs who don't understand the game have tried to change narrative. It is just one more reason why they should be completely ignored.

If the team was only thinking about winning now they would've picked up Bogo at the deadline and play Sandin regularly. Yes 2013 was inexperienced yet a team that is like half of the age of the 2013 team. But sure. I thought we'd beat CBJ not crush them. And if you don't think it wasn't great goaltending I'm done. Leafs had a team shooting% of like 2 over the series. That's hilarious.[/quote]

Wow man. I would just probably stop or have stopped a long time ago @DJSums17, @Miles_Togo seems to be winning this argument. He’s been replying to each comment one by one and been picking them apart with examples, stats, proof and logic. You seem to be fighting a losing battle. Jump off the ship!!

It's bizarre. Just looking at 5v5 statistics can't tell anyone whether the Leafs' faced great goaltending or couldn't overcome strong systems and strong defense, but the advanced stats people will decide without a doubt that it was whichever one suits their agenda. The fact that the Leafs' scored well outside of 5v5 situations provides some indication that they couldn't deal with Colombus' 5v5 system as they had no problem scoring on these "super amazing goalies" outside of 5v5 and the same thing was seen with both goalies also provides some indication that this was systems and good defense matched with a lack of heart from the Leafs. The fact that this was systems, good defense and uninspired play from the Leafs is completely confirmed by watching the games.

And of course the idea that the Leafs' couldn't possibly shoot at around 2% at 5v5 for the series unless it was super amazing goaltending doesn't hold up at all considering the Leafs' finished the regular season shooting at 2.17% over the final 4 games with 3 of those 4 games coming against the 3 weakest teams in the Western Conference - and absolutely no one made the claim that this was due to amazing goaltending, because anyone who watched the games saw (as they had seen all season long) that the Leafs' simply would fold against teams who tried to make it tough for them.

I think that you are looking at this with ridiculously rose-coloured and biased glasses. Yes, the loss in 2013 was embarrassing - but was a completely inexperienced team that hadn't made the playoffs in 7 years. This current team is far more embarrassing. Ridiculously highly paid players who don't care. A team that loses to their own zamboni driver. A team which fails to make the playoffs - something that no one would have even thought was possible 2 years before.



Again, I think that you are looking at this with ridiculously rose-coloured glasses. This team had stunk all season long. They were tied for 8/9th spot in the conference at the time of the pause (and had they lost that final game - a game they won 2 - 1 scoring in the third period - they would have been tied for 10/11th and Florida would been in the third spot in the division). They had been in a months long battle with Florida to see which team could suck more fall out of the #3 spot in the division (and therefore out of the playoffs). The team was so embarrassing that management had given up on improving the team at the trade deadline. They had just finished a California road trip in which they lost to all three of the worst teams in the western conference (getting out-scored 3 - 8 in the process). The day before the pause there was no confidence coming from almost anyone that this team was going to make the playoffs.

Then of course with some time off the Toronto fanbase goes into a state of delirium again and believes that the Leafs' are going to blow Columbus out of the water - and instead the team sucked again. Sucked badly. It wasn't amazing goaltending they lost to. They got completely outplayed by a team with heart. A team that would give anything to win every battle vs a team that was fine with losing every battle.



They didn't just rush Sandin - they put him in a position in which he was guaranteed to fail, to lose confidence, and when they had the chance to dramatically improve that situation (signing Bogo) they refused to do so. Unlike last offseason when Sandin was one of the first players training in Toronto long before camp started (as is the case with Robertson this off-season), he has stayed in Sweden. He knows that he and Lilly have been completely buried on the depth chart. It tells me a lot about how badly the Leafs have completely ****ed up his development (something that was easy to see coming, but which rose-coloured glasses fans refused to see) and what he thinks about his chances of making this team and his future with the team (or lack of a future as far as I am concerned).[/quote]

If the team was only thinking about winning now they would've picked up Bogo at the deadline and play Sandin regularly. Yes 2013 was inexperienced yet a team that is like half of the age of the 2013 team. But sure. I thought we'd beat CBJ not crush them. And if you don't think it wasn't great goaltending I'm done. Leafs had a team shooting% of like 2 over the series. That's hilarious.[/quote]

Wow man. I would just probably stop or have stopped a long time ago @DJSums17, @Miles_Togo seems to be winning this argument. He’s been replying to each comment one by one and been picking them apart with examples, stats, proof and logic. You seem to be fighting a losing battle. Jump off the ship!![/quote]

Because you say more doesn't mean their points are right. There's no point in arguing with someone that won't see the other side. I'm not into talking to walls thanks.

