Your reasons for wanting Robertson with Simmonds are the exact same as the reasons why Sandin should only be paired with Bogo. Sandin was targeted for abuse all the time last season and all of the Leafs out on the ice with him just figure skated around. That is in addition to the reality that Sandin should be brought into the lineup with someone who can actually mentor and that is definitely not Dermott - who should be properly mentored himself.

Regardless, Sandin won't be in the lineup (and will hopefully be traded to a team who develop him properly). And no matter what the lineup is Bogo will be in it.

What? 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Sandin's call up last year was a function of necessity- not a team rushing his development. Further, he did not look out of place at all. Given the construct of the blueline organizationally, he is a Marlie for the year with maybe a cup of coffee.

But the "develop properly" comment I think demomstrates you really don't realize how far the Leafs organization has come when it comes to "proper development". See Dermott, Johnsson (now a Devil but....), Kapanen (that was an impressive haul), Holl (more on him in another comment), Engvall, Nylander (who spent a year as a Marlie)........

The Leafs/Marlies under Keefe actually have coaches that do one in one training with players to develop specific skill sets. Read some articles.

Develop properly.....🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. That made my day.

@Penguins21

You have hit Holl prefectly on the head. He looked great with Muzzin in a shut down role, and even without him, looked quite competent. Why Leafs fans are hot and horny to move him is beyond me.

For the first time under the Shanny regime, the Leafs actually have considerable blueline depth - which last season was more than an issue. Reilly-Brodie (not a fan of the signing honestly); Muzzin- Holl; and Dermott- Bogo as the pairings look on paper to function very well. Beyond that there is Lehtonen (who has looked beastly in the KHL, Marancin, Rosen, Sandin and to a lesser extent for me Liligren. If injuries happen, the team WITH Holl looks to overcome that in a much better fashion than last year.

As for Robertson - I doubt he sticks with the team. The skill set is there yes. But loaning him to a Swiss club for a year I think could help him become top 6 ready. Think Matthews when he did it. Couple that with the array of signings on the bottom 6- for me specifically Vesey (a career 30-40 point guy with size)- suggests that the organization is committing itself to Roberston not being on this team for another year.

Now I could be wrong, but the amount of depth this team has in its bottom 6 would most definitely allow for sending Robertson abroad for a year.

Bogosian certainly cannot platoon on the 2nd pairing. he's 3rd pairing PK and 7 defender at most.

this is probably the worst Sandin take ive seen.

Good to know, I thought Dermott being a a good two-way defenseman would be a good pairing too. I know Liljegreen struggles abit defensively. But I thought Sandin, although I know he’s not super physical, was still solid as a two-way defender.

What gave you that impression?🤣🤣🤣🤣

Actually Liligren's defensive game has been pretty good. Still needs to work on skating a bit, and the offensive game that we thought was there may not be. When you think Liligren, think Hainsey (in his prime please!) - I think that would be a good comparable right now given his trajectory.

Ya, I agree man. Why trade a position where you were super weak last year..?? 27th in goals allowed. And I’ve seen Leafs fans on this site, saying just trade him for anything..lol.

Now if u can get a 2nd or 3rd, that might be a different story.

And now, having A nice depth at D, and acouple young guys on the wings, like you said. The leafs are still very shallow at Right-handed shot D. And that’s very important.

And Lehonen coming over from Russia, and the bigger Ice surface, it’s easier to play D on your weak side. Cause smaller Ice, on D, your forehand is always in the middle of the ice on your weak-side. And that’s obviously bad, and passing in the middle of the ice in your defensive zone. On bigger ice surface, it’s not as big of a deal. More room in the middle of the Ice. And they don’t have to use the boards as much on bigger ice, and on your weak side, you have to play everything back-handed off the boards and pass up the boards back-handed instead of just wristing it up the boards on your forehand, on your strong side. And keeping the puck in the offensive zone along the boards is on your back-hand too on your weak-side. Instead of the easy forehand against the boards on your strong-side. They don’t use the boards nearly as much as we do in america. They don’t have too on the bigger ice surface. It’s all about speed. More room. Not as much use for the boards. And as much as people say Lehtonen plays RHD as well as LHD. Well not so fast. It’s a different game in Russia playing on your weak-side.

I don’t agree so much on Vesey though. He was only a 30 point scorer once in his career. IMO opinion, Robertson is ready. In the play-offs and according to the taxi-squad reports last year, he was one of the best players out there. So I don’t think he’s gonna have a problem out shinning Vesey in training-camp.

Here is a future GM on player development:

I think that for us, it runs two-fold. We don't want our players going up to the Leafs before they're ready, and we don't want them shuttling up and down. We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY (his emphasis) when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time.

We don't want players going up and then coming down....it really rattles the players' confidence.

