Jets accept

WAYYYYY too much for Hellebuyck. Like insanely too much.

I think that trade would be disastrous for us

and poink tho

what part? Pionk of Hellabuck

So a fair trade (based on precedent) would be a low 1st, a backup goalie and a low pick for Hellebuyck and a mid pick.

That would be 24 1st, DeSmith and a 7th for Hellebuyck and a 5th. You have Granlund and Rutta on here as, what I'm assuming are, cap dumps. If that is the case, a 3rd rounder would be sufficient since they are not bad players, just overpaid.

That leaves Pionk for 14 overall and Ty Smith. Now Pionk is fine. He shoots well. He hits. He blocks shots. But, he was the worse defenseman on Win for the last 2 years (3 if you remove the terrible Forbort) at preventing goals against 5v5. He also hasn't had a Corsi of >50% in his career. All of that is before taking into account he makes nearly 6MM.

All in all, he probably isn't worth Smith straight up.

So if you wanted to do this deal again, it would be:
2024 1st + Granlund + Rutta + 2024 3rd + DeSmith + 2023 7th for Hellebuyck and a 2023 5th.

If you wanted to involve Pionk, it would probably be for Petry and a 5th.



Is that about what you were thinking too?

Giving up two 1sts. We cannot afford it given how close we are to a rebuild and how bad our prospect pool is

That Pionk salary desperately needs to be spent on bottom 6 forwards. The 3rd line/bottom 6 was the worst part of the team last year. This might be even worse. We need improvement there.

I guess yea but I am the type that is ok finishing dead last for a couple years when sid retires. He deserves everything until he retires but I get why some people won't want to give up to first.

I would also be ok giving up Pickering so we have a first to trade later

No way they take Petry they are in cap hell too.

And I have heard people saying that Hellubuck will cost two firsts.

I was thinking two first for Hellubuck and everything else for Poink

Look at the bottom 6 I created though, It solid as hell

I am looking - that's exactly why I said Pionk's salary desperately needs to be spent on a bottom 6 forward lol

I guess it all comes down to how Poulin and Nylander play, I have big expectations from Nylander, Poulin not so much. But Kampf is a great addition and that 4th line is a perfect 4th line.

I get that its probably risky to put that much faith in two guys who have not yet had NHL success no matter how good their AHL season would.

That said I would rather this D core with this bottom 6 than last years D core with a better bottom 6, people are forgetting how bad our D core was last year

Has there ever been a goalie traded for that much? Ryan Miller was less. Dominic Hasek was less. Ben Bishop was less.

Sorry but I don't think anyone pays 2 firsts for a rental goalie who is nearly 30.

Goalie markets have never been this high tough. That is just what have heard media members with good reputation predict he'll cost two firsts and maybe more.

I'll make another one where he's cheaper

I mean you / they could be right. I would just be shocked based on precedent.

I hope he is cheaper lol, just not what I have heard

So here's my thoughts - don't take these too harshly lol. Nylander is a top 6 or bust type player. Like Kapanen. He's not going to do anything on the 3rd line. Poulin hasn't even been good in the AHL level and has serious mental issues. The 4th line is fine but the 3rd line is horrible. The bottom 6, specifically the 3rd line, was the Pens biggest issue by a mile last season. You did nothing to improve it - it might actually be worse. Kampf is fine but he's a dime a dozen - he's just a standard 25 point, plus defender. Nothing special. You can't have a guy making 6mil on the 3rd pair when you have a glaring weakness on the roster. That's all I'm trying to say. That money desperately needs to spent on the 3rd line.

Our d core wasn't bad last year by the way. So it's hard to forget something that never happened. Basically I'm just saying take Pionk's wasted salary and spend it on the 3rd line and your team improves dramatically.

Our D core was quite bad in transition.... wayyyy too many 2 on 1s. Could be the system.

Poulin had a great first half of the year before his problems but you are right about the mental health stuff. Prehaps Pustenen makes it over Poulin, either way I see your weakness on that 3rd line left wing spot.

Switching Nylander with Rust could also work, Rust has that Gritty Defensive game that you want in a 3rd line guy and Barbeshev provides enough D that we don't need him up there like we do if it is Zucker.

