Forums/Armchair-GM

Return of the Staal

Créé par: doublem24
Date de création initiale: aoû 28, 2020
Publié: 28 aoû 2020 à 8 h 23
Équipe: 2020-21 Penguins de Pittsburgh
Explications
I don't know if this package is enough to get Staal from Carolina, but I see Murray's value as up to 2 - 2nd Round picks. So if Carolina doesn't want Murray, would 2 - 2nd Rounders in his place get the deal done? Maybe Poulin needs to be in there rather than POJ?

This is obviously an all in strategy to make two more runs at the cup until Malkin's contract expires. Also leaves about 5 million for signings the next year with Marino being the top priority.

This is probably just a pipe dream as I never wanted Staal to leave Pitt... roast me.
Signatures de joueurs autonomes
RFAANSCAP HIT
McCann, Jared22 500 000 $
Fleury, Haydn21 500 000 $
Jarry, Tristan22 500 000 $
Lafferty, Sam2725 000 $
Transactions
PIT
  1. Staal, Jordan
  2. Fleury, Haydn [Droits de RFA]
CAR
  1. Murray, Matt [Droits de RFA]
  2. Joseph, Pierre-Olivier
  3. Bjugstad, Nick (1 025 000 $ retained)
PIT
  1. 2021 6e round pick (OTT)
OTT
  1. Johnson, Jack (1 250 000 $ retained)
  2. 2020 3e round pick (PIT)
Transactions impliquant une retenue de salaire
  • Nick Bjugstad: 1 025 000 $ (50%)
  • Jack Johnson: 1 250 000 $ (108.7%)
  • Nick Bjugstad: 2 050 000 $ (50%)
ANNÉE DE REPÊCHAGERONDE 1RONDE 2RONDE 3RONDE 4RONDE 5RONDE 6RONDE 7
2020
PIT
PIT
PIT
2021
PIT
PIT
OTT
PIT
ANA
2022
PIT
PIT
PIT
PIT
PIT
PIT
PIT
TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS BONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
2281 500 000 $83 526 008 $0 $982 500 $-2 026 008 $
Ailier gaucheCentreAilier droit
PIT
Guentzel, Jake
6 000 000 $
AG, AD
UFA - 4
PIT
Crosby, Sidney
8 700 000 $
C
NMC
UFA - 5
PIT
Kapanen, Kasperi
3 200 000 $
AD
RFA - 2
PIT
Zucker, Jason
5 500 000 $
AG, AD
NTC
UFA - 3
PIT
Malkin, Evgeni
9 500 000 $
C
NMC
UFA - 2
PIT
Rust, Bryan
3 500 000 $
AD, AG
UFA - 2
PIT
McCann, Jared
2 500 000 $
AG, C
RFA - 2
CAR
Staal, Jordan
6 000 000 $
C, AG
NMC
UFA - 3
PIT
Hörnqvist, Patric
5 300 000 $
AD
NTC
UFA - 3
PIT
Aston-Reese, Zach
1 000 000 $
AG, AD
UFA - 1
PIT
Blueger, Teddy
750 000 $
C, AG
UFA - 1
PIT
Tanev, Brandon
3 500 000 $
AD, AG
NTC
UFA - 5
PIT
Lafferty, Sam
725 000 $
C, AG
UFA - 2
Défenseur gaucherDéfenseur droitierGardien de but
PIT
Dumoulin, Brian
4 100 000 $
DG
NTC
UFA - 3
PIT
Letang, Kris
7 250 000 $
DD
NMC NTC
UFA - 2
PIT
Jarry, Tristan
2 500 000 $
G
UFA - 3
PIT
Pettersson, Marcus
4 025 175 $
DG
UFA - 5
PIT
Marino, John
925 000 $
DD
UFA - 1
PIT
DeSmith, Casey
1 250 000 $
G
UFA - 2
Fleury, Haydn
1 500 000 $
DG/DD
RFA - 2
PIT
Ruhwedel, Chad
700 000 $
DD
UFA - 1
PIT
Lindgren, Jesper
775 833 $
DD
UFA - 1

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28 aoû 2020 à 8 h 32
#1
Miss the Thrashers
Rejoint: mai 2018
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Carolina have enough prospect D men to successfully ice a better AHL defence than the Maple Leafs can ice in the NHL. Bjugstad is very meh, Murray isn't exactly a great improvement on what Carolina have (Reimer was a wall this year)
doublem24 a aimé ceci.
28 aoû 2020 à 8 h 33
#2
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DoubleM24
Rejoint: oct 2016
Messages: 98
Mentions "j'aime": 32
Modifié 28 aoû 2020 à 8 h 40
What if the prospect was Poulin? He's the top player in Pitts pool.
28 aoû 2020 à 8 h 34
#3
Rejoint: jui 2019
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Not saying Murray has a lower upside, but based on last season, I have more confidence in both Peter Mrazek and James Reimer than I have in Murray.

