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L_B_R
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12 janv. 2016
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Blackhawks de Chicago
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MENTIONS "J'AIME"
ÉQUIPES VIA FAUTEUIL-DG
Forum:
Armchair-GM
9 avr. 2021 à 22 h 39
Sujet:
Since toronto is already beating the system
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>KakkoForMauriceRichardAward</b></div><div>I don't understand the LTIR shenanigans, like I don't get how getting a player and putting him on LTIR creates more cap room... like for instance, if a team has 6 mil in cap room, acquires a player and places him on LTIR, then his enture cap hit «disappears», so the team keeps 6M in cap room, you don't get more...
Are you able to explain this?</div></div>
They technically don't get "more" cap space, but the team is allowed to go over the cap limit by that the amount that is on LTIR.
So if a team is at the $81.5m cap limit and put a player on LTIR that is worth $6m, they can now go to $87.5m in terms of total cap hits on the team. A team could then acquire another player or players that equal $6m in cap hit if they wanted.
Chicago did this when Kane broke his collarbone in 2015 - they were at the cap limit, put Kane on LTIR to go over the cap by $6.2m, and then acquired Vermette at close to $4m + Timonen at $2m. Kane came back in the playoffs when there is no cap limit.
Tampa's roster right now has a cap hit of $98.5m because they have so many on LTIR. Kucherov $9.5 + Garorik $4.8 + Nilsson $2.6 + Stephens $.0737 means they can go over the cap by over $17m. So $81.5 + $17 = $98.5m. Kucherov will be like Kane and return in the playoffs when they have no cap limit.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
9 avr. 2021 à 22 h 6
Sujet:
Team USA
Seth Jones been on the decline the last two seasons, I wonder if that'll impact whether they take him. I'd rather them take Pesce but that's just me.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
8 avr. 2021 à 19 h 50
Sujet:
Hmmm
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Skyraider112</b></div><div>Its a fair trade but trading Ullmark leaves us in a terrible position in net, hence Adams wont do it unless he gets an unrefusable deal which the above is not imo.
Also not interested in Stralmans contract, especially if you want to resign McCabe</div></div>
It's not really a good trade for the Hawks jfyi. It's one of the Hawks better young players for a UFA goalie that they don't need.
Goal tending was an area of question for the Hawks going into the season but Lankinen looks like the real deal. The Hawks might look for a cheap vet backup for next season, but they can find plenty of those in FA without giving up an asset. The Hawks biggest area of weakness now is in their forward depth, especially at center, and they seem high on Kurashev as a two-way middle 6 center option.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
3 avr. 2021 à 15 h 20
Sujet:
Next year
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>sedin33</b></div><div>This trade would be done at the draft.
I think trade would be similar to the trade between Detroit and NYR for Staal for a 2nd. He had one year remaining at $5.7M ($4.2M cash). Roussel has a $3M cap with only $1.9M cash.
This was done in a flat cap environment and I think it's a good comparable. A 3rd for Roussel cap dump is market.</div></div>
That's a good comparable, but I think Detroit was willing to play Staal when they traded for him. Idt the Hawks would want to play Roussel. But now i'm just speculating beyond the scope of this conversation so it's a bit moot lol.
Either way, yeah I guess not a bad deal overall. I'd hope the Hawks would stay away from low pick deals only, myself.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
3 avr. 2021 à 15 h 3
Sujet:
Next year
I feel like it's going to take more than a 3rd round pick to take on a cap dump that goes beyond this season.
It's not a high cap hit, but the Hawks will be paying actual money vs some cap dumps like the Bolland, Hossa, or Datsyuk trades which were paid mostly by insurance. I don't think it'll be the same, but like Bickell took a top young player to move. Datsyuk wasn't being paid at all and it was worth 4 spots in the 1st round.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
2 avr. 2021 à 14 h 21
Sujet:
My ideal 2021-2022 roster
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>timmeejr</b></div><div>Would any of the Sabres Defensman be someone you realistically consider for strome? Also We need goalie help(BUF) but I don't think we look at Subban</div></div>
The Sabres only have one d-man of value (Dahlin) which is an obvious no from Buffalo and none of the Sabres defense prospects are necessarily better than the Hawks' kids, which they have a lot of in the system. The Hawks need potential top 6 forwards, not d-men imo.
