2 firsts? You have to be kidding. Horvat isn't worth 2 firsts

I mean, yeah? Canucks would accept but I doubt Toronto even considers 2 more years without firsts.

well there are retaining and trading there captain. that would be the price. depends on extension too

and Tavares and Marner aren't worth $11M dollars...but Dubas thinks they are so.... Maybe if he had paid them a little closer to their actual value the Leafs could afford those defencemen that they so desperately need.

Foligno was paid a 1st by TOR. Dubas just chucks out 1sts like crazy anyway

TO wouldn't extend him. Can't afford to. It's a strict rental and he's the captain of a lousy team that doesn't care. He's also terrible defensively. I don't see why we would want him?

Yeah he should have seen the pandemic coming and planned accordingly eh? Just a mindless troll response

**** that, you can keep him

1. Our defensemen are absolutely fine
2. Marner is worth 11m

Canucks aren’t trading luke schenn

And Nick Foligno isn't worth 1 first am I right?

Lessons were learned. I do wish he would have said healthy though, I think he looked real good before getting hurt right before the playoffs. I like Horvat but I think his value isn't as high as you guys think. He's a captain getting traded, that's not a great endorsement. He'll have value but I think a 1st and a good prospect is the offer.

Like Robertson and a 1st for Horvat at 50% and I am not sure I would do that, I would have to think hard. He does add some extra depth down the middle and maybe creates an interesting 3rd line to add more offence but he's really not good defensively and I am not sure that's a wise add for the Leafs. Especially as a rental. I would have paid more for Miller last year at the deadline though. Now I wouldn't add Miller period. That contract won't age well.

I agree It is quite steep. I can see him re-signing with the Leafs though. Barring any extraordinary events, the expected cap increase should accommodate signing him while keeping the band together.

If he resigns then we are moving Nylander because we can't afford Horvat and him. And I would much rather keep the better offensive player and the better defensive player. Because despite what almost everyone on where will say, Nylander is far better defensively than Horvat is.

I'd say Kadri is decent comparable and a deal like 53 MM over 8 years could potentially work. If Nylander was more consistent with his effort I might agree but that hasn't been and still isn't the case.

And yet, Nylander scores more and allows way less chances against. When a guy can score a point a game and is above average defensively, (that is exactly what Nylander is) and not always give a consistent effort, isn't that still way better than a guy who "tries harder" but doesn't score as much and is much worse defensively?

Team and usage likely plays a role in Nylander's better numbers. Would be interesting to see what the numbers would look like if team and usage were reversed. Their relative numbers are pretty equal. A better comparison considering usage would be Kerfoot and Horvat has the superior numbers there. In any event, this ACGM team would still be geared on keeping the core intact.

Except if you resign Horvat, you lose Nylander. And I would take Nylander and Kerfoot over Horvat and Kerfoot. If that's what you are getting at.

That's not a given. With guys like Knies and Minten in the pipeline I'd re-sign Horvat instead of Kerfoot, Bunting and Kampf.

Kampf is so necessary though, we need good Defensive forwards. Why wouldn't we keep him? And once again, Horvat sucks defensively.

Kampf was a valuable guy last year but its evident he needs to play with above average wingers to be most effective. If he demands anything over 2 MM, then Leafs are better served anteing up for Horvat instead of Kampf and Bunting IMO. Also, Horvat's underlying defensive numbers seem better than Kampf's in a few areas. What makes you think Horvat sucks defensively?

Literally every metric. The guy gives up major amount of odd man rushes (the biggest flaw on the Leafs but it's a coaching style I believe) and his play in his zone is messy.

Don't meant to be a pain but where would one find these metrics? The numbers I see on Natural Stat Trick and Moneypuck show no indications that he sucks defensively.

Look at his expected goal differential on natural statrick and also his High Danger Chances for %. Good defensive players don't generate his poor grades in those categories. B

HDCF% from 20-21 to date was 51.91 for Horvat. Kerfoot was 48.29 and Kampf 41.18.

This article does shed some light: https://theathletic.com/1477901/2019/12/21/how-bo-horvats-defensive-issues-are-costing-the-canucks-at-even-strength/

Wonder if he's bounced back from what seemed to be injury related regression.