so he got a fair value contract based on his play at the time. (also LD and RD are different markets in case you want to go back to gudbranson). So at that point, coming off that good season, he was worth 4.5 million.

Now, since he is playing worse, he is worth less than 4.5 million. Hope this helps

it doesn't work that way.

The way it works is, you need a defenseman, there is none so you pay the cost to acquire one.
AKA sellers market.

If Graves had 1 year on his deal sure. But teams aren't lining up to commit to 6 years of a struggling dman. They'd rather go after a rental for a very low cap hit or just wait and get a free agent

1st of all it's 5 more years. 2nd of all that all depends on the market now doesn't it.

Most defenseman are under RFA control to 27 years old. Anyone who has any talent at 27 is getting 4-8 years of term. And people who have 2nd pairing talent can expect a contract in the 4-4.5 mil range.
Everyone knows this. It's pretty standard.

Your options are you pay it and deal with it, or you don't get a defenseman. So why you think the term is an obstacle is a bit confusing.
He's 28 not 34, the wheels aren't off yet.

The contract isn't nearly as big of a problem as you think, in general it's pretty standard.
Even bad defensemen are getting 3-4 year deals.

The question isn't about the length or the average money.
It's does an average 2nd pairing defenseman return a 1st.
The answer to that is yes in this market.

The question is: will a team make themselves look like idiots for trading a 1st for an asset they could have had for free and who has since had a declining level of play.

And the answer to that is no.

This isn’t Chel where you can game the system by signing UFAs and then selling them for assets later.

Signing UFAs from other teams is generally a depreciating asset. Like a car.

If graves could have actually been sold down the line for a 1st, he wouldn’t be in Pittsburgh right now. Because if that was the real scenario, Jersey would have simply resigned him (at probably less than 4.5 million to stay), used him for a year, and then traded him when they needed the cap space. But that’s not how the NHL works.

1st actually there are teams who sign players to 1 year contracts and then trade them off at trade dead line for assets.
This has factually happened.

2nd you can always and are welcome to wait to the offseason and test the market and sign a defenseman.

But as I have said before. There is a lack of defensemen in the NHL.

Not everyone is going to land one, especially not one with size.

This happens every off season. Which is why teams trade draft picks for players.

If it didn't, no one would ever make a trade. They would simply wait to the offseason and sign what they need.
But it doesn't work that way now does it.
There are only so many players available and the quality of them isn't often what you want. Which is how we get back to Gudbrandson signed to 4x4 nd Jack Johnson still having a job.

So if you want an NHL level average 2nd pairing defenseman and you can't get one in the market the question remains.

Does a 2nd pairing average NHL defense man return a 1st....and again. In this market the answer is Yes it does.

or they would be like many other teams and have to pay to open cap space when others know they are in a crunch.
but more importantly they didn't HAVE the cap space to do that.

If Graves was that valuable he’d have gotten more as a UFA. If these other teams valued Graves that highly they’d have just signed him themselves.

Graves play this year has at minimum dropped his market value by 500k-1 million.

Any team willing to pay a 1st means they value graves at about 1 mill more than his current contract.

So 5.5 million now. Or 6+ mill this offseason.

If such team existed, they would have signed graves this offseason. Therefore by power of simple deduction, I can tell you that such team doesn’t exist.

There’s no buyer on graves. There’s Pittsburgh who needs cap space.

1 year deals with retention sure. The RETENTION is gaining assets.

The 1 year rental market is completely different from the market on guys with term.

Please give me examples of players who signed a long term UFA contract with a new team (not a hometown discount), played at a worse level, and then returned significant assets without retention.

NJD had the space to bring back graves this offseason if we wanted to.

You are correct in a sense, but not the sense you think. NJD didn’t have the space to pay a graves caliber player 4.5 mill for the next 6 years. We had space for 1 or 2 years. But since we live in the real world where you can’t just discard your UFA signings when you’re done with them for a 1st, we chose to not bring him back.

If we did live in this world that you claim. NJD would have simply brought graves back and traded him either this offseason or next offseason.

1st what part of the player gets to choose his contract don't you get. WOW you could offer him 1-2 years...guess what. A 28 year old player isn't going to sign 1-2 year and go on the open market instead.

2nd. Again. The market isn't set on the player. The average 2nd pairing defense is getting 4-4.5 mil. That is around the league. You keep saying "he could get more".
No he can't. Because the league isn't paying people to 5+ mil to play 2nd pairing.
How hard is that to understand?