This was just an idea, my ideal look would include a cheaper option for 3rd pairing right D, and trying everything possible to get Nylander playing with Zucker and good 2 way center (Kamf is perfect here) I think Zucker and Nylander together would be lethal, both like to stretch the ice, Zucker likes to set up and Nylander can shoot, and its not like Zucker only sets up he can finish himself too so that allows fro a center to focus on D. I'm in the works of making that ideal capfriendly just still crunching some numbers

So to me - bad transition D and odd man rushes are mainly a forward issue in my opinion. I absolutely agree the rushes were an issue - but all those 3 on 2s and 4 on 2s and 2 on 1s I put mainly on the forwards - whether it be not back checking or not covering. I'm not saying the D are perfect or without blame - I just don't think they were awful or costing the team or anything like that. Didn't Poulin have 4 points in 15 games before he left. I wouldn't consider that great. And it's not like he was setting the world in fire the previous season either. Yeah - I would think Puustinen is definitely more prepared than Poulin at this current time.

I'm all for Nylander on the 2nd and Rust on the 3rd. I agree there. I have no issues there - and that's probably what I would do too. It's all good - sorry if it seems like I was ****ting on your idea haha. I was just giving my two cents on what I think would improve the roster. To me paying a guy 6mil to be on the 3rd pair just seems like a bit of a waste. I like Zucker/Malkin/Nylander. I think they looked good in their brief time together. It's not that I think Kampf is bad - he's a defensively responsible 3C. Which I agree is what we need. I just think you need to surround him with good wingers - the way they surrounded Bonino with Kessel and Hagelin. For example, if you drop Rust to the 3rd line and and then use Pionk's salary to sign a guy like Bunting or something - that would be an awesome third line. But Kampf with two AHLers just worries me a bit ya know

I did not think you were ****ting on me at all, most of our interactions on here have been quite present.

I would put a lot of the odd man rushes on the D pinching when they should not have, and sully being in a tighter leash will likely fix that.

I didn't realize Poulin's AHL numbers were actually bad, everyone I have talked too was saying we should have him with the big club and I assumed he was playing with Nylander so he would have had to have had great numbers if he was supporting Nylander, I guess I need to do more AHL research, I am not from Pennsylvania and don't have a hockey TV Subscription (although I have ran commentary for them so you would think they would give me one lol). so I do not get to watch the AHL team minus some high lights on Instagram. He was actually terrible. Maybe Pustenen would be a better option although I do not like playing two guys on the off wing and I like guys like Nylander who stretch the ice (on the receiving end) and shoot to play the off wing and he has played the off wing more.

So yea, Poink might be out of our price range unless we could off load Petry which I don't think we can do without paying and I don't want to do that because I think If you put him with a true defensive D man he can have success (remember how lethal him and Petterson were before he got hurt and Petterson got hurt as soon as he was back).

Idk if it was Sully or Reirdon who refused to play guys on the off D but if it was Reirdon and he gets fired than Rutta could pay on the left side with Letang and see if he bounces back given he has said he is more comfortable on the off D when he signed. I was honestly certain we signed him to play with Letang. and if that dosen't work we have cap to bring someone in. Although my issue there is is that we will miss the bus on Graves who is my number 1 target.

The other thing I said all year was that Malkin and Zucker could both make other players better than they make each other because they are both so good with the puck on their stick. Signing Barbeshev to play with either of them would deffently work really well. Plus I like the idea of Malkin playing with a Russian winger. Maybe something like barb, Malkin, Rust/Rackell (flip flop every time it goes stale like we have been doing) then Zucker, Kampf Nylander would work.

Or something like Bunting, Malkin, Rust/Rackel and Zucker, Barb, Nylander could work too. I don't hate Malkin and Pustenen either so long as Malkin doesn't play with Rackel at the same time as Pustenen (Again, I am a stonch 1 off wing guy, and thats coming from a guy who played the off wing most of his life albeit not a high level (I had the skill and IQ but had to remain to fat and slow to be a hockey player because my primary sport was football))

An idea I had last year was Carter with Crosby but that was before the season started and I saw that he had became a defensive liability. I do like the idea of Bunting because I think we can get more out of him than any other team. He probably lost himself 1.5 million with that suspension but IK he would not do that **** in Pittsburgh because of our leadership. So we could probably get really good value out of him for 3 to 4 mill.

If we could trade DOC for someone of equal talent and pay but who has more of a 4th line type of game that would also be a great move.