If the team was only thinking about winning now they would've picked up Bogo at the deadline and play Sandin regularly. Yes 2013 was inexperienced yet a team that is like half of the age of the 2013 team. But sure. I thought we'd beat CBJ not crush them. And if you don't think it wasn't great goaltending I'm done. Leafs had a team shooting% of like 2 over the series. That's hilarious.[/quote]

Wow man. I would just probably stop or have stopped a long time ago @DJSums17, @Miles_Togo seems to be winning this argument. He’s been replying to each comment one by one and been picking them apart with examples, stats, proof and logic. You seem to be fighting a losing battle. Jump off the ship!![/quote]

Because you say more doesn't mean their points are right. There's no point in arguing with someone that won't see the other side. I'm not into talking to walls thanks.[/quote]

Lol. I think he was doing a good job of address each point or counter point!! But ya, it’s hard to even argue on Thai site.

If I write something that lomg. I can tell the other person didn’t even read the whole thing. I read everyones whole post if they tag me in it. But half the time, I’m just like I’m not writing this and arguing if I don’t feel like u are reading everything I write. I try to make them short. But if they come out longer. Like I said, I can tell, 75% of the people u are debating with, won’t read the whole thing. And I do, I read it all b4 I respond.

If the team was only thinking about winning now they would've picked up Bogo at the deadline and play Sandin regularly. Yes 2013 was inexperienced yet a team that is like half of the age of the 2013 team. But sure. I thought we'd beat CBJ not crush them. And if you don't think it wasn't great goaltending I'm done. Leafs had a team shooting% of like 2 over the series. That's hilarious.[/quote]

Wow man. I would just probably stop or have stopped a long time ago @DJSums17, @Miles_Togo seems to be winning this argument. He’s been replying to each comment one by one and been picking them apart with examples, stats, proof and logic. You seem to be fighting a losing battle. Jump off the ship!![/quote]

Because you say more doesn't mean their points are right. There's no point in arguing with someone that won't see the other side. I'm not into talking to walls thanks.[/quote]

Lol. I think he was doing a good job of address each point or counter point!! But ya, it’s hard to even argue on Thai site.

If I write something that lomg. I can tell the other person didn’t even read the whole thing. I read everyones whole post if they tag me in it. But half the time, I’m just like I’m not writing this and arguing if I don’t feel like u are reading everything I write. I try to make them short. But if they come out longer. Like I said, I can tell, 75% of the people u are debating with, won’t read the whole thing. And I do, I read it all b4 I respond.[/quote]

Don't get me wrong I read all the points and some are right. Most are probably right. But arguin the same point for everything I say is not impressive. Sandin is better then Marincin. Playing him isnt stunting his growth. IF putting a player in a bad situation mattered to development... it really hurt McDavid... it really hurt Rielly... it really hurt Brady Tkachuck... it really hurt Carter Hart... it really hurt Chabot... the list goes on.

Not getting Bogo at the deadline was 100% the right move. You bring him in and the team looks at it like being rewarded for bad play it could've easily gone worse. Bogo isn't helping the offensive side of the puck. He wouldn't of made a difference.

As for shooting% I didn't specify when they had it. It wasn't overy 5v5 it was over the entire series. But even if it was 5% that's not that much better either. Also taking 1 example over 5 game series is just nitpicking. I'm sure there's others like it because it's hockey and that's how the game is played. Like I said if you watch that series now and say it wasn't majority the goalies I don't think we're watching the same games.

I'm done though. Like I said no point in arguing this now.

If the team was only thinking about winning now they would've picked up Bogo at the deadline and play Sandin regularly. Yes 2013 was inexperienced yet a team that is like half of the age of the 2013 team. But sure. I thought we'd beat CBJ not crush them. And if you don't think it wasn't great goaltending I'm done. Leafs had a team shooting% of like 2 over the series. That's hilarious.[/quote]

Wow man. I would just probably stop or have stopped a long time ago @DJSums17, @Miles_Togo seems to be winning this argument. He’s been replying to each comment one by one and been picking them apart with examples, stats, proof and logic. You seem to be fighting a losing battle. Jump off the ship!![/quote]

Because you say more doesn't mean their points are right. There's no point in arguing with someone that won't see the other side. I'm not into talking to walls thanks.[/quote]

Lol. I think he was doing a good job of address each point or counter point!! But ya, it’s hard to even argue on Thai site.

