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Assuming JayBo cant come back

Créé par: Chopper02
Équipe: 2019-20 Blues de St-Louis
Date de création initiale: 13 févr. 2020
Publié: 13 févr. 2020
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
Description
Not sure what his actual value is worth, but thought of Eric Brewer some years back where he got a 3rd at the deadline.
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  1. Choix de 3e ronde en 2020 (STL)
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13 févr. 2020 à 23 h 26
#1
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It is quite known that Borowiecki has fallen in love with Ottawa. They won't be trading him.

https://twitter.com/tsn_wally/status/1228157000149880832

He is also hurt.
13 févr. 2020 à 23 h 29
#2
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Quoting: Wqrrior
It is quite known that Borowiecki has fallen in love with Ottawa. They won't be trading him.


He can always resign in the offseason. They wont trade him without his permission, but if he has the opportunity to play half a season and playoffs with a Cup contender then he might be willing.
13 févr. 2020 à 23 h 35
#3
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No thanks.
13 févr. 2020 à 23 h 42
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Quoting: mokumboi
No thanks.


He's a decent defensive defenseman who has added a little offense this year. Not to mention he also brings that edge Edmundson has which is useful in the playoffs. Could be what the Blues need short term.
13 févr. 2020 à 23 h 47
#5
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Quoting: Chopper02
He can always resign in the offseason. They wont trade him without his permission, but if he has the opportunity to play half a season and playoffs with a Cup contender then he might be willing.


His son was just born just a few days ago. He's not going to want to live in a hotel away from his new born for a few months if he's just going to sign in Ottawa anyway.

I don't think he's going anywhere.
mokumboi a aimé ceci.
13 févr. 2020 à 23 h 50
#6
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Quoting: Claesson4Norris
His son was just born just a few days ago. He's not going to want to live in a hotel away from his new born for a few months if he's just going to sign in Ottawa anyway.

I don't think he's going anywhere.


Probably not, but he'd be a good replacement if he did make himself available
13 févr. 2020 à 23 h 52
#7
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Quoting: Chopper02
He's a decent defensive defenseman who has added a little offense this year. Not to mention he also brings that edge Edmundson has which is useful in the playoffs. Could be what the Blues need short term.



Yeah, he's an okay D-man even if he's utterly wretched at zone exits. However, he's barely worth a 2020 3rd with term. As a rental, no dice. He's not even as solid at the back as Bortuzzo, and frankly I think Mikkola fits the totality of our needs better. I'd maybe give a 5th for him. Maybe.
14 févr. 2020 à 0 h 1
#8
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Quoting: Chopper02
Probably not, but he'd be a good replacement if he did make himself available


I think Ron Hainsey would be a better fit. More experience, and he's more accustomed to playing top 4 minutes. Plus he's won before, and he has the whole grizzled old prick thing, which every cup winner needs.
14 févr. 2020 à 0 h 15
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Modifié 14 févr. 2020 à 0 h 24
Quoting: mokumboi
Yeah, he's an okay D-man even if he's utterly wretched at zone exits. However, he's barely worth a 2020 3rd with term. As a rental, no dice. He's not even as solid at the back as Bortuzzo, and frankly I think Mikkola fits the totality of our needs better. I'd maybe give a 5th for him. Maybe.


I disagree about Borts. He's a decent number 6 but also not great at handling the puck. This is why he gets paired with Dunn. Bor will get paired with Parayko so he'll have to do less. I like Mikkola, but not sure he can handle the grind of the playoffs yet. He needs to fill out some more.
I do agree a 3rd is probably a little much. I had to up it to the rental price.
14 févr. 2020 à 0 h 19
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Quoting: Claesson4Norris
I think Ron Hainsey would be a better fit. More experience, and he's more accustomed to playing top 4 minutes. Plus he's won before, and he has the whole grizzled old prick thing, which every cup winner needs.


Not a real fan of Hainsey honestly. He's okay if he's not being used in a top 6 role. Plus the Blues are missing that toughness they had with Edmundson on the left side and Bor adds that element more than Hainsey does.
Plus, it would be nice to see him get a chance to win.
14 févr. 2020 à 0 h 26
#11
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Quoting: Chopper02
I disagree about Borts. He's a decent number 6 but also not great at handling the puck. This is why he gets paired with Dunn. Bor will get paired with Parayko so he'll have to do less.

I like Mikkola, but not sure he can handle the grind of the playoffs yet. He needs to fill out some more.

.



Check the zone exit stats, dude. Bortz is much better handling the puck than given credit for. By the numbers, he's better than the average NHL D-man.

Only one way to see Mikkola do it. smile
14 févr. 2020 à 0 h 49
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Quoting: mokumboi
Check the zone exit stats, dude. Bortz is much better handling the puck than given credit for. By the numbers, he's better than the average NHL D-man.

