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What price to Pinto

Créé par: LauzonJessy
Équipe: 2023-24 Canadiens de Montréal
Date de création initiale: 17 sept. 2023
Publié: 17 sept. 2023
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
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  1. Pinto, Shane [Droits de RFA]
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17 sept. 2023 à 23 h 44
#1
Al-Tintin1122
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Too much
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18 sept. 2023 à 0 h 50
#2
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Likely Dach.

Young 2/3C for young 2/3C. Both had similar points last year.
18 sept. 2023 à 1 h 12
#3
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Quoting: AnonymousSensFan
Likely Dach.

Young 2/3C for young 2/3C. Both had similar points last year.


Dach had .66 points per game played, while Pinto had .43
That's a significant downgrade for Montreal.
18 sept. 2023 à 1 h 13
#4
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Modifié 18 sept. 2023 à 1 h 49
Quoting: HabsCanucks
Dach had .66 points per game played, while Pinto had .43
That's a significant downgrade for Montreal.


Dach is more injury prone

Edit to add:

OP asked for price. Not value. But the cost has to be an overpay. Sens have a need for Pinto. They don't want to trade him. They need to win this year for the GM and coach to keep their job. Not only this year, but in November, where they usually faulter. A package of Dvorak, or prospects who may or may not be ready, or draft picks, does nothing to help them win in November. They aren't trading Pinto without remaining as good or getting better. So yeah, Pinto will likely cost a roster player that fills a similar role, with probably extra value.

Cost of acquisition does not always equal actual value. Was KK a 6M player when he was acquired? No, but that's what Carolina had to pay (along with some picks), to get him. Want a player that's not being shopped, then make an offer that won't get the GM fired.
18 sept. 2023 à 2 h 45
#5
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Quoting: HabsCanucks
Dach had .66 points per game played, while Pinto had .43
That's a significant downgrade for Montreal.


And comparing the points production for a guy playing on the top line in MTL (on the wing) and presumably PP1 to a guy playing 3rd line in Ottawa with maybe PP2 time and definitely PK time is fair because........?
18 sept. 2023 à 4 h 27
#6
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Quoting: AnonymousSensFan
Dach is more injury prone

Edit to add:

OP asked for price. Not value. But the cost has to be an overpay. Sens have a need for Pinto. They don't want to trade him. They need to win this year for the GM and coach to keep their job. Not only this year, but in November, where they usually faulter. A package of Dvorak, or prospects who may or may not be ready, or draft picks, does nothing to help them win in November. They aren't trading Pinto without remaining as good or getting better. So yeah, Pinto will likely cost a roster player that fills a similar role, with probably extra value.

Cost of acquisition does not always equal actual value. Was KK a 6M player when he was acquired? No, but that's what Carolina had to pay (along with some picks), to get him. Want a player that's not being shopped, then make an offer that won't get the GM fired.


I would rather bet on Dach playing close to a full season than on Pinto closing the points production gap between him and Dach. Plus Dach is a better defensively and better at driving play than Pinto. As you yourself acknowledge, Dach would be an overpay.

The main problem with it from Montreal's perspective isn't that it's an overpay though; it's that it's an overpay that swaps two of the same kind of assets. The whole point of acquiring Pinto would be to add another promising young player in the same cohort as Caufield, Dach, and Newhook. If we were sending one of them back in return, Pinto would have to be a clear upgrade on them, which he isn't in the case of Dach.


Montreal would have to be sending a package of assets that are not in the same category as Pinto (some mix of picks, prospects, older players, and taking on unwanted contracts from Ottawa) in order for a deal to make any sense.
18 sept. 2023 à 4 h 43
#7
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Quoting: GiggywithGibby
And comparing the points production for a guy playing on the top line in MTL (on the wing) and presumably PP1 to a guy playing 3rd line in Ottawa with maybe PP2 time and definitely PK time is fair because........?


... I was responding to a post that specifically compared them in terms of points production.

Dach has higher production on a per game basis even when ignoring power play points.

Dach is also a better overall player than Pinto.
18 sept. 2023 à 8 h 14
#8
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Quoting: GiggywithGibby
And comparing the points production for a guy playing on the top line in MTL (on the wing) and presumably PP1 to a guy playing 3rd line in Ottawa with maybe PP2 time and definitely PK time is fair because........?


Pinto was second line center and PP2 all last year due to Norris's injury. Playing with a better duo ( Debrincat and Batherson) than Dach was playing with since Caulfield was injured for half the year. Pinto was also a negative -21 on a far better team than Dach was on and playing against 2nd pairings and easier competition. I'm a Sens fan, and I like Pinto, but I am taking Dach over him any day and both managements would do the same.
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18 sept. 2023 à 8 h 44
#9
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Quoting: GiggywithGibby
And comparing the points production for a guy playing on the top line in MTL (on the wing) and presumably PP1 to a guy playing 3rd line in Ottawa with maybe PP2 time and definitely PK time is fair because........?


Dach had the same amount of 5v5 points as matt martin lol
18 sept. 2023 à 9 h 33
#10
Al-Tintin1122
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Quoting: Echlz
Pinto was second line center and PP2 all last year due to Norris's injury. Playing with a better duo ( Debrincat and Batherson) than Dach was playing with since Caulfield was injured for half the year. Pinto was also a negative -21 on a far better team than Dach was on and playing against 2nd pairings and easier competition. I'm a Sens fan, and I like Pinto, but I am taking Dach over him any day and both managements would do the same.


