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To MTL and WPG Fans

Créé par: arafay
Équipe: 2023-24 Jets de Winnipeg
Date de création initiale: 31 mai 2023
Publié: 31 mai 2023
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
Description
For all who need to hear this, MTL and Winnipeg fans alike.

MTL fans:
1. your leverage is only if Dubois is ONLY willing to sign long term in MTL. There is no single statement anywhere that suggests this is the case. Dubois has called much of the rumours “fake news” when asked about them. And his agent said what he said in a speculative manner when asked directly about mtl. MTL has no leverage if he is willing to sign elsewhere.

Now, I’m going to assume that he’s only willing to sign in MTL for the sake of argument.

MTL Fans: Your leverage starts once you beat the other 30 teams in the league. Regardless of if he’s willing to sign long term or not, teams will be willing to pay a rental price for dubois. That means a 1st, decent roster player, and a high end prospect. And you, as MTL, have to beat that offer for the jets to consider your offer. Your leverage in this case comes in beyond that. If Dubois is only going to sign in MTL, you only have to pay a rental price for him, not a long term dubois you would be getting.

WPG Fans: Unless you are adding something significant in addition, MTL isn’t moving 5 oa, just stop, it’s embarrassing. If Dubois was coming with a long term extension and he was also willing to sign elsewhere, you may have a case for 5 oa. But even then, I think MTL moves on for the price and keeps what they have.


My thoughts: MTL definitely has leverage, but not nearly as much as their fans think. With the above being true (and it unarguably is), I think Dubois has a short list of teams he’s willing to sign an extension with. MTL is definitely on that list. But I also think a team like LA or NYR might be as well. It will be a small list because I think Dubois wants to be in a big market and also wants to go to a winning team, but the list is there. So yes, you have some leverage being one of the only teams he’s willing to sign long term with, but you aren’t the only one in my opinion. Is Dach reasonable? I think it depends on what MTL thinks of him and Dubois. If they think Dach will never get to the point dubois is already at (which is my opinion), I think they would be open to including him in a deal. Otherwise, I think the jets need to look at a different guy like Barron. This is what I think happens. Just my opinion based on the above. (Similar to the Trouba trade)
Transactions
WPG
  1. Dach, Kirby
  2. Choix de 1e ronde en 2023 (FLA)
MTL
  1. Dubois, Pierre-Luc [Droits de RFA]
Repêchage1e ronde2e ronde3e ronde4e ronde5e ronde6e ronde7e ronde
2023
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TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS Info-bulleBONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
1683 500 000 $66 420 358 $0 $1 150 000 $17 079 642 $
Ailier gaucheCentreAilier droit
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7 142 857 $7 142 857 $
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UFA - 3
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6 125 000 $6 125 000 $
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NMC
UFA - 1
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800 000 $800 000 $ (Bonis de performance300 000 $$300K)
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NTC
UFA - 1
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4 000 000 $4 000 000 $
AG, AD
UFA - 1
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3 362 500 $3 362 500 $
C, AD
RFA - 3
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6 000 000 $6 000 000 $
AD, AG
M-NTC
UFA - 2
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775 000 $775 000 $
AG, C
RFA - 1
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3 250 000 $3 250 000 $
C
M-NTC
UFA - 3
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2 166 667 $2 166 667 $
AD
UFA - 2
Défenseur gaucherDéfenseur droitierGardien de but
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6 250 000 $6 250 000 $
DG
NMC
UFA - 5
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5 875 000 $5 875 000 $
DD
M-NTC
UFA - 2
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6 166 667 $6 166 667 $
G
NMC
UFA - 1
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5 950 000 $5 950 000 $
DG/DD
M-NTC
UFA - 2
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3 000 000 $3 000 000 $
DD
M-NTC
UFA - 1
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3 900 000 $3 900 000 $
DG
UFA - 1
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762 500 $762 500 $
DG
RFA - 1
Laissés de côtéListe des blessés (IR)Liste des blessés à long terme (LTIR)
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894 167 $894 167 $ (Bonis de performance850 000 $$850K)
AG, C
RFA - 1

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31 mai 2023 à 18 h 28
#26
HuGo is a Boss GM
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Quoting: Billy739
Caufield-Suzuki-Dach was our first legit top line in 20+ years and point per game players.
Dach's ability to break into the OZ even in traffic is what will lead to his success in the future.