Also the Hawks don't really have a surplus of good goalies. Lankinen isn't going anywhere and then it's really just Subban who has been playing well this season.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
17 mars 2021 à 20 h 1
Sujet:
Strome Dach back and trading
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Gmonwy</b></div><div>How is Dach doing?</div></div>
He's still on the timeline to return in April sometime supposedly. Originally it was like late April at the earliest but Dach himself said he's ahead of schedule and he has been skating/practicing with the Hawks as of last week. Getting him back for the final 15ish game would be ideal.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
17 mars 2021 à 18 h 4
Sujet:
TML_Hall
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>TooMalevolent</b></div><div>I get that, I just don't know if any teams gives a 1st for a rental. And I think it puts Buffalo in a corner if they holdout for that. I don't think any team could take Hall without 50% salary retention (NYI might be the only one with their recent injury). Maybe a team gets another team involved and they have both do 25%. But 4million for a contender would probably be tough.</div></div>
Any other season and it's probably, yes teams would give up a 1st for a rental if they're good enough - that used to be the going price for the best one (Chicago gave up a 1st + prospect for Ladd, for example).
This season is just weird though. On the one hand, the 2021 draft isn't as good as the previous ones or 2022 draft, so if there was ever a time to give up a 1st, this draft is it. On the other hand, teams don't want to waste futures on this weird shortened season necessarily.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
17 mars 2021 à 17 h 57
Sujet:
a scary good future
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>tyler19</b></div><div>its 33% retained, they said they are willing to take on bad contracts to gain assets and they could buy him out</div></div>
Jfyi no one is buying out a contract like Skinner's lol.
If a team bought Skinner out this summer, they'd have a cap hit of only $1.47m next season but then it goes up to almost $9m for the 2022-23 season and then back to $1.4m for 2 seasons then $4.4m then $6.5m for a season then 6 more years of a cap hit of $2.5m. That's Skinner on the books for <em>12 more years</em>. Never going to happen ever because there's no value in it.
The Hawks are definitely willing to take on bad contracts for assets, but they mean those that are expiring or have a year left - not one that goes on for 6 more years. It's not like it's impossible, just unlikely. Skinner probably would be better with someone like Kane feeding him pucks but dude has really declined in a two year span so that's a risk that Bowman is not known to take.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
17 mars 2021 à 17 h 50
Sujet:
a scary good future
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Jco5ta5</b></div><div>From Chicago standpoint, I’m listening to this offer. $6M for Skinner who can easily put up 20 goals and has put up 30 before. Put him on a line with Kane or Dach or (God willing) Toews. Give him PP1 minutes he could do well in Chicago.
You mention it takes a 1st then some. Ryan Johnson was a 1st rounder in 2019. He’s a LD which Hawks could use more of since De Haan and Zadorov may not be in the future plans. Plus the two draft picks will be in the 30s and 60s. This is a quality return IMO. Hawks could also always try to flip Skinner at a deadline in the future and retain 50% and you know teams will jump at Skinner for $3M. If that happens hawks are left with nothing but tons of assets (3 from this trade and a 1-2 from the subsequent Skinner trade if it happens).</div></div>
They probably want a 1st that is above 15, not a former late round pick which has closer value to a 3rd than a top 15 historically.
Also Johnson is a decent prospect but 1) he's years away which means he's not taking over De Haan / Zadorov when they'd actually need him to and 2) the Hawks have plenty of guys like him in the system, even LDs. Like he's a slightly bigger version of Beaudin or slightly smaller Kalynuk or Carlsson, who are already NHL ready. Or they also do have plenty of LD prospects like Demin, Kaiser, Krutil, Phillips, etc that weren't taken as high up but it's not an area of weakness. The Hawks need forward prospects, not defenders.