And I think that's on us, it's not on the players. We have to be the ones making sure we're doing what's right by the players."

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/orlando-solar-bears/2015/7/23/9019313/kyle-dubas-discusses-prospect-development-philosophy

And then Kyle Dubas did the exact opposite in every way when it comes to Sandin. He didn't do what was right for the player, and now he should do the right thing by trading him to a team that will develop him properly (ie every team except the Leafs). This is the same for almost every single first round pick who actually makes it to be a top-4 D. They are only brought up once they are ready to be in the NHL full time. Those who are shuttled up and down don't make it (with the rare exception for ones who are traded to a new team).

The best comparables for Sandin - a player who was brought up as a teenager for many games before they should have been and then spent most if not all of the following season in the AHL are: Connor Carrick, Sbisa and Mueller. None of them became close to top-4 Ds.

I understand that you are far too immersed in the Dubas cult to see anything but the Dubas cult, but that doesn't make it reality. The Leafs' have gone extremely far backwards in terms of proper development since Dubas took over. It was as far from a function of necessity to bring Sandin up last year - in fact in summer he specifically said that he acquired sufficient depth so that he could avoid bringing Sandin or Liljegren up (Harper, Schmaltz, Gravel along with Marincin and Kivi) and even if he didn't want to use any of them, picking up depth D at any point before the trade deadline is beyond easy. Dubas is not that incompetent that he can't figure out how to pick up a depth D.

except that all players are not identical. Do you really think that Dubas would go on and on about his prospect development strategy and then throw it out with the bathwater with one of his top prospects? Maybe, just maybe he knows Sandin a bit better than you do and this actually didnt harm him in the least?

Every team that successfully brings in talented young rookie Ds puts them with defensively solid vet partners. The Leafs don't and that is a reason why they are not successful.

At least Dermott got his start in 2017/18 playing half a season with Polak (who the next year mentored Heiskanen into the lineup) before the stupidly played him with zero games experience Oz the next year and stalled out Dermott's previously rapid development. Chicago partnered Joki and then Boqvist with Keith. Boston partnered Carlo and then McAvoy with Chara. The Avs partnered Girard with Johnson and then because they didn't have another vet they at least partnered Makar with the monster Graves. Vancouver partnered Hughes with Tanev. Buffalo partnered Dahlin with Bogo. Tampa partnered Sergachev with Stralman (and had previously brought in Ohlund to play with Hedman when the latter was a rookie).

Dermott is still learning the game himself. He should be getting challenged up the lineup (something the Leafs should have been doing back in 2018/19).

Sandin needs a partner who is an old vet, who knows everything and who can protect him (remember he was sent down in October after the Detroit game where he was targeted by Abdelkader and the 4 other Leafs on the ice didn't care. Bogo would have ripped the guys' head off and would have made it known that if you target Sandin then your teams' young players will be targeted even more). Instead the Leafs' partnered him with Barrie, Liljegren and Holl and, unlike Boqvist who improved leaps and bounds during his time in the NHL, Sandin became worse with pretty much each game he played until he was being healthy scratched at the end. That should never happen with a teenage D, but it does happen in teams that are extremely bad at development.

Oh boy.....

Sandin's development has been fine by every standard. Nylander played 30 games on call ups before he stuck. Did that hurt his development? I think not.

Maybe Dubas has a good beat on Sandin, ya know, since he drafted him in the Soo? And thus, is faimilar with how that organization develops talent?

I guess by your standard the Leafs habe already screwed up Robertson's deveopment too - since he played playoff games..

They definitely must have missed with Kapanen too. After all, they only got a 1st AND a grade B+ prospect from that screw up. They took a one dimensional player and turned him into a guy that can play 200 feet. And wair for it...... he shuffled up and down for two years.... to GAUGE that development on an NHL level perhaps? But that is crazy talk right?

And for the mic drop...... Leon Draisaitl. The guy that made the Oilers out if camp, but was then sent to junior..... yup. He turned out just terrible.

You're argument is full of flaws.

Feel free to add @JaredofLondon

I don't think so. I know so. Only completely blinded people can't see it. Management of under-performing teams do this kind of crap all the time.

No, he didn't. Nylander was called up for the first and only time on February 28th 2016. After the Leafs' season ended he went back to the Marlies for the Calder Cup run. That is completely different. He was a full-time Leaf from the second he first put on the jersey. You have no idea what you are talking about, which is no surprise.

I hope you are not comparing Sandin to those players..lol, JK. I agree. It definitely the right way to develop a player.

And yes, bringing them up and down is definitely bad. Especially a young player. Just in confidence alone. But young players(actually most all players) need a routine. And consistency. And need to be able to play out of slumps. I completely agree.

