And he did do a good job because he is one of the beat defenseman at keeping top scoring chance a a lower level. Thats was shown in the other graphics and deviation is more likely attributable to luck when a goal is score of a defenseman so even then this is a poor argument against him. Like i mentioned before defensive point share is putting all defensivr stats and metrics and give the a good idea of defensive plays. But you didn’t read about did you? Because if you had you realize that it’s calculated by taking count expected goal against. For a guys who see the ice in majority off the time on penalty kill and at 5 on 5 its normal that is stats reflect like it

And that exactly where lindell is sluted. Number 3 in dallas and is use for defensive purposes mainly

Actually I did read it. (Nice copy and paste from hockey reference btw) And I'm no genius, but it didn't appear to differentiate at all for strength (i.e EV, PP, PK). A good chunk of it also had to do with plus/minus, which is a pretty irrelevant stat. It also didn't mention anything about QoT, QoC, or Zone Starts. These are pretty big holes if you are trying to have an all encapsulating defensive stat. It seemed pretty flawed if you ask me. You said it takes into account all defensive metrics, but it didn't seem like it did.

Buffalo has a better D core than this...

There no stats that are a perfect reflect of a player utility but some of it show a global view. Lindell isn’t a norris winner but he is reliable on defense and there plenty of documentation and graphic that shows it. Lindell have number similar to pesce this season and everyone agree that pesce is a very great defensive defenseman. They are perfect in their respective role in third spot playing big minutes agaisnt top opponent.

Where are these other documentations and graphics? I'm actually asking, not claiming that they don't exist.

Okay that is enough of this ****. I have been sitting back laughing at this thread for awhile now but this has just become too much. Lets begin with your chronic lack of understanding of any of the metrics utilised in this thread.

The first chart I posted is a RAPM regression model (regularised adjusted plus minus). It shows the total ability of a player at 5v5 both in the offensive and defensive zone and adjusts for just about everything you can think of (CoT,CoC,etc). What that chart shows is that Lindell is directly responsible for cratering his teams offence at historic levels. Not that he doesn't do anything, he makes things SOOO much worse. The defensive metrics in that chart have him at or below average defensively meaning he is directly responsible for his team being worse defensively than an average player being put out on the ice. He gives up ~ league average quality and allows the other team to massively out shoot his own compared to a league average player. He is categorically bad at both ends of the ice.

The second chart is manually tracked micro stats. This breaks down individual aspects of a game that he does or doesn't do well. He is good at breakups, but that doesn't mean he is good defensively. He is good at that one particular thing, but overall is so bad that his team gets caved in.

The stats that you are quoting are un-adjusted base stats jammed into one another, and while they are a better indicator than +/- for example, they are FAR from a good stat to model an individuals play and are 'destroyed' by even the most rudimentary regression model.

I also want to touch on the fact that you seem to be so ****ing smug about what you are saying. You are a perfect example of the dunning Krueger effect, where you know a little about a subject, but you act like your word is ****ing gospel when in reality you are basically in the same boat as an uniformed idiot. pic related:


You then go on to claim that Lindell puts up similar numbers to Pesce. He does not and it isn't even close.



Lindell is the result of old hockey thinking that is rapidly being removed from this league. His contract is terrible and he is holding his team back. I wouldn't take that contract if you offered me an unprotected 1st, and no one with an ounce of modern hockey knowledge (read analytics) would.

@Random2152 Thanks for being smarter than me.

Go read above in that conversation! Go at rotowire and compare lindell to other defenseman like pesce or savard.

There was nothing of substance in that conversation.

And what make you think that you have the holy grails of stats. You basically brings a nice ce graphic that show exactly what i have said earlier. The only thing that this graphic show is that he doesn’t generate a lot of offense when he is on ice( what i already stated and that he have a negtive corsi but since you didn’t analize why he is in such position and you jut come out there and try to look like the next genius. Most of is assignments are in defensive zone and when they protected a leads. He play a basic game and that a direct results on possession and defensive corsi. You might think that your better then everyone but you didn’t fool me. You jist put graphic and think that people will be amazed by it but you didn’t even know what meaning they have. Now if you don’t have anythibg intelligent to bring to this conversation, you can continue your pretentious behavior elsewhere.

Maybe you should think for a minutes. If a players start mostly in is own zone 800 time then they have lost about 400 faceoff and that lead most of the time to a scoring chance. So that have a dirrevt affect on corsi, but as for a players who start in offensive zone like shea theodore then he benefits from the faceoff they win and that generate scoring chance. With your lovely little graphics you might want to put players who are in the same situation. A guy like theodore have started around 60% of is shift in the offensive zone compared to 45% to lindell. This is having a major impact on corsi since when your in the offensive zone you dont have to defend and usually when you have a offensive faceoof you send your best units out there. So lindell face the top opponent shift after shift, but again you thibk that your little graphics and your two or three fency words make you the reference in hockey. Maybe next time you should think twice before posting that kind of bullshat

This... This is something. Wow.

@LeafsFanForSomeReason
@Wqrrior

I think this response tells you all you need to know about the convo in this thread.

@Random2152 Yeah... I'm having trouble believing that I actually just read that.

Wow this is a big boy responds. Seem like your little graphics doesn’t show everything After all.

I must say though, that there's a reason he is on the dallas top 4. They could put anyone there in reality.

However, this guy is paid 5.8 million for 6 years.

Some similar defensemen in the 5M bracket are:

Slavin
Skjei
Rielly
Dumba
Muzzin (as of next year)
Tanev (i presume as of next year)
Lindholm
Risto
Orlov

Now, which of those would you rather on your team?
There's definitely two distinct categories - those worth their value and those not.
Ristolainen, Skjei and Lindell fall into the category of not meeting their value.
Still, they are all top 4 defensemen, but if you are paying that much money, they should be pretty balanced. Lindell is not.

You stated: " Seem like your little graphics doesn’t show everything After all."

I don't view advanced stats as the end all indicator of how good a player is, but they do give a decent indication. When somebody's stats are that bad, and compare to a guy listed as a pay-to-take contract, you know something's up.

I still think you are abnormally high on Lindell or don't really know where he falls in line. He is a lower end top 4 guy paid to be a top 2 guy. We cannot let his cap hit mask the value he actually has.