He improved a lot from start to end of last year. At the beginning he was timid, but by the end he was feeling confident. He was entering the zone, protecting the puck, absorbing hits, throwing hits, standing in the blue paint and even attacking the net carrying the puck. Don't get me wrong PLD does those things as well, but I am not trading Dach to get a similar player who costs 5M more per season. I want Both on this team!
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31 mai 2023 à 18 h 40
#27
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Arrrgggg! Le rage! Dubois is a worthless player we should get for free! Also we want him really bad!
-montreal fans
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31 mai 2023 à 18 h 46
#28
MisstheWhalers
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Quoting: Birtle34
Could the jets not qualify then retain half and throw a 3 million Dubois on the open market?


Sure but is the smallest market team in the league retaining for a whole season?

Really how much more or better do they get for him if they do that?

And if it's after the draft it turns into a 2024 1st with a bunch of conditions on it and whatever other pieces which probably won't be any or much better then what I suggested so whats the difference. Obviously I hope to be wrong and would prefer they get a haul for PLD but I just don't think its happening.
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31 mai 2023 à 18 h 47
#29
Syd Barret
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Quoting: habitantlecolon
we are not going to rip him, he has the right to claim an opinion but we won't move Dach in such move.


What do you think the trade value of a 1st line center in his prime is then?
Do you remember how Buffalo had "no leverage" at all with Eichel ? Yet got a great return?
another similar example ( dated but eerily similar ) when jordan staal forced a trade out of pittsburgh. It was well documented that he only would sign in carolina. The penguins offered him the exact contract he took with carolina but he publicly turned it down in Pittsburgh. yet even with no leverage they still got an 8th overall pick. A top defenseman prospect. and a direct replacement to staal (Brandon Sutter).
MTL fans are full of it when they act like they can get a top line player without giving up any decent assets.
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31 mai 2023 à 18 h 51
#30
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Just my 2 cents but if Winnipeg is trading PLD to a contender at the trade deadline than:
1) The 1st round pick Winnipeg gets wont be much better than the Florida pick this year
2) No contender is giving up a good roster player while going for a playoff push
3) Winnipeg will either have to take back a bad contract or retain on PLD because a contender will be close to the cap ceiling
4) The trade will probably look something like the Timo Meier trade

If Winnipeg want to get maximum return for PLD they need to trade him before the season starts
AND
Give the team they are trading him to a chance to negotiate a contract extension with him before hand

Personally I hope Montreal stays out of any negotiations for PLD
1) We are not winning anything next season so why bother
2) If he actually wants to play for Montreal he will sign with us after the 2023-24 season
Otherwise he can go play wherever he wants, NO BIG DEAL!

If we draft Will Smith at this draft we won't need PLD anyways
By 2025 we will have Suzuki-Smith-Dach down the middle, no room for PLD there unless we convert PLD or Dach to the wing
Also signing PLD as a UFA will throw our cap situation out of whack too (see Toronto with Tavares)

The only way I would want the Habs to trade for PLD is if we take Reinbacher with the 5th OA pick
So trading the 5th OA or Dach for PLD are both non options IMO
For me a PLD trade would look like the Florida pick plus 2 good prospects (maybe Beck and Harris) or NOTHING
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31 mai 2023 à 19 h 0
#31
SK
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I still say... TRADE DUBOIS to PHA. He wants to be a *BLEEP* and screw the Jets chance at getting a decent return, the BLEEP him. Send him to PHA to play under Torts. I mean "GIVE HIM TO THEM". Let it go, move on. Sign other players in Free Agency, start the rebuild and MOVE ON.

This whole... MTL is getting PLD for free or very little is tiring. The HABS fans with class on this thread and elsewhere can't respect what PLD is doing and saying. He's a brat. He pulled similar in junior, with CBJ and now in WPG.

Why would such a Legendary franchise even want a guy like PLD. If Habs fans were honest, they would say... a brat like that doesn't match our franchise.

You think PLD won't pull something like this again? What if he struggles in MTL or gets hurt, etc... etc... he may act up there as well. Just because he wants to play in MTL, doesn't mean he will or won't act up.

This is the kind of opportunity for the league to step up and make an example of the brat.

This is almost... I say almost as bad as baby Lindros years ago. How did that work out for him. Quebec became Colorado and won the Cup.

WPG... let him go to PHA. Then MTL... wait till he comes crying and offer him $100.

The league should make an example out of him.

They won't, but MTL could set an example for the league and show that players aren't in charge.

Do I think players should be able to sign where they want. BLEEP YA!!! That's their right. But... with all the NMC's and shortlists on what teams they will go to, etc... etc... the players have too much control..

Would I be thinking the opposite if a player was in MTL but wanted to come home to WPG. Maybe. But, I would still think it lacks class and a hockey trade should happen.