And I see people Put Sundin on here as a healthy stratch..lol. Ya, that’s smart. Let your top prospect be your 7th defender and sit in the press-box half the time. Or they have Robinson on the 4th line..lol. Same thing, ya, let’s give our top prospect 4th line minutes. And have him sit in the press box when you need to make that 4th line, your tough, shut-down D, line. Robertson isn’t coming up until there is a spot for him on atleast the 3rd line and 2nd unit PP. which I think he can easily out-shine Vesey in training camp. He was very good during the play-offs and from all accounts impressed everyone during practice when he was on the taxi-squad. But ya, bring a young prospect up and down and moving them around is horrible. They need consistency.

I am not. Maybe Boqvist and Girard if the Leafs had developed Sandin properly, but they did not. However, if teams ensure that they do it right for the best of the best, that makes it even more important to do it right with Sandin if you expect him to be a top-4. There are tons of first round pick Ds who were given NHL games at age 19 or 20 and then never amounted to anything.



Yes, players like Sandin and Robertson need to play consistently and need to be given stability within the organization. For Robertson that is either full-time in the NHL in the top-9, with PP time, or he plays somewhere else. For Sandin that is either full-time in the NHL lineup (with a path to the top-4 within a year at the most), or he plays somewhere else. Sandin has not played a game since March 10th (and had been getting scratched frequently in the previous couple weeks) - that is 7 and 1/2 months and counting. That wouldn't be a complete disaster if Sandin had been put in an offseason strength and mass gaining routine around the end of March as a major reason he was being scratched was because he was not big and strong enough. He could done so with complete certainty over his schedule and then having done that from March until August he could be playing games in the SHL right now. But instead he was told to stay in game shape for the playoffs - and then the team subsequently did not play him in either the exhibition game or any pre-season games. A complete waste of development opportunities by a team that continues to place the immediate and long-term interests of a young prospect dead last.

Or, maybe he's just developing a prospect in a way that isnt harming him at all.
Completely blinded people often fail to see it, they assume teams that have issues in one area are bad at all areas. Fans do this crap all the time

It is amazing how you put so much effort into writing this and just ignored what actually happened. You know, the leafs trying to compete for the cup and needing to ice the best lineup and him being up and down for injuries.
As far as not playing aince march 10th, if that's an indication of poor development then literally every gm in the NHL is bad at it

It is amazing how you put so much effort into writing this and just ignored what actually happened. You know, the leafs trying to compete for the cup and needing to ice the best lineup and him being up and down for injuries.
As far as not playing aince march 10th, if that's an indication of poor development then literally every gm in the NHL is bad at it[/quote]

I’ll agree with that. It’s very easy and understandable to write-off anything done last year!!

I’ll agree with that. It’s very easy and understandable to write-off anything done last year!![/quote]

I think he’s still staying though the best course of action would be to have them ply the whole season in the AHL and learn the Leafs system against lower level pros. And not getting throw-into a play-off hunt and play very important minutes. Especially if you arnt gonna LET them learn and play out of a slump or bad game.

They should have called up a player that is used to the up and down call-ups. It’s not something every player can do or should do. It’s like being a pinch -hitter or utility man in baseball. Not all players can move around b/ween 2nd and SS or SS and 3rd base or all OF positions. Not b/c they arnt athletic enough and can’t do it. They are MLB players. Of course they can. But some players are good at it and some aren’t. Some need those everyday at-bats. Or need that consistency of playing the same position in the field everyday to keep their routine and for them to be successful

His transaction history tells a different story.... since we are googling dates and all.

But you hang on to that with yout inability to explain Kapanen and Draisaitl.

Yes, read my last post. Some players can do and some can’t. Some players need that consistency to be successful

I think he’s still staying though the best course of action would be to have them ply the whole season in the AHL and learn the Leafs system against lower level pros. And not getting throw-into a play-off hunt and play very important minutes. Especially if you arnt gonna LET them learn and play out of a slump or bad game.

They should have called up a player that is used to the up and down call-ups. It’s not something every player can do or should do. It’s like being a pinch -hitter or utility man in baseball. Not all players can move around b/ween 2nd and SS or SS and 3rd base or all OF positions. Not b/c they arnt athletic enough and can’t do it. They are MLB players. Of course they can. But some players are good at it and some aren’t. Some need those everyday at-bats. Or need that consistency of playing the same position in the field everyday to keep their routine and for them to be successful.

But then again like u said, I’m sure Dubas knows his players better than any of us.

I am on board with you.

This guy is out to lunch. A 20 games sampling and he is spoiled🤣🤣🤣🤣

Some players can play ping pong until they stick. Others can play their way up the line up. Others you just want ready for an axpanded role.

His argument sounds like Ontario's education system whereby one size has to fit all lol