Feedback always appreciated, try to keep a good tone in this one since it took me ages to type out. You don't have to agree with me, it's okay, but for the sake of reason I'll explain my methodology:
I have looked at VERY MANY, like unhealthy many, NHL games over the last few seasons. From watching every player individually, and with stats and my own reason trying to weigh for example primary>secondary assists, playing with a play-driver or driving their own line etc. this is my conclusion (sorta, I've probably made a few mistakes). I've used stats from the last 3 seasons whenever applicable, and some predictive element goes into it (ex. Price and Schneider both looked VERY good 3 years ago but haven't really since).
Many of the best players play center, so naturally the average center rating will be higher than for the other positions.
If you think I rate player X on your favorite team poorly, remember to look at his line-mates as well, as I might be attributing the skill to those players instead, without thinking less of your team as a whole.
If your instinct is to compare stats I've noted a few players that I personally (and statistically) believe stand out as either very skilled defensively or somewhat poor compared to their rating, although I've probably missed a few. I also try to take into account transition-game since denying zone-entries and gaining them yourself is a huge part of todays game (ex. something Drew Doughty and Cam Fowler are v.good at).
With all that said, I post this because I want to hear what you guys think, so give me hell!
Yes, Ovi is probably rated lower on here than most other lists. I might push players like him and Laine a bit too far down for not driving play , when in reality they might not have to as much due to their obvious shooting abilities.
I'd bump Stamkos and Seguin both up to 90. Seguin is decent two way and easily best player on Stars
I think they can get shuffled into the same category as Ovi and Laine since they're both shooters in a sense. I think it's even more important to drive play when you're playing center though, and neither of them does that better than their most common winger in Benn and Kucherov respectively. I've been thinking about this a lot, and I don't think that I can justify it, at least not with how I view the game. But thanks for your input, it's exactly the sort of stuff I wanna bounce with people!
Marchand - Bergeron - Pastrnak
91 too high 92 90 (a bit low for a player who broke Gretzky's most points in one playoff game record.
Debrusk - Krejci
85 (82 is low for what Debrusk does and have done, at least 83/84) 86 (a bit high but at least 84/85)
McAvoy- Chara
86 85 (a bit low at 84)
Krug
86
Rask
88, 86 is way too low. He had a bad start to the season but hes been doing very very well recently, its just the Dcore injuries that is hurting.
Halak
84.
As a bruins fan, I feel like these should be the numbers for these players.
Also, Laine and Tarasenko isn't 88 and 89, both should be 90 at least
Marchand - Bergeron - Pastrnak
91 too high 92 90 (a bit low for a player who broke Gretzky's most points in one playoff game record.
Debrusk - Krejci
85 (82 is low for what Debrusk does and have done, at least 83/84) 86 (a bit high but at least 84/85)
McAvoy- Chara
86 85 (a bit low at 84)
Krug
86
Rask
88, 86 is way too low. He had a bad start to the season but hes been doing very very well recently, its just the Dcore injuries that is hurting.
Halak
84.
As a bruins fan, I feel like these should be the numbers for these players.
Also, Laine and Tarasenko isn't 88 and 89, both should be 90 at least
I'm going with the larger sample size and the fact that Marchand still is an exceptional player defensively. He has 194 points in his last 176 games and steals pucks with his stick at a ridiculous rate. I love me some Pasta, and in my mind there's no doubt he'll soon be in the discussion of the best few wingers in this league, rather than an elite one. I'm a bit hesitant to the starts of seasons and isolated playoff numbers since anything can happen during a small set of games. But if you consider that no more than 8 wingers rate above him he's done pretty well for himself on this list too.
I debated Chara; he's one of those guys that makes his partner look amazing and plays a solid game himself. He rarely makes mistakes, and often plays more at a rating of like 87 or something, but when he makes mistakes he doesn't have any real turning speed to get back into the play. Most of his mistakes then lead to high danger scoring chances, but I agree, a good Chara is better than the players he's compared to there.
I'm glad we agree on McAvoy/Krug, usually other Bruins fans don't rate the latter without any real reason behind it.
So yeah I've got pretty low ratings overall of the goalies, 86 is like average starter level IMO. I think Rask at this point is a league average goalie considering his cold streaks. If they play Halak more, which they have done so far, this season I think there's the possibility to delay the long and slow decline that's been going on for about the past 2 or 3 seasons (given he was elite when it began). Could I see him at 87? Sure, I think 88 is a stretch though when considering how much better the Bruins play defensively than any of the teams with a goalie at 88. Hank for example gets buried in high danger scoring chances by a pretty bad Rangers team but keep them in it without real cold streaks and without much releif. He's still up .005 on Rask when he should be worse if they were equal imo.