The picks are fine if you were talking about a few years of $6m in salary or retaining $3m, but there are <em><strong>6 years</strong></em> left of that. Chicago wouldn't even give Debrincat or Kubalik $6m for 6 years when they were signing them, no way they're taking on that long a contract right now. And def not going to want to carry dead $3m in space of that long either so that whole "they could flip him and retain" doesn't make sense in a flat cap world.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
17 mars 2021 à 17 h 27
Sujet:
Pay it forward
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>armer918</b></div><div>Leafs received a 5th for $2,500,000 last season's so a 3rd/4th is in the range</div></div>
Tbf Vegas didn't <em>need</em> Lehner necessarily and the demand wasn't especially high for goalies at all that TDL so the cost was low. Otoh, the Leafs and several other teams really want a great forward addition, and if they think Hall is the best, then it's probably going to cost more to retain. Forwards just always cost more at the TDL than any other group for a reason.
So demand being higher and the amount of real world cash in a down profit year, I could see it taking more to retain. Not like a lot more - maybe a 2nd/3rd, instead of 3rd/4th.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
17 mars 2021 à 17 h 14
Sujet:
IDK change needed
I don't think Eakin gets a 2nd round pick from anyone. It's not an expensive deal but he's declined in production a lot.
Also the Hawks might be down centers right now, but they should be fine for next season which is when it actually matters. Dach returning, hopefully Toews too, then have Strome, Kurahev, Suter + other prospects as options and they're not going to want an Eakin type blocking the young guys. They'd be better off just extending Soberberg at his current cap hit or keeping Strome to be 3C.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
9 oct. 2020 à 21 h 30
Sujet:
Whats Next
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>SociallyHawkward</b></div><div>Even if they have to retain a mil or two. He should land you a mid to late first rounder.</div></div>
They'd likely get more for Saad at the TDL - often rental then get a 1st + a prospect. And they could retain half then and still get a pick for taking on another contract from a contender trying to make space. Teams are more desperate at the TDL typically and the owners would have to spend less cash on any incoming players.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
9 oct. 2020 à 21 h 27
Sujet:
Buy or Sell
Jfyi if a player is picked up on waivers, salary isn't able to be retained.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
9 oct. 2020 à 1 h 21
Sujet:
Youth Movement
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Different_Perspective_85</b></div><div>That may be what he's worth, but that's not the same as what you'll get. Teams don't line up and pay premium asset's to solve other teams cap issues for them. Maybe that's what they get for him but I'd be surprised. I'd be pissed if my teams gave that up for him. Good player, great dude, agree with your description of him. COVID economy, flat cap and that contract sucks. Just don't see it. I could see OTT MAYBE doing this. To bring in an effective pro and help them hit the cap floor. Even then... replace the first with a solid prospect.</div></div>
The Hawks aren't really in such a cap crunch that they need a team to do them favors anymore after the Maatta trade and non resigning Crawford. They have $11m in cap space with only Kubalik and Strome of significance to sign who will reported be around $6.5m combined so then they'll end up with between $2.5-3m in space after they bring up 2-3 more entry level players (Mitchell, Suter, etc). Smith might be on LTIR this season since his back is so messed up which frees up even more space if they want. But $2.5m+ space means they don't need to move anyone else unless they really want to do it.
So yeah, def no need to move Saad anymore unless they're actually getting some assets for him. Otherwise, they'll just wait until the TDL where he should get normal rental price of a 1st + prospect OR a pick + good young player depending on how much they're willing to retain.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
9 oct. 2020 à 1 h 6
Sujet:
So your saying theres a chance at playoffs
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>TheEarthmaster</b></div><div>If you convince Hall to sign a short term deal with no raise, you end up keeping Koekkoek after not qualifying him, Strome takes a discount, Seabrook magically stays on LTIR, and Holtby has a bounce back year behind a defense that isn't very good?
Yeah man I guess there's a chance.</div></div>Most of these don't make sense for sure but the Koekkoek and Strome ones are ~fine.
