Pesce is a 2nd pair defenceman who can be a pretty good partner for a true #1 and kill penalties, so he isn't without value. Liljegren's ceiling is a #1 defenceman (not saying he'll reach that but its his highest expectation), Nylander is the best player in the trade by a wide margin, Ferland is a bottom 6 winger who can score goals on a higher skilled line (which is again not without value but he's not worth his weight in gold, and Mrazek sucks.

So to recap.

Pesce <<<< Nylander
Ferland < Liljegren
Mrazek < 2nd

This trade is crap.

I would give you five stars if I could. This is awesome and I think really helps out both teams. Very fair, well done.

Carolina:
Nylander
2nd

Toronto:
Pesce
Ferland
Mrazek

First of all, why? Nylander is a top line player. I know he's had his struggles so far this season but give him time, he's a deadly player. He could very possibly become the best player on Carolina, he was right there with Aho, Marner etc before he held out. Everyone has forgotten that, or they ignore it to justify terrible trades.

Pesce is the most overrated player in the league right now. He's a 20 point defensive defenceman, which is a great thing but its not worth a top line offensive forward. Even if you want to use the arguement that Nylander is 5th or 6th on TO's depth chart, that doesn't lower his value, it just shows how sick the Leafs offensive depth is.

Ferland is a fine player but he's a product of who he plays with, on his own he's a bottom 6 player who is physical and can chip in with some offense from time to time.

I think Ferland would be a good pick up but I wouldn't pay more than a 3rd for him. He's a rental, apparently he wants a Tom Wilson contract. No thanks.

The idea of this trade is a playoff push and nothing else. I remember who Nylander is better than most. But no Nylander in the history of his playing has been snake bit this bad. At some point you need to focus on next year and the year after that. Will Nylander help the leafs win a cup? I dont know. I remember him being almost not noticeable the last two series against Boston. What would not go unnoticed would be a shutdown guy to play with Gardiner and a tough guy that can give Toronto space and an edge in a series against Boston. It is also REALLY hard to ignore that Sparks and Hutchinson just arent good enough.

Adding three players and sending out one player --> Two other players will have to be waived or traded (Marincin? Holl? Sparks?) to make room
Also Nylander will not be going anywhere until the summer after his large singing bonus is paid on July 1. And also most likely not until after they know Marner and Matthews cap hits are going to be
But sending Nylander 7 mil for a defense 4-5mil will give more room for signing everyone else

I completely disagree, Nylander actually looked not too bad in the playoffs last year. He did finish with a goal and 3 assists, he also was much better once he was moved away from Matthews. Him being snake bitten has far more to do with him missing training camp and a third of the season and then trying to keep up to guy sin mid season form. Pesce would play on the top pair with Rielly and he would be a huge upgrade over Hainsey but he's not a saviour and he doesn't win you a cup. He just makes it easier for Rielly to do what he does and you see less "God dammit Hainsey, just retire!" moments.

Ferland is less valuable than Hyman but has better hands. He doesn't win you a cup either. All this is just people buying into old school hockey thinking, media speculation and the mob mentality. Everyone is saying the leafs need tough guys to deal with Boston. That is wrong, they need to rise above the physical play. They have more talent than Boston and they need to be determined enough to take the hit, out skate the next hit and tire out Boston. That is step 1, play a full 60 minutes regularly with 100% effort. Do that and then you'll know exactly how good the team is. Overpaying to fix issues that we don't really know if its a huge problem or not is poor asset management.

Nylander isn't getting traded, especially with everyone in the world trying to treat him like a 2nd or 3rd liner worth a late 1st and a B prospect. He's absolutely a top line winger.

But if that were all true, than why does Boston own us.

They don't.

They beat us in 7 games several years ago, yes that was an epic let down and a total late game collapse (I blame Carlyle for that, who thinks its a smart idea to play Phaneuf for over half a 3rd period). They lost last year in 7 games to a superior team. Boston was the 4th best team in the NHL last year, TO was 7th. They were the under dogs and there is no shame in losing to Boston last year.

This regular season has been a bit of a let down against Boston.

Game 1 the Leafs dominated the 1st period and Halak stole the game.
Game 2 the Leafs won handily
Game 3 they totally mailed it in the whole game and lost big.
Game 4 could have gone either way, two very good teams playing great hockey. It was a really good game to watch. A bounce one way or another and the game is a 4-2 win for TO.

So no Boston doesn't own us. Personally, I think they are the perfect opponent for the Leafs in the first round. Get the skeletons out of the closet immediately, and that emotional baggage being expelled could lead to a big run.