I debated long and hard about Tarasenko but decided to drop him to 89. Not really sure why, honestly, I could just as well put him at 90.
Laine is a bit tougher to sell me on. He's not very involved in the play outside of the offensive zone - compare to Pasta who stick-checks, breaks up passes, gains the zone with possession and sets up team mates. I don't think Laines exceptional shooting ability makes up for that, when considering that all the other players near the top have excellent shots as well.
As you might have figured at this point I'm a Bruins fan myself. Krejci was an enigma for me during this process. I've watched most Bruins games the last few years, and since Krejci's and DeBrusk's ratings reasonably are highly correlated I ended up swaying in favor of Krejci for these reasons:
- He's never really had any other decent winger.
- Since the Bergeron-line plays the opponents top line (Bergy and Marchand are sorta like a shut-down line on crack, that scores) Krejci often ends up with the opponents "shut-down line" vs him.
- He's obviously talented in the offensive zone, but stats show he's actually really good defensively.
- He's not a superbly talented skater, but his passing ability actually leads to very good transition numbers as well.
So yeah, Krejci probably need the wheels of DeBrusk (who could be higher, I also don't want to be biased), but I still think DeBrusk gains the bigger benefit out of the two playing together.
46 is a lot like Ryan Johansen, but he often times puts up better numbers with worse line-mates. He also rates better than Seguin which is ultimately why I dropped Tyler to 88, interestingly enough.
I'm going with the larger sample size and the fact that Marchand still is an exceptional player defensively. He has 194 points in his last 176 games and steals pucks with his stick at a ridiculous rate. I love me some Pasta, and in my mind there's no doubt he'll soon be in the discussion of the best few wingers in this league, rather than an elite one. I'm a bit hesitant to the starts of seasons and isolated playoff numbers since anything can happen during a small set of games. But if you consider that no more than 8 wingers rate above him he's done pretty well for himself on this list too.
I debated Chara; he's one of those guys that makes his partner look amazing and plays a solid game himself. He rarely makes mistakes, and often plays more at a rating of like 87 or something, but when he makes mistakes he doesn't have any real turning speed to get back into the play. Most of his mistakes then lead to high danger scoring chances, but I agree, a good Chara is better than the players he's compared to there.
I'm glad we agree on McAvoy/Krug, usually other Bruins fans don't rate the latter without any real reason behind it.
So yeah I've got pretty low ratings overall of the goalies, 86 is like average starter level IMO. I think Rask at this point is a league average goalie considering his cold streaks. If they play Halak more, which they have done so far, this season I think there's the possibility to delay the long and slow decline that's been going on for about the past 2 or 3 seasons (given he was elite when it began). Could I see him at 87? Sure, I think 88 is a stretch though when considering how much better the Bruins play defensively than any of the teams with a goalie at 88. Hank for example gets buried in high danger scoring chances by a pretty bad Rangers team but keep them in it without real cold streaks and without much releif. He's still up .005 on Rask when he should be worse if they were equal imo.
I debated long and hard about Tarasenko but decided to drop him to 89. Not really sure why, honestly, I could just as well put him at 90.
Laine is a bit tougher to sell me on. He's not very involved in the play outside of the offensive zone - compare to Pasta who stick-checks, breaks up passes, gains the zone with possession and sets up team mates. I don't think Laines exceptional shooting ability makes up for that, when considering that all the other players near the top have excellent shots as well.
As you might have figured at this point I'm a Bruins fan myself. Krejci was an enigma for me during this process. I've watched most Bruins games the last few years, and since Krejci's and DeBrusk's ratings reasonably are highly correlated I ended up swaying in favor of Krejci for these reasons:
- He's never really had any other decent winger.
- Since the Bergeron-line plays the opponents top line (Bergy and Marchand are sorta like a shut-down line on crack, that scores) Krejci often ends up with the opponents "shut-down line" vs him.
- He's obviously talented in the offensive zone, but stats show he's actually really good defensively.
- He's not a superbly talented skater, but his passing ability actually leads to very good transition numbers as well.
So yeah, Krejci probably need the wheels of DeBrusk (who could be higher, I also don't want to be biased), but I still think DeBrusk gains the bigger benefit out of the two playing together.
46 is a lot like Ryan Johansen, but he often times puts up better numbers with worse line-mates. He also rates better than Seguin which is ultimately why I dropped Tyler to 88, interestingly enough.
very true. I fully agree with you. The thing is, most Boston fans think Krejci's 7M cap hit sucks. He doesn't suck and he is worth the 7M, the thing is silent and doesn't have the wingers like Horton and Lucic.
very true. I fully agree with you. The thing is, most Boston fans think Krejci's 7M cap hit sucks. He doesn't suck and he is worth the 7M, the thing is silent and doesn't have the wingers like Horton and Lucic.