Only one way to see Mikkola do it. smile


I'm not an advanced stats guy. Just like plus/minus, much of those have as much to do with other players on their lines as much as their individual effort. If you ever look at many of those stats, Parayko is considered an "open door". So that's why I don't buy those.
But no, Borts isn't good at handling the puck. Again this is why he's paired with Dunn. Borts can dump the puck out which is all we need him to do really. But he's not going to stretch the ice or make a great play with his passes.
14 févr. 2020 à 1 h 21
#13
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Quoting: Chopper02
I'm not an advanced stats guy. Just like plus/minus, much of those have as much to do with other players on their lines as much as their individual effort. If you ever look at many of those stats, Parayko is considered an "open door". So that's why I don't buy those.
But no, Borts isn't good at handling the puck. Again this is why he's paired with Dunn. Borts can dump the puck out which is all we need him to do really. But he's not going to stretch the ice or make a great play with his passes.



Erm, zone ins and outs are entirely individual stats. There's no team effect there. And I didn't say he was the second coming of Orr back there. He is, however, very reliable with and moving the puck. As his stats show (he also only has 9 giveaways in about 440 TOI).

On the other hand, Boro is 3 percentile at zone exits among the entire NHL. THREE.
14 févr. 2020 à 7 h 47
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Quoting: mokumboi
Erm, zone ins and outs are entirely individual stats. There's no team effect there. And I didn't say he was the second coming of Orr back there. He is, however, very reliable with and moving the puck. As his stats show (he also only has 9 giveaways in about 440 TOI).

On the other hand, Boro is 3 percentile at zone exits among the entire NHL. THREE.


Again, this is why you pair him with someone else.
But this ignores my overall point in that even with advanced analytics, it doesnt actually measure how good a defensemen is. We can agree Boro is not great at moving the puck and I dont dispute that. But keep in mind turnovers aren't the only thing that determines whether or not a player is good at handling the puck. Hell Doughty, Burns, Karlsson, all great puck movers turn over the puck a lot, but no one would say they're bad at playing the puck.

The eye test is still the most important measure of a player's ability that sometimes the stats back up. Other times dont. What we are talking about with Boro is we're not talking about a great puck moving defenseman, but we're talking about having a good defender and Boro is a good defender. You pair him with a guy like Parayko, Parayko will be the only one carry the puck out or stretching the play. And keep in mind, according to many factors Parayko is considered an "open door" defensively when it comes to defensive zone entries based on the analytics especially last season. That's why I cant buy into the analytics
Heck on the Athletic not too long there was an article talking about how the Blues are in trouble because the analytics say so. In that same article that pointed to all the Blues faults there was other team was with them in each category. That team was the Bruins. So how important are those analytics? I think not as much as people think.
14 févr. 2020 à 11 h 38
#15
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Modifié 14 févr. 2020 à 12 h 2. Raison: Added the stuff about Parayko
Quoting: Chopper02
Again, this is why you pair him with someone else.
But this ignores my overall point in that even with advanced analytics, it doesnt actually measure how good a defensemen is. We can agree Boro is not great at moving the puck and I dont dispute that. But keep in mind turnovers aren't the only thing that determines whether or not a player is good at handling the puck. Hell Doughty, Burns, Karlsson, all great puck movers turn over the puck a lot, but no one would say they're bad at playing the puck.

The eye test is still the most important measure of a player's ability that sometimes the stats back up. Other times dont. What we are talking about with Boro is we're not talking about a great puck moving defenseman, but we're talking about having a good defender and Boro is a good defender. You pair him with a guy like Parayko, Parayko will be the only one carry the puck out or stretching the play. And keep in mind, according to many factors Parayko is considered an "open door" defensively when it comes to defensive zone entries based on the analytics especially last season. That's why I cant buy into the analytics
Heck on the Athletic not too long there was an article talking about how the Blues are in trouble because the analytics say so. In that same article that pointed to all the Blues faults there was other team was with them in each category. That team was the Bruins. So how important are those analytics? I think not as much as people think.


That article that you a referring to said both of those teams were punching above their weight. Both teams have since been on extended losing streaks- the Blues have won two games since the all-star break, and only one in regulation, and the Bruins earlier this season winning 1 of 9. I would say the advanced stats were dead on about those teams regressing.

Advanced stats are not the end all be all, but it's ridiculous to suggest that the eye test is the most important measure of a player's ability. If that was the case, guys like Mitch Marner and Alex Debrincat would never make the league, and those guys are both excellent. Carolina is built almost exclusively on advanced stats, and Carolina is great.

