Almost fair for all value wise if say, upgrade the fourth to a third in Rangers deal.

The Oilers deal is what both teams need and both the same value.

The Carolina deal is close value wise leafs would have to send a prospect aswell but I still don't think Carolina does it because they have become thin on the right side and Pesce has more value to their team than rielly would have if he was in Carolina

Also I don't think Muzzin will get 6 mil at most 5.5 for 5

Oh my word Carolina laugh you away. From an analytical perspective, Pesce is one of the best DFDs in the league. For him AND a 1st, Rielly ain't it

Muzzin I basically agree but gave more money for less term.

I likely agree on Carolina but like the idea of trading Reilly for a defensive RD somewhere. And doing this triggers Carolina fans who think all of their players are elite.

Agreed I like the idea of it Pesce is slightly overrated but so is Rielly (as much as I love him)

Pesce analytically is one of the best D men in the NHL, at either end. He plays second fiddle to Dougie so he so often gets underrated by other fans. Carolina reject this any day that ends with Y

And the Rielly anti hype train is rolling big time. What a joke.

It should trigger every Leaf fan alive. Getting a late round pick and a player, who up until recently, was the most overrated on this site is an insult to Rielly. The guy finished 5th in Norris voting last year. Rielly is an elite #1 defenceman Pesce is a top 4 defensive defenceman these are not close to equal and a later first round pick doesn't make up the distance. This site is ridiculous.

Wow

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if you guys believe that Pesce is worth more than Matthews and Marner combined. I bet Slavin is worth McDavid then.

No. I wouldn't be surprised if you guys thought Kapanen lands you Crosby though. The atsts back up what we say, what's your excuse?

I have never said anything remotely as insane as that. But thinking that Pesce is better than Rielly is something that has been suggested in this thread by yourself.

Rielly is the most overrated defenseman in the NHL from the aspect that he doesn't play defense. In the past 3 years, no D man has been on the ice for more goals against than Morgan Rielly. Pesce is amongst the lowest of D men that have played more than 3000 minutes over the past 3 years. Rielly has not even been doing the scoring this year to prove his value. Pesce has the 2nd best xGA among D men in the league this year. Stats back up what I say, stats don't lie.

As I have said before, if, and it's a big IF, the Leafs move one of their top players, the return would have been extremely appealing. I think the Canes would need to include of their top prospects as well to get the Leafs on the phone. As for the Oilers, if they wanted Kapanen, I imagine that would cost them Nurse.

Its a system thing and also here are the partners that Pesce has got to play with.

Slavin, Gardiner, De Haan. All good to elite players. Rielly? Matt Hunwick, Nikita Zaitsev, Ron Hainsey, Cody Ceci and for a little while Barrie. Guess how many of those guys are good? Just Barrie. Also TO as a team hasn't been very good at defending, 1 player doesn't change that, this isn't basketball, you need a full team commitment to defending. You guys that like to talk all sorts of trash but have zero idea how the game works are so annoying. As the game gets faster and more skilled, the only way to defend successfully as a full 5 man unit. Something Carolina has often done well, but something a young Toronto team still needs to get better at. Although their goals against under Keefe has been better than it was under Babs but again, that hurts the rhetoric that TO can't defend so lets just ignore that.

Learn to play hockey and then watch player rotations in the offensive zone, then watch to see how when TO gets scored on, its generally one of two issues.

Either, the forwards don't rotate to the slot fast enough leaving someone wide open, or the Leafs turn the puck over in the offensive zone and give up an odd man rush.

That isn't 1 defencemans fault like goofs like you seem to think, its a systematic breakdown that needs to be corrected. You'll learn eventually.

Keep Pesce and all your other super elite defenceman that are worth more than the rest of the league combined.

According to the people on here, the Leafs need to move their top players to get anything. "Carolina wouldn't do Pesce for Rielly straight up!" Yeah okay, and Josh Anderson is a 30 goal scorer, he just needs a few games to get back on track for that pace.

I agree about Reilly. Just too many defensive deficiencies for my liking.