Lots of teams still sign players they didn't qualify - they do that so they don't have to pay the minimum qualifying amount so the Hawks could theoretically do that with Koekkoek. They probably won't because they have guys like Mitchell waiting to play. They are probably going to do it with Subban, though.
And Strome is reportedly going to sign for around $2.5m x 2 years give or take a few thousand so him taking a discount is probably going to be the case.
But the others are silly. If Hall signs a one-year deal, it'll be with a contender, not a team arguably in the middle of a rebuild. The Hawks aren't going to pay Holtby more than they were willing to pay Crawford and he wouldn't do well behind the bad Hawks defense either. And Seabrook won't stay on LTIR, the dude def wants to try to play. Also Stretcher isn't worth $3m.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
9 oct. 2020 à 0 h 7
Sujet:
I dont understand Bowman
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>justaBoss</b></div><div>I don't get why VGK would retain half of Fleury's salary AND give up a pick when buying him out is cheaper...</div></div>
The report from before the draft was that Vegas was willing to give away their 2nd in 2021 for someone to take Flower with up to 50% retained but that other teams were asking for Vegas' 1st round pick instead (which they rejected).
And Vegas wanted to go the trade route because while a buyout is cheaper, it would mean the cap hit of at least around $2.1m is on the books for an extra two years (4 years total). The buyout for Maatta was also slightly cheaper but the Hawks traded and retained a bit more so they could clear the cap hit off sooner.
They're not as in a desperate position now after moving Stastny so they can probably offload Flower with a lower pick or less retained.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
9 oct. 2020 à 0 h 2
Sujet:
Reported RFA contracts
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>justaBoss</b></div><div>Can't see it. It's behind paywall.</div></div>
Exact quote from the article below.
Kubalik: <em>A league source said a deal is close, and Kubalik is expected to sign for three years at around $3.75-$3.9 million per season</em>.
Strome: <em>That negotiation is ongoing, but the expectation is that he’ll sign for probably two years at around $2.5 million, give or take a couple hundred thousand.
</em>
Forum:
Armchair-GM
3 oct. 2020 à 15 h 44
Sujet:
first time trying chicago
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>DDossett</b></div><div>Ok, solid point. but that was 5 years ago. I feel like the RFAs are getting a lot more with term now, do you think he would get 3.5 from arbitration? I mean its not the most amazing ppg ever but it still great, he's still a calder finalist and he looked good doing it. I feel like i'd offer sheet him for 4350000 x 3 easy. If i was looking for a left winger.</div></div>
Those are getting more with term are those that have over 140 games and maintained at least a .6 PPG during their ELC with a bump on the final year. So Debrincat, essentially.
Stone was 5 years ago but there aren't that many high end guys that play so little in their ELC year(s) so it's just overall really hard to find comps for Kubalik. I went back looking for comps with low games played with at least a .6 PPG (for reference, Kubalik was at .68 PPG):
Kris Versteeg (23) got a $3.08m x 3y deal in 2009 after 91 games and coming off a .68 PPG season with 22 goals + a calder trophy nom.
Michael Grabner (24) got $3m x 5y deal in 2011 after 96 games and coming off a .68 PPG season with 34 goals + a calder trophy nom.
Logan Couture (22) got a $2.875m x 2y deal in 2011 after 104 games and coming off a .71 PPG season with 32 goals + a calder trophy nom.
Ondrej Palat (23) got a $3.33m x 3y deal in 2014 after 95 games and coming off a .72 PPG season with 23 goals + a calder trophy nom.
Tyler Johnson (24) got a $3.33m x 3y deal in 2014 after 96 games and coming off a .62 PPG season with 24 goals + a calder trophy nom.
Mark Stone (23) got a $3.5m x 3y deal in 2015 after 103 games and a .8 PPG season with 26 goals + a calder trophy nom.
Connor Sheary (25) got a $3m x 3y deal in 2017 after 105 games and a .86 PPG season with 23 goals.
The closest in timing is Sheary who was is in a similar position to Kubalik but actually had a higher PPG - just less goals. But there were a lot of examples of guys who got calder trophy noms in this group and they still all got paid under $4m.