The thing that is really Handcuffing this team on the Back end is the fact that we have two right handed offensive D man in the top 4. A guy like POJ should be a cap messiah but we can't play him with Tanger or Petery because they are all too offensive. Maybe if we could trade Jospeh for a similar guy who is more defensive minded. If we could hack into Chel 2024 and change POJ's play type from Puck moving D man to Stay at home D man we have a perfect partner for Letang lol. I tried a trade we Upgrade JBD to POJ for Ottawa and throw in 3rd in exchange for them taking on Rutta but their fans didn't want to acquire Peirre when they're trying to trade Mathieu

Okay good lol.

Yeah I mean they made mistakes for sure, not trying to say they didn't. I just think the majority of odd man rushes I saw still had both defensemen back. And even when they do pinch it is up to the forwards to rotate - that's what makes those good defensive teams so good. Obviously I have no stats to back this up or prove it lol.

Honestly I didn't know until recently either haha. For the same reason as you. People keep saying we need to bring up guys like Poulin because bringing up Sheary/Guentzel etc is what helped our cup runs - but Sheary/Guenztel were dominant in the AHL first before they were brought up. To be honest I haven't watched the AHL games either - so I'm just going by point totals. I know there's way more to hockey than point totals - so it's obviously not a perfect measure of how Poulin is playing. I think one of Nylander/Puustinen should be top 6 - the other as an extra forward.

Yeah Petry was fine - not worth paying to dump. Believe it or not the POJ/Petry pair was even better than the Pettersson/Petry pair. Pettersson most likely plays with Letang I would imagine now too. I think Rutta on the top pair off side is a recipe for disaster to be honest. I think they're fine as is on the left side but have no issues bringing in Graves a long as the 3rd line is addressed first.

Personally I'd try to have Nylander on the 2nd line to give you better depth on that 3rd - but either way is fine really and an obvious improvement over this year. I'll take your knowledge on the one off wing and side with you there haha. Bunting at 3-4 should be a no brainer - but I think he comes in more in the 4.5-5 range.

You don't think DOC has a 4th line game? I think he's a perfect fit there no?

I know I referenced this earlier but since you brought it up - POJ and Petry were actually great together. I think I remember seeing that trade - didn't know they had so much Joseph hatred haha

I think DOC is just too flashy, he's not terrible but I not ideal. I wouldn't trade him unless we got the same skill level with more size, basically trade speed for size to fit the 4th line.

As to POJ and Petery, I was thinking the same but Hunter Houdees made an interesting point when he was guest on another podcast that changed my mind a couple weeks ago. POJ and Letang worked really well at first too, but then stopped working after awhile, basically when you put Joseph with an Offensive guy he is aware that he needs to stay at home at first, then eventually just like anyone would he becomes complacent (U can't blame him its a huge theme in sports phycology, unless hockey is different as I said never played hockey at a high enough level to be paying for sports phycologists in Hockey specifically) but after you have success changing away from your natural game style u start to subconsciously go back to what you have done your entire carreer. Maybe this would be an exception but I can't see it. I think we just need to swallow that POJ will be a bottom pairing guy for a couple years and bring in Graves.

As to Bunting, I saw him there before the suspension but everyone else on here that I have seen has that brining his value down.

Damn I think you're the first person I've ever heard call him flashy haha. He is 6'3" 200 lbs don't forget - and throws the body around. Not sure you're going to get any bigger and also effective.

The issue with that assessment is that POJ and Letang were never really good together. And for that to be a viable argument it would have to happen more than once in my opinion.

POJ is already a 2nd pair guy - in his rookie season. So I disagree that he'll be a bottom pair guy for a few years.

I would be extremeley surprised if someone loses a million dollars worth of value because of one hit in the playoffs. But maybe that's just me.

The DOC was supposed to say "plays bigger", lol, sorry I was trying to hide the fact I was on capfriendly from my boss while I was sending that.

He is like Zahorna, he dosen't play to his size, he is deffently more coach able that Zhorn though, (as per Josh Yole who is normally pretty in the loop)

And I as well as many other people really like POJ and Letang the first couple weeks they played together after the first line shuffle of the season. I still would have preferred POJ over Dumi with Tanger the rest of the season.

I don't think it will be talent keeping POJ on the 3rd pairing, just game style, I hope your right that he can play an entire year with petery though. If so that would be the biggest cap messiah this team has received since Sid said "I'll take 8.7"