I dont have to back it up. go ask nhl players about him. or are there thoughts irrelevant?

Their thoughts are relevant, but we shouldn't just take their word for it. Trust but verify. We should be strong independent women, that can think for ourselves.

There must be something out that that shows Price is the best. The best always have stats that show they're elite. I'm sure some stat shows price is elite. Can you find it?

so u admit that u know more than an nhl player, whose put his lifes work into the game. is that correct?

Nope just saying we shouldnt just consider one type of source. Multiple sources will improve our confidence that price is the best. If it's true, then other information out there should support the players.

Always good to have more than one source of information. We don't want to be too one dimensional in our argument that price is the best. Let's build a solid case that price is the best to support the players

Players knows better . Your just a kid with a bag of Doritos in Mom's basement .

so ill assume that u believe that u know more than an nhl player. okay bud. u do you

Players may know better, but if they're right then there should be some other data available to verify it I'm simply asking for that data. Not asking for any opinions, just some supporting data.

attacking my character, doesnt change the stats. You both need to learn how to build an argument. It's pretty sad watching you two struggle to defend your side. You have one point, and cant seem to defend it any more than that. At least I can build an argument from my basement, you two just sit there from your basements regurgitating the same line, and cant formulate an original thought.

kinda ironic u saying "attacking my character" arent u the guy who just made a troll account, just to troll me? talk about stupidity, and hypocrisy.

what troll account? It's honestly not me. If I wanted to call you names, I would just do it. No point in making a troll account to do that.

Your argument is lazy, and I've been pretty forward in attacking your argument calling it an appeal to authority and overall being pretty pathetic/weak, with no original thoughts and the same regurgitation of the players must be right over and over, but I dont think ive attacked you at all, except for that basement part that I just returned to sender. I try to see both sides of every argument, and hope you realize, all I've been asking for is to hear your side of the argument. I just want to see the information that supports your stance beyond saying the "players must be right".

I want to see the info that can change my mind, if it's there, I'll happily listen. All you have to do is present it.

ur the guy who claims to know more than an nhler. i got nothing to prove

Again never claimed that, trying to have a discussion here, without the same friggen appeal to authority argument again. It's honestly embarrassing how repetitive and reliant on other people's opinions you are. Figure it out present something else and think for yourself and maybe we can have an actual discussion, instead of parroting the same BS over and over again, which I think would be more enjoyable for both of us.

Until you present something else that backs your namesake, I'm going to assume you are incapable of presenting any stats , because those stats simply do not exist, and you will resort to the same "I dont have to", "Youre not an expert" response you always do.

Price_is_not_the_GOAT - For Carey and habs fans' sake everywhere, be better. You're an embarrassment to them

I think Price is still a top 10-15 goalie in the league based on skill. His numbers reflect below that in the past few years but relying solely on numbers despite how "advanced" they might be is a bit silly.

What gets lost in translation here with everyone arguing is that although Price is still a good goalie, his trade value is extremely low due to his contract and performance the past few years. Clearly he hasn't been playing as well as he did from 2014 to 2017, and when you make 10.5 mil you are expected to carry. Suggesting any team trades their best prospect and a first for that is insane. Especially a contending team that needs all the cap they can get to prepare for inevitable injuries in the playoffs.

100% agree. only way he gets traded of mtl retains like 4mill, which i doubt they do. but hey, i can see vegas asking, if the habs arent contending by that time. i can see him bouncing back and being top 3 in vezina voting next season. he's had a bad start. last night he was amazing

cant really disagree with anything here. Nice moderate approach. I didnt want either side to trying to rely solely on numbers or solely on opinions, wanted a blend and a good discussion from both sides. If the stats show he's not great, we simply cant bury our heads in the sand with a complete appeal to authority, and assume they're right, that's just stupid. His value isnt great given his contract and the returns price fans want our out of line.

top 10 - 15 seems fine given his history. Could bounce back a bit, but age isnt on his side.

funny both you and price is the goat post way more than me.

what's your doritos/60 at?

so bud. are u gonna still argue that price isn't one of the best goalies in the league? the athletic just did a player poll. they asked 392 NHL players from all 31 teams. they asked which goalie would u take for a game 7. 33%, the majority of national hockey league players said that they'll choose Carey Price. but im sure u dont care, because u know more than current nhl players right?

These survey results are great sources of information. We should probably consider these new survey results in our discussion. We should not willfully ignore any source of information, that would just be plain stupid, right?

of course we shouldnt ignore any info. but how much you put weight on that info matters. in this case "advanced stats" are bloody useless

So those stats tell us nothing because they disagree with opinions of players? Why are those stats useless? Is it because the stats are flawed? Really just trying to understand the reasoning here, not trying to be controversial.

stats are like bikinis. they show something, but now what we need to see.

Agreed stats show something. They absolutely do not show everything you need, but shouldnt we consider the same thing is possible for players opinons?

To me a player's opinion on a goalie would be formed based on their experiences and what they see. They see a goalie making saves that they dont expect an average NHL goalie to make, their opinion increases. Meanwhile, just like my beer league goalie, they see them letting in a floater or two that the player thinks he should have had, their opinion of him against an average goalie decreases. More or less i think we can agree players build their opinion on goalies over time based on the saves they he he shouldn't make but does, and the saves he should have had but didnt, and then their opinion of essentially how hard it is to score against him fluctuates from there. It's impossible for players for players to see catalog, and analyze every shot though, and they dont see every shot, they dont watch every game, they dont know what the actual expectation is in each scenario, they make assumptions and unconscious decisions to build their opinion. Their opinion has merit, but it also has it's flaws.

Now an advanced stat like dSV% is trying to measure a similar thing. It looks at shots from different areas of the ice, categorizes them, and then creates an expected save % on that shot based on the available history of similar shots, and then if the goalie saves it, he get's a little tick saying he saved a shot that 98.7% of the time get's saved. The issue is the shot data, xSV% and dSV% data doesnt capture every scenario either. It doesn't necessarily see that price's view was blocked, the head fake the player threw, the speed of the shot, or the million other factors, but it's trying, it's not perfect either, but it's making similar assumptions and decisions to build the model. We get a large enough sample, and things even out a bit, out of the thousands of shots that are taken from a given area, many will face similar screens, and the expected sv% starts to inherently build in the affect the screen has, while as a goalie faces more shots, the one screen shot he let in that hurt his stats early, is evened out by the unscreened shots he faces from the same area later on. He get's a couple more of the shots he should have, and balances out the 1 shot he should have had. It's trying to build a similar opinion of him based on shot and save data.

To me both have their inherent flaws. Neither is perfect. Some of the old stats are like a one piece they dont show a lot and they leave a lot to be desired, some new advanced stats might be more of bikini, they still cover up a bit of the situation, and the players, well they might might see everything, but the suns in their eyes so they miss a bit too.



edit oh and +/- is the awkward kid in the corner of the pool with their shirt still on because it's purposely covering up what we see based on all the random rules it tosses in.