If I write something that lomg. I can tell the other person didn’t even read the whole thing. I read everyones whole post if they tag me in it. But half the time, I’m just like I’m not writing this and arguing if I don’t feel like u are reading everything I write. I try to make them short. But if they come out longer. Like I said, I can tell, 75% of the people u are debating with, won’t read the whole thing. And I do, I read it all b4 I respond.[/quote]

Don't get me wrong I read all the points and some are right. Most are probably right. But arguin the same point for everything I say is not impressive. Sandin is better then Marincin. Playing him isnt stunting his growth. IF putting a player in a bad situation mattered to development... it really hurt McDavid... it really hurt Rielly... it really hurt Brady Tkachuck... it really hurt Carter Hart... it really hurt Chabot... the list goes on.

Not getting Bogo at the deadline was 100% the right move. You bring him in and the team looks at it like being rewarded for bad play it could've easily gone worse. Bogo isn't helping the offensive side of the puck. He wouldn't of made a difference.

As for shooting% I didn't specify when they had it. It wasn't overy 5v5 it was over the entire series. But even if it was 5% that's not that much better either. Also taking 1 example over 5 game series is just nitpicking. I'm sure there's others like it because it's hockey and that's how the game is played. Like I said if you watch that series now and say it wasn't majority the goalies I don't think we're watching the same games.

I'm done though. Like I said no point in arguing this now.[/quote]

Yep, I agree. U know it wasn’t me that u were arguing with though, right??

I am not sure if you are just being dishonest for the hell of it or simply completely clueless. 1) I am talking about the development of D. The development of forwards and goalies has nothing to do with it, although Dubas was talking about both forwards and D when he said that shuttling up and down to and from the minors when they are 18 - 21 years old was harmful and that prospects that age would only ever be brought into an NHL game by him when he was certain they would be full-time NHL players from that game onward. Again that is what Dubas said, but everyone who knows anything about development knows that as all the evidence supports it. People who deny this are either completely clueless of are trying to defend an undefendable position.

Playing on a bad team as McDavid and Brady Tkachuk did as young players is not a bad situation, and often a good situation as long as the team doesn't remain bad for a long time. You get to come into a low stakes environment, get lots of ice time and responsibility and grow with the team. That has nothing to do with anything I have ever talked about.

The current Norris trophy winner, Josi, came into the NHL at 21, full-time, had played 87 AHL games, but never played another one. They partnered him with physical vet Klein and within roughly 50 games he was top-pair with Weber. Hedman and Doughty both came into the NHL as top-4. In both cases their team acquired massive physical vets specifically to mentor them into the lineup (37 year old O'Donnell for Doughty and 33 year old Ohlund for Hedman). Keith played his first games with big, physical vet Cullimore. If teams understood that even world class prospects like them needed to be mentored by big, physical vets, and never brought in before they were ready to be full-time (which means both the player being ready and the team having the right environment - as they all did by ensuring the proper partner was there from day 1), then there is no excuse for the Leafs to be so idiotic. More recently Carlo and McAvoy were both brought in playing with Chara, Joki and Boqvist were partnered by Keith, Hughes with Tanev, Girard with Johnsson, Makar with Graves (not a vet, but massive), Heiskanen with Polak, Dahlin with Bogo, Chabot with Karlsson, and so on.

We know how most top-4 D are developed. They 1) are brought into the NHL as full-time D, they 2) in their first year or two (or longer) are played with a partner who is either a veteran D or a big, mean D, or both and they 3) either start in the NHL as top-4 D or move into the top-4 quickly (usually within 50 or so). That is not the case for every single top-4 D, but if you look at every top-4 D in the NHL you will see that easily 70% had at least two of the three (and almost always had #1 - which is no surprise as shuttling young D up and down is usually a complete career killer). Most of the outliers are D who were late developers (either late draft picks or undrafted players) who somehow succeeded in the slog or they were big, physical Ds who were considered to be projects when they were drafted. The evidence is all there. Dubas knows it. They did none of that with Sandin. Not because they didn't know better, but because they don't actually care about development. They did none of that with Liljegren. Not because they didn't know better, but because they don't actually care about development. They did that with Dermott - full-time on the Leafs' from day 1 and with an appropriate big, physical vet partner in Polak - until Dubas took over as GM and that all immediately went out the window as Dubas played 37-games of experience Dermott with zero games experience Oz and then never even attempted to test him in the top-4 until about 150 career games on the 3rd pairing (even bringing in Marincin to play in the top-4 when Muzzin was injured before finally giving Dermott his first shot).

They are a team that is very bad at D development - and that is not new. At least Rielly was also a full-time D from game 1, but it took them over a season to really let him move into the top-4 and the team passed him around through partner after partner before settling on Polak and then vet Hunwick during his early years. Not good, but not the disaster they are now. Sometimes when you are bad at development you get lucky and the odd player turns out anyway, but it rare.