You want to to talk about real world, you live in a phantasy land where you don't want to recognize the points I have made over and over again.

27 year old FA with any talent are getting term, and they are getting average pay for their position most likely unless they are really above average players.
That is what Graves got. Average pay and decent term. Maybe the difference between Pit and the next team was 1 year in contract length. But it is what it is.

You can't simply "bring Graves back" when you don't want to give him term or the average pay he gets on open market. Period.

It's not ALL ABOUT YOU!

You keep failing to recognize, average 2nd pairing defense man, in a trade market are going to return a 1st. This is just true.
Those who are above average are going to bring back more, even when there is no term. David Savard got a 1st and a 3rd on an expiring deal. In general Term is a good thing on a trade. No one wants to pay up a 1st and the asset is gone after. What would they have had to give up if Savard had a year or two on that contract, more than a 1st and 3rd.

So just stop the nonsense.
You keep ranting about how bad he is.....his stats don't say that. They say average D man 2nd pairing. Period.
That's the cost on the trade market.

I am aware the player gets to choose his contract. Which is why the devils couldn’t keep him. They wouldn’t have been able to afford the term graves wanted. And they knew that you can’t just say “oh we don’t want graves anymore” and trade him for a 1st like you seem to think Pittsburgh can.

If graves could be traded for a 1st at 4.5 million, NJD would have signed graves to that 4.5 million x 6 year deal and traded him down the line. Simple as that

You keep mentioning these “on an expiring deal” contracts. The rental market is completely different. That was also Savard retained down to just 1 million dollars. Do you plan on retaining graves down to 1 million dollars? Maybe in 5 years if graves is still playing at a 2nd pairing dman and you retain 50%, sure maybe you can get a 1st.

You seem to not understand the concept of the rental market and how it differs from the normal market

Savard was going to get a 1st retention or not. It's like taking a player back, it's just the cost of the deal at TDL on an expiring contract.
The 1st and the 3rd were simply the best offer they got on Savard. If teams don't make the cap work, they get no trade. It has always been that way. CBJ retained because they didn't take anyone back.
You seen to think rentals have more value than players with term...that's not true. Teams tend to pay more for term. Even on cap friendly trades that's true.

At no point did I say you can just willy nilly trade Graves. You clearly need a partner to trade him to in order to make it happen. That's not the point.
Nor is it the point that NJ could simply do that, they could not because teams have no leverage when they MUST move cap. You don't recognize that.

There are very few players you can just trade like that all across the league. But that doesn't mean players have less value.
There are standard values around the league. Both in salary and trade. Comparable if you would. The comparable for a 2nd pairing defenseman is a 1st.
You can point to many trades where that's the base price. Be it Muzzin, Savard, etc.. you can point a lot of them out.
Where a 1st pairing guy is going to return a whole lot more and a 3rd pairing guy might get you a 3rd or less. It's just the way it is.
Why is that so hard for you to accept. As long as you have leverage, aka not in a bad cap situation, you can control the value you get.
It's when you don't have any leverage that your value drops. There is nothing here to say the penguins have no leverage. Grave is not a "horrible" defenseman. No stats show that.
Nor is he vastly over paid for his role. He's just run of the mill. If a team wants him, that's the cost. They aren't pressed to move a guy they just signed. Have you any idea how bad that would look for other free agents considering coming to PIT. Yeah sign here and we'll trade you after 1 season......

So like Pittsburgh who desperately needs cap if they want to do anything about the dreadful bottom 6?

Muzzin got value bc he was worth MORE than his contract. Which is why he got a raise when he hit UFA.

Graves if he hit UFA Again would be getting less than 4.5 this time around

I don't agree on your assement of Graves. If he hit the market right now he'd be getting the same 4-4.5 mil per contract.
He is no better or worse than other players in that range.
You are simply making an assumption on what you think he'd get. There is no actual evidence that says that.
Also the penguins don't desperately need to move him for the bottom 6. If they did move him there would be no cap savings as they would have to go out and find another 2nd pair defenseman eating up 4-4.5 mil of cap space. As that is what the market puts them at. So there is no money for the bottom 6 coming from that.

These are just weak arguments. You don't like the player so you think he has no value.
Well the stats say he's really no worse than other guys in his spot. Hell gost got what 4.2 mil or something on his contract. His 5v5 advanced stats are almost identical.
This is simply what a 2nd pairing guy is, it's what they get paid, and that's all there is to it.
You just aren't going to find a 6'5 defenseman with 2nd pairing ability any cheaper, and not wanting term. Get over it.
He has value.