Do you know who is in the driver's seat here. NOT PLD. It's MTL.

He's basically flat out said... MTL or nothing.

Okay MTL, sign him for $100. See how he likes that.

smile
31 mai 2023 à 19 h 2
#32
SK
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Quoting: corson
...The only way I would want the Habs to trade for PLD is if we take Reinbacher with the 5th OA pick...


Agreed with pretty much everything you said... especially this. I have Reinbacher at 5.
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31 mai 2023 à 19 h 3
#33
Le patriote
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Quoting: pensburgh571
What do you think the trade value of a 1st line center in his prime is then?
Do you remember how Buffalo had "no leverage" at all with Eichel ? Yet got a great return?
another similar example ( dated but eerily similar ) when jordan staal forced a trade out of pittsburgh. It was well documented that he only would sign in carolina. The penguins offered him the exact contract he took with carolina but he publicly turned it down in Pittsburgh. yet even with no leverage they still got an 8th overall pick. A top defenseman prospect. and a direct replacement to staal (Brandon Sutter).
MTL fans are full of it when they act like they can get a top line player without giving up any decent assets.


if Florida 1st, Dvorak and Kidney are not asset then we won't move. We are not in win mode like Carolina or Vegas were.
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31 mai 2023 à 19 h 13
#34
Billy739
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Quoting: Birtle34
Could the jets not qualify then retain half and throw a 3 million Dubois on the open market?


Nope
CBA protects players from teams doing that.
Its why teams do "Sign and Trade" deals
31 mai 2023 à 19 h 15
#35
SK
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Quoting: habitantlecolon
if Florida 1st, Dvorak and Kidney are not asset then we won't move. We are not in win mode like Carolina or Vegas were.


If I were WPG's MGMT, I would take that offer. Better all that than nothing. I think Ridley could be good and a 1st in any spot in this draft could be good.

But... CHEVYTAKESTOOMANYDAYSOFF will probably mess up and try and get Suzuki again and Kent will tell him to bleep his hat... again.
31 mai 2023 à 19 h 16
#36
Syd Barret
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Quoting: habitantlecolon
if Florida 1st, Dvorak and Kidney are not asset then we won't move. We are not in win mode like Carolina or Vegas were.


Carolina was one of the worst teams in the league at the time of the trade … hence the 8th overall pick lol.
31 mai 2023 à 19 h 26
#37
Billy739
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Quoting: DumplingAndChase
Arrrgggg! Le rage! Dubois is a worthless player we should get for free! Also we want him really bad!
-montreal fans


His Value isnt in Question
Your Gm's Competency is.
He's backed himself into a corner.

If he doesnt sign PLD before July1st
What you'll see is someone OS him
Odds are WPG will match and be unable to trade him for 365 days

Bergavin put himself in the same position and lost months before he was fired
Unlike PLD we didnt have a multi year heads up that he wanted out to prepare
So if Chevy blunders this one he's fired 100%
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31 mai 2023 à 19 h 29
#38
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Quoting: Billy739
July 1st:
Any Team OS's PLD and WPG Matches
End of their return ability with PLD as CBA states he cant be traded for 365 days or July 1st 2024 at which point he'll be a UFA after his 7th seasons.

Our Leverage is our ability to screw you, plain and simple.
You Match , We Win
You Dont Match, We Win


an unprotected first round might not end up being a win when we are rebuilding
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31 mai 2023 à 19 h 33
#39
Le patriote
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Quoting: pensburgh571
Carolina was one of the worst teams in the league at the time of the trade … hence the 8th overall pick lol.


you're right with that correction. But at that draft what was the top 10?!!
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31 mai 2023 à 19 h 40
#40
Billy739
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Quoting: pensburgh571
What do you think the trade value of a 1st line center in his prime is then?
Do you remember how Buffalo had "no leverage" at all with Eichel ? Yet got a great return?
another similar example ( dated but eerily similar ) when jordan staal forced a trade out of pittsburgh. It was well documented that he only would sign in carolina. The penguins offered him the exact contract he took with carolina but he publicly turned it down in Pittsburgh. yet even with no leverage they still got an 8th overall pick. A top defenseman prospect. and a direct replacement to staal (Brandon Sutter).
MTL fans are full of it when they act like they can get a top line player without giving up any decent assets.


In normal circumstances? A Lot
In these circumstances? Not as much
Chevy F'd himself into a Corner just like Bergavin
Bergy gambled and lost then months later was fired for it.