You would know all this if you looked into it. But you haven't and you won't because you prefer to live in a fantasy land.



Bringing in Bogo last February would not have been a reward. It would have been a team with a couple D injuries getting an appropriate partner for a small 19-year-old rookie D with 20 games NHL experience who the team was playing with a small 20-year-old rookie D with a half-dozen games NHL experience. To not do that is extreme negligence and a clear sign that the team does not care about proper development. NHL teams that care about developing D routinely bring in vet partners to play with their young D prospects. The Leafs' don't and that is why they are so terrible at it.



You haven't re-watched the games. You have latched on to a complete lie because you find it comforting. The Leafs' sucked. Columbus goaltending was not great.

Shots from game 1

period 1 – Robertson, Mikheyev, Muzzin, Mik, Rielly, Ceci, Barrie, Matthews, Barrie, Rielly, Kerfoot
period 2 – Tavares, Muzzin, Kapanen, Nylander, Matthews, Kerfoot, Hyman, Matthews
period 3 – Muzzin, Matthews, Matthews, Barrie*, Tavares, Barrie, Holl, Mik, Barrie,
*this shot by Barrie was recorded as a shot by Matthews (who was nowhere even close to the puck). Not surprising as the recording of the data which is used for advanced stats has poor accuracy and is never corrected.

The shot by Robertson was ok. Matthews’ first shot in the second period was decent. There was no other shot on net that was even remotely dangerous. The best chance of the game was a high shot attempt by Matthews, but that wasn't a save (or a shot on net) and had nothing to do with the goaltender who wouldn't have saved it if it was on net - again - not great goaltending. There is a reason why almost half the shots came from D (even though there was almost never anyone in front for a rebound). The Leafs’ couldn’t (or wouldn’t) get anywhere close to a scoring position. If they did and managed to get a shot off like Hyman did in the second period it was while falling to his ass, but most of their shot attempts from in close were either deflected or blocked – great systems and D, not great goaltending. A number of the shots on net were going to miss the net. One of Matthews’ “shots” was a dump in from behind the red line. There was zero cycling by the Leafs. Just rushes in which they took weak shots from the outside and then the Jackets went back the other way. In the four years of the Matthews’ era this was the worst game for quality of shots. Advanced stats are useless. The team knew that it was destroyed this game. They knew that they had to completely change tactics and fight much harder to gain any sort of position because they were kept completely to the outside, and any shot attempt from in closer was poor. But they were unsuccessful in changing tactics and lost a series where they were clearly the inferior team.

Wow man. I would just probably stop or have stopped a long time ago @DJSums17, @Miles_Togo seems to be winning this argument. He’s been replying to each comment one by one and been picking them apart with examples, stats, proof and logic. You seem to be fighting a losing battle. Jump off the ship!![/quote]

Because you say more doesn't mean their points are right. There's no point in arguing with someone that won't see the other side. I'm not into talking to walls thanks.[/quote]

Lol. I think he was doing a good job of address each point or counter point!! But ya, it’s hard to even argue on Thai site.

If I write something that lomg. I can tell the other person didn’t even read the whole thing. I read everyones whole post if they tag me in it. But half the time, I’m just like I’m not writing this and arguing if I don’t feel like u are reading everything I write. I try to make them short. But if they come out longer. Like I said, I can tell, 75% of the people u are debating with, won’t read the whole thing. And I do, I read it all b4 I respond.[/quote]

Don't get me wrong I read all the points and some are right. Most are probably right. But arguin the same point for everything I say is not impressive. Sandin is better then Marincin. Playing him isnt stunting his growth. IF putting a player in a bad situation mattered to development... it really hurt McDavid... it really hurt Rielly... it really hurt Brady Tkachuck... it really hurt Carter Hart... it really hurt Chabot... the list goes on.

Not getting Bogo at the deadline was 100% the right move. You bring him in and the team looks at it like being rewarded for bad play it could've easily gone worse. Bogo isn't helping the offensive side of the puck. He wouldn't of made a difference.

As for shooting% I didn't specify when they had it. It wasn't overy 5v5 it was over the entire series. But even if it was 5% that's not that much better either. Also taking 1 example over 5 game series is just nitpicking. I'm sure there's others like it because it's hockey and that's how the game is played. Like I said if you watch that series now and say it wasn't majority the goalies I don't think we're watching the same games.

I'm done though. Like I said no point in arguing this now.[/quote]

Yep, I agree. U know it wasn’t me that u were arguing with though, right??[/quote]

Yes