Yup, I think that, and also that he's so efficient. Like the way people love to hate Nylander cause he never looks gassed when in reality they're just really smart players.
I've wanted to go after Chris Kreider for a long time to see how he and Krejci could potentially take off together.
Hopefully that all settles down now that the cap rises and worse players sign bigger contracts. But as I mentioned, how Johansen makes 8m and is such a close comparable without ever being mentioned as an issue is weird to me.
Awesome list thanks for posting ! as a Sabres fan only thing I noticed was no Ullmark on the list, most in the organization believe he will be the goalie of the future...aside from allowing a 6 spot yesterday he has put up very respectable numbers over his young career and with you giving the benefit of the doubt for goalies with low sample size i think Linus could get at least a 79 rating....Also thought it was a little strange Pominville and Okposo have the same rating...yeah pominville had a little hot streak a month or so ago but only because he was playing with Jack and Skinner aside from that he cant do much on his own and is really a 4th liner at this stage of his career...okposo is more of a decent 2nd line/ really good 3rd line guy and has a more complete game then 29....but pretty close anyhow i have okposo at 82 and pommer at 80.....otherwise outstanding rankings hopefully EA adds roster sharing next year i would definitely use these! ill prolly adjust a few of my rankings now and post a new top 50 list soon merging mine with yours. Thanks again!
Awesome list thanks for posting ! as a Sabres fan only thing I noticed was no Ullmark on the list, most in the organization believe he will be the goalie of the future...aside from allowing a 6 spot yesterday he has put up very respectable numbers over his young career and with you giving the benefit of the doubt for goalies with low sample size i think Linus could get at least a 79 rating....Also thought it was a little strange Pominville and Okposo have the same rating...yeah pominville had a little hot streak a month or so ago but only because he was playing with Jack and Skinner aside from that he cant do much on his own and is really a 4th liner at this stage of his career...okposo is more of a decent 2nd line/ really good 3rd line guy and has a more complete game then 29....but pretty close anyhow i have okposo at 82 and pommer at 80.....otherwise outstanding rankings hopefully EA adds roster sharing next year i would definitely use these! ill prolly adjust a few of my rankings now and post a new top 50 list soon merging mine with yours. Thanks again!
I mean the top 50, even 62 actually, of a forward position should be all 2nd liners in theory, right? I've probably forgotten a few players that might belong on the bottom end of those rankings, but yeah I have them both in that sorta lower end 2nd line role. I think Pominville got sorta written off as "done" after one unfortunate season in Minnesota and the trade, but he's still a pretty smart and effective hockey player imo. I don't think he stands out as something special in a 4th line role, but I don't think he looks too out of place on a second or even first line either if that makes sense.
I didn't actually sort goalies by rankings as much as I checked stats from the ones with enough starts, and Linus wasn't one of them. Ullmark is I guy I have hopes for as well considering what he did in Sweden at a young age. I think he should be entering his prime now or soon-ish and see no real reason why he should be lower than 81, 82 or something with real upside/potential in addition to that. I think having two goalies rather than one designated starter is the future of that position, so I think Buffalo has done well for themselves in that regard. Because even if Hutton isn't much more than what he's showing, he doesn't have to be.
Yeah I agree with you, it seems that they often do a lazy job with the rosters and player value and such in general. Roster share gets a lot of that workload off their hands for essentially nothing. It's a really fun thought exercise, and when you've laid the foundation it's not that much work to move players up and down - I think I have some already that I feel like I got wrong. Hope to see another post from you!
hey that link you sent me with top 20 centers, i found it very strange Seguin was not on there..do you know if they considered him as a winger or he just didnt make the list? seems a lot of people think seguin is better than or at least equal to benn but i see u have benn rated a point higher
hey that link you sent me with top 20 centers, i found it very strange Seguin was not on there..do you know if they considered him as a winger or he just didnt make the list? seems a lot of people think seguin is better than or at least equal to benn but i see u have benn rated a point higher
Seguin was 21st or something, you can find some talk of it here https://hockeypdocast.com/
It's episode 255. He actually puts Seguin inside his top 20 on the episode with the motivation "moving forward". Yeah I think Benn is still driving that line from the wing, I think most people value goal scoring a bit too much since it's not always sustainable and based on shooting %, but stats people might value it a bit on the low end. It's obviously impossible to know exactly, so I like listening to different sources than main stream media etc as well
sabres1108 a aimé ceci.
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