You and I and others had this debate in the offseason and during the hold out. The stronger argument then seems to be playing out now. Nylander's point production is more a product of playing with Matthews not a product based entirely on his own skill and he IS NOT Marner despite some people including you at that time arguing he is as good as Marner. Take away Matthews from him and Nylander is a less then 50 point player. That's still good but not Marner and not necessarily a 1st liner. I agree he is a bit snake bit right now, but I'm betting by the end of the season, the Leafs will regret not trading him during the holdout for max value then. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Hindsight is 20/20 but you are taking small segments of the hindsight and bending it to your will. Since he's come back, the Leafs have seen a big uptick in transitional offence, and possession when he's been on the ice. He's supposed to be scoring a lot more points but has had horrendous puck luck since his return. I am not saying he is as good as Marner, what I argued is that before his hold out, many people had him higher than Marner, since then Marner has completely taken off and has been dominant. Is Nylander that good? I don't know, he hasn't reached that level yet but what he is, is a top line player who drives possession scoring chances and makes those around him better. Its just a matter of time before he goes on a tear and then people will stop this non sense.

Also, lets be honest here. Anyone who is using this arguement that he isn't a good player but still trades for him is completely full of crap.

Player A is definitely not a top end talent, he's at best a 50 point player because of who he played with, he's trash and is worthless.

Also can I please have Player A, he will be our top line RW and score a point a game I hope.

Its a nonsensical argument that is completely transparent. If someone actually thinks he's a 3rd liner on his own, they wouldn't trade for him because no 3rd line winger is worth 7 million a season.

I don't you're understanding me.

I DO NOT think he's a 3rd liner but he's not going to carry a 1st line on the best NHL top lines right now which TOR has he's a product of someone carrying the line. What's concerning now, and you'd be hard pressed not to be concerned, did Nylander not work in the offseason and during his hold out...if so, what does that say about his character? Question marks as such; #1, is there is lack of character or work ethic or maturity? #2 The best players, Matthews, Marner, Kane, etc. don't go on 20 game slumps...sure they go through spurts of a bad 5 to 10 games, but 20 games especially after everyone questioning whether he was a product of Matthews so far is concerning. Again, the best are producing day in and day out for the most part and Nylander is not. Nylander has a ton of talent, I won't argue that for a minute and won't argue he could be a first liner that is able to carry a line one day, but does a top team that's making a run at a cup now and in the next year or two and up against a cap crunch pay a big price to gamble with where he's at now or do they trade him for more seasoned players that fill obvious shortcomings in the current roster? For example, a 1st or 2nd line physical RHD guy? Or a mature reliable player like Wayne Simmonds who doesn't have the upside but delivers.

Nylander is a very good fit for the Hawks who are taking their leaders (Kane, Toews, Seabs, Keith) and grooming young talent (Cat, Jokiharju, Boqvist, Strome) to make another run in 2 to 3 years. Hawks need young guys with high ceilings that they can use their core to bring the best out of them over the next few years. Leafs need high level players now day and day out, they don't have time for 20 game slumps in their highest paid players or to gamble with whether Nylander was a product of his linemates.

Okay I am going to translate all of that.

You want Nylander because you see his talent and ceiling but hope you can get him for less, so you win the trade.

That is the logic behind all of these discussions. If you convince yourself that he's worth less than a top line forward, then you might be able to convince others of the same thing and drive his price down. He worked out like crazy over the summer but getting stronger and playing hockey at top speed are two very different things, it takes a while to get your legs under you and all your timing back and Nylander needed time to get it all together. Now he's just getting terrible luck.

Does playing with Matthews help his point totals? Of course it does, that is just stupid to not realize that, but could Nylander run his own line? Of course he can, he's a top level playmaker and it could be argued that he helps Matthews as much as Matthews helps him. Matthews has been snake bitten over the last while as well and having him play with Nylander and Hyman will let him find open spaces to shoot from while Nylander carries the puck around the zone drawing defenders to him. That is exactly what he has done for 2 seasons so far.

As for Nylander to Chicago, it'll never happen. The Hawks don't have the assets that are needed to get Nylander, well they do, but they won't want to move Jokiharju or Boqvist + for Nylander since those two are more valuable to a rebuilding team which Chicago really needs to commit to being.

That right there is pretty funny. Nobody on these boards sets the price for Nylander and while I enjoy the debates on here and ideas, by no means am I disillusioned between being a crowd pleaser in a virtual community and objective reality and I'm not interested in being a crowd pleaser in a virtual community versus just interested in intelligent discussions and debates as a fan.

Nylander has never proven he can carry a 1st line. He has proven he can play on a 1st line with one of the best players in the league. He is not Panarin as an example at this point. That is someone who everyone everyone questioned the same thing playing with Kane and he went on to show that he wasn't a product of Kane. In the same light, NOBODY suggested Panarin isn't a top 2 line player, but the question was is he an elite talent that can carry a 1st line or are his numbers inflated because of Kane. That is the exact same debate I had here with you and couple others. There is ZERO question whether nylander is a A- player and will do well playing alongside a A talent or A+ Elite talent, but does he have more to him when you take away Matthews? With Panarin the answer was obviously yes. With Saad the answer has been no. So far the answer is no with Nylander if this continues for the remainder of the season. Getting timing down and legs I understand to a degree, but much longer like this and that argument is weaker and weaker as each game goes by. As I said, a month of bad play is about all that is excusable if you are a so called A or A+ talent then one has to start questioning the work ethic, offseason program, and maturity. These guys are paid enormous amounts of money every game to produce, 20 games in a row of not coming close to earning their paycheck is worrisome at the least.