On top of all this, Kubalik may not score as well next season - his sh% was at nearly 20% and as high as 32% after he got moved to the top 6 which isn't sustainable. If he can increase his shots, then that'll offset the regression in sh% that is highly likely coming but it's all things to consider when discussing a player with a relatively small sample size. 100 games is typically the minimum basis for assessment for a reason. And outside of the 1 games in the playoffs, Kubalik only had 3 points which doesn't instill confidence in consistency.
So after all that, if the Hawks do sign him for $4.3m then it won't be the end of the world and Kubalik is likely worth that but it would be nice if Bowman could for once take advantage like many many many other teams to get a RFA signed to a lower bridge deal. If Tampa can get Kucherov to take his bridge deal, Idk why Bowman can't manage Kubalik (and Strome).
Forum:
Armchair-GM
26 sept. 2020 à 19 h 55
Sujet:
first time trying chicago
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>DDossett</b></div><div>Im not even sure just a 1st this year move seabrook. Thats a long contract for k. guhle maybe dawson mercer? I think chicago's stuck with seabrook and keith for a few more years. Could be worse.
I think your salaries are a bit low, kubalik had a heck of a year (4.5-5.5 x 2yr ?), namestikov will get over 2mil somewhere and haula gonna be 4x4 maybe more from someone desperate. But you got cap room.
Trades need work, murrays on the block so your gonna have to blow pitt away to get jarry instead, i don't know that ottawa hates that deal so i'll say they're high on maatta and give up the 2nd. Tampa would probably take kampf but i don't get why your trading him then paying sheary or namestnikov to be 4th liners.</div></div>
To be fair, Kubalik played less than 70 games - is there is a player who got over $4m with so few games played? The closest comps when it comes to games played / age / 2nd contract are still over 95 games played and under $4m. Mark Stone, for example: 103 games played coming off a .8 PPG season (better than Kubalik's .68) and he only got $3.5m.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
19 sept. 2020 à 15 h 5
Sujet:
Next season realistic ish
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>ChiHawk</b></div><div>I'm not following what you're saying. Maatta's buyout doesn't change, he has 2 years left on his agreement, the buyout is $680K at any time, his age has zero impact on that.
Strome and a 2nd or 3rd would pull in a good LHD like Brodin with an extension and Minnesota is desperate for a 2C and has plenty of guys on D. They are already rumored to be shopping one of their D and Brodin makes the most sense using reasonable deduction. Maybe it's Dumba, but doubt it.</div></div>
Late reply but: generally, buyout cap hits do change based on age. 1/3 of the remaining contract value, if the player is younger than 26 at the time of the buyout; 2/3 of the remaining contract value, if the player is 26 or older at the time of the buyout. Normally, since Maatta turned 26 before the most recent buyout window, the amount left for the Hawks to pay and thus his cap hit would be higher. So yes, age does definitely impact buyout amounts and cap hits - normally, anyway.
<a href="https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout-faq">https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout-faq</a>
However - and this is a big however - part of negotiations for opening play again made it so the buyout age is based on June 15th. So Maatta's buyout is still $680k because he was still 25 on June 15th. It's why CapFriendly has their buyout calculator defaulting to that date. I didn't know this fact when I wrote my previous comment.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
19 août 2020 à 22 h 31
Sujet:
Next season realistic ish
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Devil1122</b></div><div>Devils decline...is Saad's value really that high??</div></div>
He's extremely underrated defensively, he drives possession, and he's a shot volume player. Pair him with a playmaker who passes well into the slot and he'll score 25-30 (what he was on pace for this season), put up 55 points easy, and be great in the DZ and on the PK.