Trading with Carolina is difficult right now. They have one of the deepest teams in the league and a lot of average players would just struggle to actually make the lineup
doublem24 a aimé ceci.
28 aoû 2020 à 8 h 35
#4
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DoubleM24
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Quoting: Gordon_Bombay
Not saying Murray has a lower upside, but based on last season, I have more confidence in both Peter Mrazek and James Reimer than I have in Murray.

Trading with Carolina is difficult right now. They have one of the deepest teams in the league and a lot of average players would just struggle to actually make the lineup


I agree on their depth. They also have great chemistry, would seem dumb to break it up. I just want Staal back...
28 aoû 2020 à 8 h 52
#5
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DoubleM24
Rejoint: oct 2016
Messages: 98
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Quoting: Caniac2000
Carolina have enough prospect D men to successfully ice a better AHL defence than the Maple Leafs can ice in the NHL. Bjugstad is very meh, Murray isn't exactly a great improvement on what Carolina have (Reimer was a wall this year)


Also, what's the climate like on Carolina's attachment to Staal? Do you guys see him as an integral piece? I know he's the captain, but I'm curious to know the fans feelings on him.
28 aoû 2020 à 8 h 53
#6
the better zuki
Rejoint: fév 2019
Messages: 9,365
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You can't have Blueger as the 4C, it needs to be someone with an NMC.
doublem24 a aimé ceci.
28 aoû 2020 à 9 h 07
#7
Rejoint: avr 2018
Messages: 5,351
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Staal, Fleury for Murray, Joseph, Bjugstad ($1M ret)

This is near troll level.

A few hours ago someone posted Staal, Reimer, Fleury for Murray, Bjugstad, Simon and it was a no from Pittsburgh. You removed Reimer, replaced Simon with Joseph (making it considerably worse for the Pens), and added $1M retention on Bjugstad. You took a bad trade for the Pens and made it much much worse. Joseph should not be anywhere near this trade. The retention is on the wrong side.

Rutherford wants to get younger.

Staal will be 32 next month. His offense is less than Bjugstad's (especially when considering time on ice). $6M
Fleury is basically Ruhwedel, only left handed.

Using the players that you put in:
Staal ($2M ret), Fleury for Murray, Bjugstad
Joseph is out, fully. This still isn't that great of a trade for Pittsburgh other than it solidifies the 3C.

Maybe even go with Trocheck instead of Staal.
28 aoû 2020 à 9 h 22
#8
Miss the Thrashers
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 9,757
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Quoting: doublem24
Also, what's the climate like on Carolina's attachment to Staal? Do you guys see him as an integral piece? I know he's the captain, but I'm curious to know the fans feelings on him.


He's the captain, premier shutdown center, and one of the best chance creators on the team. Carolina aren't gonna move him for cheap, and it would likely need to be more than this to consider it, although he 100% makes the Penguins capable with their top 3 lines. Your best chance isn't to include Bjugstad, because Bjugstad is effectively a cap dump, Carolina would need more value.
28 aoû 2020 à 10 h 15
#9
Rejoint: avr 2018
Messages: 5,351
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Quoting: Caniac2000
He's the captain, premier shutdown center, and one of the best chance creators on the team. Carolina aren't gonna move him for cheap, and it would likely need to be more than this to consider it, although he 100% makes the Penguins capable with their top 3 lines. Your best chance isn't to include Bjugstad, because Bjugstad is effectively a cap dump, Carolina would need more value.


Bjugstad is both more physical and more offensive (slightly) than Staal. If $4.1Mx1 28yo Bjugstad is a cap dump, what is $6Mx3 32yo Staal?
28 aoû 2020 à 10 h 24
#10
Rejoint: déc 2019
Messages: 300
Mentions "j'aime": 63
Quoting: doublem24
Also, what's the climate like on Carolina's attachment to Staal? Do you guys see him as an integral piece? I know he's the captain, but I'm curious to know the fans feelings on him.


It is pretty split as far as how fans feel about Staal. He is indeed a shutdown C who plays all the tough match-ups and is a great penalty killer as well. So some fans view him and his role as irreplaceable. The other side is that he gets a ton of ice time (because of match-ups against the other team's 1st line) but he doesn't produce any points. His offense has completely dried up and the puck seems to die on his stick. Some also question his leadership as a captain.