If you were a Sens fan, you wouldn’t be using those arguments? You really using the fact that he was -21? Lol his wingers were terrible and couldn’t defend and he still came out of it with very solid defence. .
18 sept. 2023 à 9 h 38
#11
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If Sens would be trading Pinto without also moving Joseph's cap I think they'd be most interested in one of the Habs's 2nd tier forward prospects.
One of Roy, Beck or Farrell would make some sense in my opinion.
18 sept. 2023 à 10 h 12
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Quoting: AlTintin1122
If you were a Sens fan, you wouldn’t be using those arguments? You really using the fact that he was -21? Lol his wingers were terrible and couldn’t defend and he still came out of it with very solid defence. .


I can be a Sens fan and have common sense. Dach is a far better player and its honestly idiotic this argument is happening in the first place. Now youre saying that Batherson and Debrincat are terrible wingers...? Like c'mon here lol. Better than Montreal has to offer.
18 sept. 2023 à 10 h 26
#13
Al-Tintin1122
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Quoting: Tintin
If Sens would be trading Pinto without also moving Joseph's cap I think they'd be most interested in one of the Habs's 2nd tier forward prospects.
One of Roy, Beck or Farrell would make some sense in my opinion.


For Pinto? Lol those guys don’t come close
18 sept. 2023 à 10 h 55
#14
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Quoting: AlTintin1122
For Pinto? Lol those guys don’t come close

They are all legit prospects and would be among the top 3 in the Sens prospect pool (that alone is not saying very much however).
But the thing is that if the Sens are only moving Pinto and not Joseph's cap also they aren't gonna get a very good return for Pinto given the cap-bind Dorion put himself in.
And other than RHP I don't think there's anything on this Habs roster that'd make sense for Ottawa to want in return for Pinto, again given the cap issues, and I'm not sure the Habs are moving RHP at all.

I'm not sure what you and OP expect to happen with Pinto but if he does get traded you best get prepared for an underwhelming return whenever that does go down.
Dumping Joseph's cap should be Dorion's priority right now and not looking into trading Pinto anyways.
18 sept. 2023 à 11 h 3
#15
Al-Tintin1122
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Quoting: Tintin
They are all legit prospects and would be among the top 3 in the Sens prospect pool (that alone is not saying very much however).
But the thing is that if the Sens are only moving Pinto and not Joseph's cap also they aren't gonna get a very good return for Pinto given the cap-bind Dorion put himself in.
And other than RHP I don't think there's anything on this Habs roster that'd make sense for Ottawa to want in return for Pinto, again given the cap issues, and I'm not sure the Habs are moving RHP at all.

I'm not sure what you and OP expect to happen with Pinto but if he does get traded you best get prepared for an underwhelming return whenever that does go down.
Dumping Joseph's cap should be Dorion's priority right now and not looking into trading Pinto anyways.


I’d rather keep Joseph he’s not a cap dump and will rebound. They’re not moving Pinto without legit pieces coming back. That’s like moving Mercer for plugs lol
18 sept. 2023 à 11 h 4
#16
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Quoting: AlTintin1122
I’d rather keep Joseph he’s not a cap dump and will rebound. They’re not moving Pinto without legit pieces coming back. That’s like moving Mercer for plugs lol

Ain't no way you're comparing Pinto to Mercer though that's a checkmark take if I've ever seen one.
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18 sept. 2023 à 11 h 46
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Quoting: Tintin
Ain't no way you're comparing Pinto to Mercer though that's a checkmark take if I've ever seen one.


don't bother wasting your time arguing with the guy, he is delusional. Thinks Pinto is the next coming of Christ apparently lol.
18 sept. 2023 à 19 h 5
#18
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Quoting: Tintin
If Sens would be trading Pinto without also moving Joseph's cap I think they'd be most interested in one of the Habs's 2nd tier forward prospects.
One of Roy, Beck or Farrell would make some sense in my opinion.

No to Farell but Roy or Beck interest me. Would need a bit more though

Well, that's IF I was looking to trade Pinto which I am not.

Quoting: Echlz
I can be a Sens fan and have common sense. Dach is a far better player and its honestly idiotic this argument is happening in the first place. Now youre saying that Batherson and Debrincat are terrible wingers...? Like c'mon here lol. Better than Montreal has to offer.

Yes last year (Pinto rookie season) but in the future? While he's also young, Dach has much more NHL experience

It's about what they're going to be in the future and this is yet TBD

Quoting: Tintin
They are all legit prospects and would be among the top 3 in the Sens prospect pool (that alone is not saying very much however).

Greig
Roy
Kleven

Ostapchuk, Beck, Jarventie before Farrell

Quoting: Tintin
I'm not sure what you and OP expect to happen with Pinto but if he does get traded you best get prepared for an underwhelming return whenever that does go down.
Dumping Joseph's cap should be Dorion's priority right now and not looking into trading Pinto anyways.

Trade Kubalik for a pick, sign Pinto for 1 year (can sign a long term extension in 3 months)

Quoting: Tintin
Ain't no way you're comparing Pinto to Mercer though that's a checkmark take if I've ever seen one.

I didn't read this as a direct comparison at all. More like it would be the same thing as trading "good player X" for plugs
 
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