I wouldn't want the Hawks to lose him personally but I could see him being a great winger for Hughes to setup and help with the physicality of the game. Hughes is often compared to Kane and Saad-Kane have great chemistry. See 2014 Kings playoff series or 2015 Lightning playoff series for some of their best highlights.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
19 août 2020 à 22 h 27
Sujet:
Next season realistic ish
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>ChiHawk</b></div><div>Move De Haan and keep Maatta. Maatta's contract is obviously less, the buyout is friendly, he's much younger, and looked great following the break. He's turning 26 in a few days, the kid hasn't even peaked yet. De Haan has obviously going on 30. Moving Strome for a first line LHD would be huge for us; the question is who?</div></div>
Is a $1.36m cap hit for 4 years really that friendly? Because Maatta turns 26 in a few days which ups his buyout cap hit unfortunately. I personally liked Maatta but the buyout option is less favorable now than before.
I don't think Strome pulls in a 1LD due to his history away from Debrincat or Kane. There would have additions to get anyone halfway decent or it'd be a reclamation project like Strome was himself. Are any teams with excess d-men looking for an offensive 2/3C?
Forum:
Armchair-GM
8 juill. 2020 à 23 h 51
Sujet:
We dont need to trade buyout LTIR at all
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>Halla</b></div><div>strome isnt taking 3.5 thats just silly. He can point to Kerfoot (3.5x3) coming off 43 and 42pt seasons and say he wants significantly more based on 57pts last year and a 50+pt pace this year.
4.5-5 per
Kubalik as well. why would he take 3.25 coming off a 30g in 68 game season? The only reasonable deal here is crawford if he gives a hometown discount. Hawks need to clear 3-4 at min</div></div>
Tbf Strome doesn't have arbitration rights, so comparisons to other players isn't going to be as strict - the Hawks have all the power unless Strome wants to sit the season out. Bowman just needs to hold out if need be, like the Lightning have done for a few guys now. I mean, if Kucherov will take a $4.7x3 year deal after a two 65+ seasons, then the Hawks can press Strome into taking a lower bridge deal, esp since he's only got a about a season and ahlf worth of games played at higher production.
Kubalik is arbitration eligible but his lack of games played is going to hurt his argument. Great production but it's not been proven it's consistent.
Idk about exact amounts (maybe closer to 4 each) or years but a short bridge seems beneficial to for both team and players imo - ride out the flat cap years, keep producing with the team they know works, and then max out their next contract when there's going to be more money available. Players who unfortunately had to sign long term close to the lockout did get jipped on some money.
It'll be interesting to see what happens! I generally like Bowman as a GM but he hasn't been great when it comes to signing guys to second deals.
Forum:
Armchair-GM
16 juin 2019 à 14 h 26
Sujet:
Hawks and habs
<div class="quote"><div class="quote_t">Quoting: <b>capsin9</b></div><div>Bura (24) 12g 13a 25 points 76 games (.33ppg)
Perlini(23). 14 g 7a 21 points 68 games (.31ppg)
Cagg (24) 12g 11a 23 points 55 games (.42ppg)
Boyd(25) 5g 15a 20 points 54 games (.37ppg) 4th minutes
I mean they all seem to be similar players. Bura actually was more productive and caggs is slightly more productive than boyd. (Played top line minutes)
bura is going to be more $$ but hawks can’t possibly use him worse than the caps. They had him playing 4th line minutes</div></div>
Perlini was .33 PPG on the Hawks and nearly .7 PPG when he was finally given a 3rd line 6 role instead of on the 4th. Maybe Burka could too but the price difference for the Hawks won't work - they'll want a younger player at half the cost if all else is even.
As for Caggiula, he had a .46 PPG with the Hawks and honestly it was hard to find players who worked well with Toews last season consistently, so I'm just not sure they'd be willing to mess with that. It wasn't really about the points, but about how he was able to do a lot of dirty work down low and in front of the net soToews did not have to do it. Caggiula has now proven to compliment high end players on two teams, even if he himself isn't producing a ton of points, whereas Boyd hasn't. So Idk why the Hawks would give up the proven to work with their guys and younger Caggiula. It doesn't make sense from their perspective.
Like I totally get why you'd think they'd be good swaps on paper but when you get down to the Hawks not wanting to pay more for slightly older players that they don't know will even work as well, it's not going to work.
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