As far as I am concerned, if there is a way to move him, I am all for it. This package, however, does nothing for me. I'd be happy to trade him straight up for Hornqvist though.
28 aoû 2020 à 10 h 44
#11
It Is Umlaut Season
Rejoint: jun 2017
Messages: 572
Mentions "j'aime": 202
Sens decline. Retained, he brings zero benefit. The best and only thing he offers is that he can bring back a sweetener as a cap dump. If he's no longer a cap dump, he's just a bad player signed for too long. Why would they intentionally want a bad player on their roster? That's for JR to deal with.
28 aoû 2020 à 11 h 24
#12
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DoubleM24
Rejoint: oct 2016
Messages: 98
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Quoting: Claebom
Sens decline. Retained, he brings zero benefit. The best and only thing he offers is that he can bring back a sweetener as a cap dump. If he's no longer a cap dump, he's just a bad player signed for too long. Why would they intentionally want a bad player on their roster? That's for JR to deal with.


Fair point.

My perspective is that there are a few options for what can be done with JJ.

1. Nothing - sadly this seems like what will happen

2. Trade - nobody wants him, because he's terrible. If they trade him, they have to give up an asset and most likely retain salary. Of course the team who gets him isn't going to use him, he's terrible, but trades like this happen a lot. The asset that's given has to create the balance. The value of the asset can decrease with the less salary thats transferred (retention). So, the question is, how high does the asset value need to be? Seems like a 2nd or 3rd round pick is the only option Pitt has.

3. Buyout - highly unlikely, Pitt has never done this and it would be elongating the period of cap penalty. This is the main reason for trading him away with retention, you hold a penalty but its tenure is much shorter.

With all these options understood, I think a trade with retention is the best and only plan for how to handle JJ. Of course the team is he's going to isn't gonna value him, he's terrible, but if they have the ability to do it and gain an asset it's not completely pointless.
28 aoû 2020 à 11 h 32
#13
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DoubleM24
Rejoint: oct 2016
Messages: 98
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Quoting: Yojimbo
Staal, Fleury for Murray, Joseph, Bjugstad ($1M ret)

This is near troll level.

A few hours ago someone posted Staal, Reimer, Fleury for Murray, Bjugstad, Simon and it was a no from Pittsburgh. You removed Reimer, replaced Simon with Joseph (making it considerably worse for the Pens), and added $1M retention on Bjugstad. You took a bad trade for the Pens and made it much much worse. Joseph should not be anywhere near this trade. The retention is on the wrong side.

Rutherford wants to get younger.

Staal will be 32 next month. His offense is less than Bjugstad's (especially when considering time on ice). $6M
Fleury is basically Ruhwedel, only left handed.

Using the players that you put in:
Staal ($2M ret), Fleury for Murray, Bjugstad
Joseph is out, fully. This still isn't that great of a trade for Pittsburgh other than it solidifies the 3C.

Maybe even go with Trocheck instead of Staal.


This trade isn't that far off and yes, it was in reaction to the previous post about bringing Staal back.

I don't think suggesting it and asking questions for how it could work is trolling, but... ok.

Bringing in Staal at the end of his career isn't that far off base. I think he would shine in a 3rd line roll despite being pretty expensive. The best parts of Staal's game are defensive and he's masterful on the faceoff. Isn't that exactly what Pitt needs? A center who can establish possession, kills penalties and matches up against top lines so Crosby and Malkin can exploit mismatches?

The salary retention is for 1M and it's for one year, pretty straight forward. Pitt will have to move salary to bring him in and I don't think they have long term plans for Bjugstad. I agree that Staal's value is declining but 2M retained on their side is 6M total, so that seems very unrealistic to me.

Also, I'm all for removing the prospect, that'd be great for Pitt, but it seems like Carolina fans are saying Staal is worth more than you're giving him credit for and I agree.

Do you think this is realistic?

Staal for Murray and Bjugstad.

If not, do you think Carolina needs to retain salary? Send a pick back? I'd be interested to hear what Carolina fans think of that too.
28 aoû 2020 à 11 h 35
#14
Miss the Thrashers
Rejoint: mai 2018
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Quoting: Yojimbo
Bjugstad is both more physical and more offensive (slightly) than Staal. If $4.1Mx1 28yo Bjugstad is a cap dump, what is $6Mx3 32yo Staal?


Bjugstad is not more physical than the best defensive center in the Metro not named Sean Couturier (this is probably an exaggeration, but he's still DAMN good) and although Staal doesn't bring as much production, his game leads to a lot of chances. Someone like Kapanen on his wing would go absolutely nuts.
doublem24 a aimé ceci.
28 aoû 2020 à 11 h 39
#15
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DoubleM24
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Quoting: Caniac2000
Bjugstad is not more physical than the best defensive center in the Metro not named Sean Couturier (this is probably an exaggeration, but he's still DAMN good) and although Staal doesn't bring as much production, his game leads to a lot of chances. Someone like Kapanen on his wing would go absolutely nuts.