With that said, and seeing as the Leafs were playing really well without him and the emergence of Kap, do the Leafs consider moving him to fill in gaps in other places now like RHD versus hoping he comes around and reaches his ceiling in the next 12 months? That's why I suggested moving him during the hold out period and focus on this year and next year winning a cup.

Nylander for Boqvist is interesting from a Hawks point of view but from a Leafs point of view that doesn't help the now part I'm saying so wouldn't consider it as a Leafs guy. Nylander for a physical 2RD and other assets should be interesting to anyone on the Leafs side of the argument realizing the window is open now.

And for the record, I think if the Leafs can bring in a solid physical RHD guy (either 1st or 2nd line) they are one of only a few teams that go toe to toe with Tampa.

Panarin is also 5 years older than Nylander as well. The other issue that is completely ignored in these type of discussions is the age issue. A player hasn't peaked at 22, or I should the vast majority of players. Players generally have their best statistical year at the age of 24. If you look through 10 top players, almost all of them will have their best season stats wise around the age of 24, give or take a year.

So if that is the reality, then Nylander still has this season and next before he actually hits his prime and has his best season. I am certain this isn't lost on you or anyone else who wants to trade for Nylander. Its also why people keep driving home that Nylander plays with Matthews and that "he's only a 60 point winger". You all want him for the price of a 60 point secondary piece and hope he turns into a point a game player that you got for the price of a James Neal.

I know I have a bias for Nylander, he is my favourite player and because of that I am sure I overvalue him a little. (or more) But the whole arguement of Nylander isn't worth much because of all the BS reasons that are given (they are all based off either his short term struggles since, signing or because he plays with Matthews and that is why he is good), is a transparent arguement that can be summed up with "I want this player for cheap because I have convinced myself its a valid arguement"

Panarin is 4 years older but was 23 I believe when he was traded. I don't think that is accurate about having your best year at 24. I believe statistically you start seeing the higher end of their peak production for a forward around 24 to 26 generally but look at Kane. Age 30 and having his best year yet. Ovy is similar.

You are right to a degree, but the gamble is there no less. Panarin is what happens when it all works out, Saad is what happens when it doesn't. Doesn't mean Saad is a bad player but he was a A- player that the Hawks were betting would be a A or A+ player. That is the gamble and for the Leafs that are in the now window, not the 2 to 3 years from now window, that gamble is a risk when they have bigger holes to fill in order to swing the window wide open especially with Kap filling the shoes the way he's done for Nylander holding out and now not playing well.

He turned 24 at the start of his first season with Chicago. Which makes sense, he was at his physical peak when he arrived in North America and has been holding steady around that level. As for your remarks about how some older players are having big years, that is more to do with the goalie equipment and changes in how the game is being reffed and played. Its a speed game and the goalies look smaller, scoring is up across the board so of course the top end players are going to see an uptick as well. I think you'll still see most players hit their best years around 24 though. Look at McKinnon, it just clicked for him and now he's one of the best players in the world. And he is 23.

As for the Leafs being in a now window, I completely disagree. They are in the "contend now and for the next 8 years at least window." and because of that, they don't need to rush things. Don't take 3 years off that window because the media freaks out about everything.

My take on the Leafs is before they make any trades they really need to know what kind of team they have. Already they know its near the top of the league but they have been fully healthy for 2 games total this year, one of their top players is just now looking like he is up to speed (Nylander has been really dangerous for the past few games but really unlucky) and they still struggle at putting forward a full 60 minutes.

Until they are healthy and figure out how to get the level of consistency they need to be successful, they don't really know how good or bad this team is. I will say that there has been many games this year where the Leafs were utterly dominant. Line after Line just rolled over teams and they couldn't be stopped. Tampa plays like that almost every night, and TO absolutely can skate and play with them, but until they are also doing that game and game out, they aren't ready to jump all in.

All good points. I was thinking Panarin just turned 26 not 27. Not sure I agree TOR shouldn't be in the now entirely and worry about about 3 to 4 years down the line after they have a cup in hand. For a team in such a cup drought, I think management needs to focus on the now. Boston, Chicago, LA all did that and managed successful years but always focused on the now. A solid lockdown physical RHD 1st liner or 2nd liner and maybe a more physical 4th liner and a better back up goalie option and this team can go toe to toe with any team in a series, albeit Tampa being the measuring stick.

They can already go toe to toe with anyone when they are at their best. I'd love to see a better partner for Rielly but only if the cost isn't too much which currently it absolutely is.

And that's the rub of teams that don't win cups. You have to be willing to go all in with the cap era, and that means losing core members. Look at the Hawks, LA, Bos and Pit, they all paid the price to win not only once but multiple times giving up core players.

Thats all old bones man. It's the speed era now, things are changing from when the Hawks won.

So because it's a speed era now, you are saying teams don't have to go all in when they have a chance to win a cup? I don't get your response.

They own us, because we haven't beat them. Plain and simple.

That is all dinosaur bones man. It's the past, we need to move forward.