Boroweicki is a bottom pairing defenseman on a cup cotending team. Probably not even on a cup contending team, actually, but regardless we don't need a bottom pairing guy, we need a shutdown defenseman who can play twenty minutes a night in a top four role and Boroweicki is not that guy. I think the "eye test" would tell you that. Maybe Mikkola isn't either, but at least he's free.

I'm sorry, also, one player's zone entries don't line up with what the eye test says and suddenly that means you can't buy advanced stats? The advanced stats say Colton Parayko is exactly what he is when he plays- a defensively responsible player with limited offensive upside. The eye test says he's huge and can outskate everyone not named Connor McDavid and he doesn't shoot nearly enough. If anything Parayko should confirm that advanced stats are a useful predictor of behavior
14 févr. 2020 à 12 h 42
#16
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Quoting: TheEarthmaster
That article that you a referring to said both of those teams were punching above their weight. Both teams have since been on extended losing streaks- the Blues have won two games since the all-star break, and only one in regulation, and the Bruins earlier this season winning 1 of 9. I would say the advanced stats were dead on about those teams regressing.

Advanced stats are not the end all be all, but it's ridiculous to suggest that the eye test is the most important measure of a player's ability. If that was the case, guys like Mitch Marner and Alex Debrincat would never make the league, and those guys are both excellent. Carolina is built almost exclusively on advanced stats, and Carolina is great.

Boroweicki is a bottom pairing defenseman on a cup cotending team. Probably not even on a cup contending team, actually, but regardless we don't need a bottom pairing guy, we need a shutdown defenseman who can play twenty minutes a night in a top four role and Boroweicki is not that guy. I think the "eye test" would tell you that. Maybe Mikkola isn't either, but at least he's free.

I'm sorry, also, one player's zone entries don't line up with what the eye test says and suddenly that means you can't buy advanced stats? The advanced stats say Colton Parayko is exactly what he is when he plays- a defensively responsible player with limited offensive upside. The eye test says he's huge and can outskate everyone not named Connor McDavid and he doesn't shoot nearly enough. If anything Parayko should confirm that advanced stats are a useful predictor of behavior


In regards to the article, they highlighted teams like Tampa who are well above average on every chart but weren't doing so hot. Those charts dont prove anything because all it shows is that the Blues much like the Bruins dont take risks so therefore it's unsustainable. But, those models are the most sustainable as we've seen in the past. It's usually the high risk teams that have the biggest issues when it comes to long term success in the playoffs. Tampa is a perfect example

While Parayko is a great defender, based on several metrics he's not a great defender particularly off the rush which is nonsense. Parayko is one of the better ones, which the eye test shows just how good he is if you know what you're looking for. And I'm not sure which Marner or Debrincat you're watching, but without using metrics and only the eye test I can tell you they play a very sound and structured game. If you need advanced stats to tell you they're good, then that shows that you dont know what to look for in a player.

Now for Boro, I agree, he's probably not a top 4 defender. He is more of a Bortuzzo type of guy, but he's sound enough defensively where the Blues can employ him. Mikkola is free and looks really good. There's no doubt, and Boro is not my first choice. It was an idea that people dont like, and I dont blame people for not liking it.
14 févr. 2020 à 13 h 12
#17
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Quoting: TheEarthmaster
That article that you a referring to said both of those teams were punching above their weight. Both teams have since been on extended losing streaks- the Blues have won two games since the all-star break, and only one in regulation, and the Bruins earlier this season winning 1 of 9. I would say the advanced stats were dead on about those teams regressing.

Advanced stats are not the end all be all, but it's ridiculous to suggest that the eye test is the most important measure of a player's ability. If that was the case, guys like Mitch Marner and Alex Debrincat would never make the league, and those guys are both excellent. Carolina is built almost exclusively on advanced stats, and Carolina is great.

Boroweicki is a bottom pairing defenseman on a cup cotending team. Probably not even on a cup contending team, actually, but regardless we don't need a bottom pairing guy, we need a shutdown defenseman who can play twenty minutes a night in a top four role and Boroweicki is not that guy. I think the "eye test" would tell you that. Maybe Mikkola isn't either, but at least he's free.

I'm sorry, also, one player's zone entries don't line up with what the eye test says and suddenly that means you can't buy advanced stats? The advanced stats say Colton Parayko is exactly what he is when he plays- a defensively responsible player with limited offensive upside. The eye test says he's huge and can outskate everyone not named Connor McDavid and he doesn't shoot nearly enough. If anything Parayko should confirm that advanced stats are a useful predictor of behavior


The thing is that it really isn't just one player, there are many players who are better than what the stats say, and the reverse is just is true. I'm sure many do line up correctly, but in terms of judging a player solely by advanced stats, I dont like that.
Admittedly I am probably too dismissive of the new advanced stats to a fault, but others rely on them too much to a fault. So it's just a mixed bag.
 
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