I completely agree, in fact, I don't think Bjugstadt is physical at all. You can't look at his height and weight and assume he plays a physical game. He's almost invisible at times. Granted I've only watch him in Pittsburgh but my main takeaways were, "I wish Bjugstad used his size to his advantage more".
28 aoû 2020 à 11 h 54
#16
Miss the Thrashers
Rejoint: mai 2018
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Quoting: doublem24
I completely agree, in fact, I don't think Bjugstadt is physical at all. You can't look at his height and weight and assume he plays a physical game. He's almost invisible at times. Granted I've only watch him in Pittsburgh but my main takeaways were, "I wish Bjugstad used his size to his advantage more".


Staal uses his body, and is just better in almost all aspects (they have equally stone chiselled hands) You're paying 2 mil more for a few more years, but it's worth it
28 aoû 2020 à 11 h 56
#17
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DoubleM24
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Quoting: Caniac2000
Staal uses his body, and is just better in almost all aspects (they have equally stone chiselled hands) You're paying 2 mil more for a few more years, but it's worth it


Agreed, I think he's a massive improvement and would be one of the best 3C's in the league if Pitt got him back.

Lastly, in response to another comment, I know JR has said Pitt is trying to get younger and Staal doesn't fit that idea, but the main goal is to win a cup and it looks like the next two years is the last chances to do that with this core. I think Staal increases their chances to do so.
28 aoû 2020 à 12 h 05
#18
Miss the Thrashers
Rejoint: mai 2018
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Quoting: doublem24
Agreed, I think he's a massive improvement and would be one of the best 3C's in the league if Pitt got him back.

Lastly, in response to another comment, I know JR has said Pitt is trying to get younger and Staal doesn't fit that idea, but the main goal is to win a cup and it looks like the next two years is the last chances to do that with this core. I think Staal increases their chances to do so.


Staal is already probably the best 3C in hockey. He is Carolina's 3C.
doublem24 a aimé ceci.
28 aoû 2020 à 12 h 46
#19
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DoubleM24
Rejoint: oct 2016
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Quoting: Caniac2000
Staal is already probably the best 3C in hockey. He is Carolina's 3C.


So what would it take to move him in this trade?
28 aoû 2020 à 12 h 50
#20
Miss the Thrashers
Rejoint: mai 2018
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Quoting: doublem24
So what would it take to move him in this trade?


The cap relief with pending Svechnikov and Hamilton extensions provides enough motive, so you just need to get the value right. I don't know what that would be because Staal's value is SO difficult to judge
doublem24 a aimé ceci.
28 aoû 2020 à 12 h 56
#21
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DoubleM24
Rejoint: oct 2016
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Quoting: Caniac2000
The cap relief with pending Svechnikov and Hamilton extensions provides enough motive, so you just need to get the value right. I don't know what that would be because Staal's value is SO difficult to judge


I know Murray isn't the absolute best option available but do you think that a package with him and Bjugstad makes sense?

Would give the Canes a capable player to put in the line up, another option in goal and the cap relief for the following to seasons with Staal off the books.
28 aoû 2020 à 13 h 35
#22
Miss the Thrashers
Rejoint: mai 2018
Messages: 9,757
Mentions "j'aime": 2,166
Quoting: doublem24
I know Murray isn't the absolute best option available but do you think that a package with him and Bjugstad makes sense?

Would give the Canes a capable player to put in the line up, another option in goal and the cap relief for the following to seasons with Staal off the books.


Issue with Murray is he'll make more than what Carolina's goalies do, and he's a lateral move. Carolina's strength against Boston was in the crease. Mrazek ahd Reimer were just better than Tuukka and Halak
28 aoû 2020 à 13 h 44
#23
Rejoint: avr 2018
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Quoting: doublem24
Do you think this is realistic?

Staal for Murray and Bjugstad.



No. Staal at @6Mx3 ROCKETS past Johnson as the worst contract on the team... and you are paying a 3rd, with $1.25M retained to dump Johnson.
28 aoû 2020 à 13 h 46
#24
Rejoint: avr 2018
Messages: 5,351
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Quoting: doublem24
I completely agree, in fact, I don't think Bjugstadt is physical at all. You can't look at his height and weight and assume he plays a physical game. He's almost invisible at times. Granted I've only watch him in Pittsburgh but my main takeaways were, "I wish Bjugstad used his size to his advantage more".


Well you are just showing that you don't watch much hockey at all, including Penguin hockey. Or are you confusing when he was in IR for being invisable?
28 aoû 2020 à 15 h 41
#25
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DoubleM24
Rejoint: oct 2016
Messages: 98
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Quoting: Yojimbo
Well you are just showing that you don't watch much hockey at all, including Penguin hockey. Or are you confusing when he was in IR for being invisable?


Lol, chill man, just my opinion. You got a real tude on ya.

Also, if Bjugstad is constantly hurt and you attest that he plays physical.... should he really be playing physical? Dude is frail.
 
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