I mean, it's a fact that Josh Anderson is a 30-goal scorer. He's not a consistent scorer, at least not this season, but I mean that's not untrue. It takes something to get something, but deals happen (and I wish they happened more often - damn cap) because teams that are making the deal fit together or some times are in a compete mode while others are in tank. Carolina and Toronto are both gunning for the same thing, and may end up fighting over a wild card spot. I am not sure if they make another deal until after the season is over.

In fact, Anderson is not a 30 goal scorer. He scored 27 last year and has 1 this year.

And according to people on here "it takes something to get something" means Leafs have to pay triple what anyone else would just because they are the Leafs. Its ridiculous. Anyone who is actually comparable to Rielly, would get an absolute massive return, but since Rielly is a TO player, he is worth a 2nd pair defensive defenceman and TO has to add. Its a joke. Nylander is worth a 2nd liner, Matthews is just a 2C. It goes on and on. Its just ridiculous.

Damn. Okay then. 27-goal scorer. Between fans and the media, you will be hard-pressed to find true value unless you are actually in the industry.

Or are an objective person with a wealth of hockey knowledge, understand how the game is played and also can look at trends moving forward. In which case, its not hard to have an idea of how players are rated. On this site, the bias against the Leafs is just silly. Sure there are some bias Leaf fans on here, no doubt, every fan base has homers. However, the sheer number of leaf haters or anti leaf sentiment is larger. For perfect example, anyone thinking Rielly, who finished 5th in Norris voting last year, is anywhere close to the same value as Brett Pesce, is totally insane. Its the same as saying Matthews is worth Max Domi and a 1st.

It doesn't matter what you say on here, there will always be complaining. First, because I don't think you can be completely objective here. Second, a wealth of hockey knowledge doesn't necessarily translate into proposing "fair and reasonable" deals. I think that as long as you stick to your guns, opinion and are respectful to others opinions and comments, you can at least persuade people to at least to give some thought to your point of view.

RAPM takes that into account, that doesn't affect the numbers. Pesce actually played most of his tie on his offside with Justin Faulk. Having a superior xGA_60 to literally EVERY OTHER D MAN minus Nicklas Hjalmersson... although Hjalmeersson's offensive stats are worse than Pesce's... dramatically..... You also seem to forget, where was Hainsey before he went to Pittsburgh to win cups? CAROLINA! Sorry that these Analytics that your GM was hired to use, you're not fully understanding how they work. I guess that explains why you don't know your own franchise.

Go suck Rielly off elsewhere, because strictly from an analytical point of view, he does not hold a flame to Brett Pesce. Go figure out how Toronto are gonna trade Johnsson for Georgiev or some sh*t

Oh and FTR, he's playing with Gardiner right now, ONE OF RIELLY'S FORMER PARTNERS!

Sometimes, but I also find that I personally take a lot of grief on here when I say stuff like Brett Pesce isn't remotely close to as valuable as Morgan Rielly and people say I'm a ridiculous homer and Rielly sucks.

Go post a trade for Seth Jones and you will immediately be told be many fans of teams other than TO that it starts with Matthews or Marner. Manson is apparently going to cost the Leafs Liljegren, Kapanen and a first, despite 1 year ago yesterday I believe, Muzzin was taken for much less and he's better than Manson. Disagree and you are just a "silly Leafs fan". Its really annoying. The worst part is many Leaf fans seem to be getting influenced by this mob and actually believe that Rielly sucks at everything expect putting up points. Or that Kapanen is worth the same as a back up with a GAA above 3.

You are a perfect example of how stupid people are on here. Cherry picking stats to support your homer mentality and then insulting people when they disagree. Then you'll personally attack someone for being "homer Leaf fan" by saying go post another trade that heavily favours TO. I don't even post trades on here because people like you make it impossible to post anything without being branded a homer.

Matthews for TVR and a 2nd and you'll say TVR has more upside and some stat that doesn't matter means Matthews is overrated.

Check your facts dude, Gardiner and Rielly did not play much at all together. When they did, their underlying numbers were nuts but Babs wouldn't play them together. What a surprise that you just blurt something out with out any factual evidence to support your false argument.