Dubois is 6 years pro going into his 7th year after which he's a UFA.
IF WPG matches an OS the CBA's No Trade kicks in for 1 year .
IF WPG doesnt they get a 1st and a 3rd from a Contender maybe
I mean your best result would be OTT in a deal for Debrincat but they wont give up a first while swapping 1st line players as they dont need Centers that bad or at all really.

The ball is 100% in PLD court and he told Chevy for years this is how it was and he didnt listen.
Same thing can be said about Chevy ignoring Hellebyuck saying he's not interested in resigning for a Rebuild at his age.
Regardless of which way you slice it , even if PLD miraculously stayed WPG cant just resign Wheeler and Schiefele continuing the same losing ways.
If WPG was smart they'd fire Chevy before the draft so he doesnt do any real damage on his way out.
If he could rebuild this team he woulda started by now, he was really relying on PLD becoming the Heir to the Throne
31 mai 2023 à 19 h 53
#41
Billy739
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Quoting: drambui
an unprotected first round might not end up being a win when we are rebuilding


MTL has gotten a 1st OA pick once since the 1980's
I dont even remember our last 2nd OA pick
3rd OA at best is where we usually end up in terms of top 3 picks
Overall we dont get a lot of top 5 picks its usually later in the top 10 or into the early teens

Why?
We've never been injured enough to suck so bad we're last in the NHL
Atleast not since 1910 and 1926 as we always do just well enough to F ourselves into a 5th-15th OA pick
The fact that we hit bottom of the league once in the past 100 years should speak volumes about this fact and its authenticity.
IF not just look at our 5th OA pick as evidence.

But with a Healthy Caufield returning its a big boost.
Slafkovsky is looking to prove something and Owen Beck will be pushing for a roster spot again after being one of the final 2 cuts with Mesar.
RHP and Ylonen have this year before the kids push them out as Hughes guys and Bergavins picks are turning Pro at the same times (Hughes are overachievers , even the 5th round pick)

I'd say 8th OA most likely
Feels similar to 2016 with our young players rising in Gally and Danault , new defensive additions to bolster our blueline and uncertainty over injuries with Goaltending though.
Could be later though if Monty continues his Growth into next year
31 mai 2023 à 20 h 9
#42
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Quoting: Billy739
His Value isnt in Question
Your Gm's Competency is.
He's backed himself into a corner.

If he doesnt sign PLD before July1st
What you'll see is someone OS him
Odds are WPG will match and be unable to trade him for 365 days

Bergavin put himself in the same position and lost months before he was fired
Unlike PLD we didnt have a multi year heads up that he wanted out to prepare
So if Chevy blunders this one he's fired 100%


Chevy has set himself up for a bidding war between the best teams. Dubois will be traded at or just before the draft to whichever contender offers the most. Habs fans pretend that they are the only team that can make a trade.
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31 mai 2023 à 20 h 15
#43
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Quoting: Billy739
MTL has gotten a 1st OA pick once since the 1980's
I dont even remember our last 2nd OA pick
3rd OA at best is where we usually end up in terms of top 3 picks
Overall we dont get a lot of top 5 picks its usually later in the top 10 or into the early teens

Why?
We've never been injured enough to suck so bad we're last in the NHL
Atleast not since 1910 and 1926 as we always do just well enough to F ourselves into a 5th-15th OA pick
The fact that we hit bottom of the league once in the past 100 years should speak volumes about this fact and its authenticity.
IF not just look at our 5th OA pick as evidence.

But with a Healthy Caufield returning its a big boost.
Slafkovsky is looking to prove something and Owen Beck will be pushing for a roster spot again after being one of the final 2 cuts with Mesar.
RHP and Ylonen have this year before the kids push them out as Hughes guys and Bergavins picks are turning Pro at the same times (Hughes are overachievers , even the 5th round pick)

I'd say 8th OA most likely
Feels similar to 2016 with our young players rising in Gally and Danault , new defensive additions to bolster our blueline and uncertainty over injuries with Goaltending though.
Could be later though if Monty continues his Growth into next year


so you would trade 8th overall for PLD? and about 7% of winning either #1 or 2 pick?
31 mai 2023 à 20 h 17
#44
Syd Barret
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Quoting: habitantlecolon
you're right with that correction. But at that draft what was the top 10?!!


How exactly is that even remotely relevant? the trade offered in this post isn't even for a top pick lmao
Its for a young, middle six player and a very late 1st round pick?
You are completely dodging my point that he has a lot of value. and history has shown that time and time again. regardless of what MTL fans on this website can type up.
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31 mai 2023 à 20 h 32
#45
I Love J Boqvist
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Quoting: jonh514
He improved a lot from start to end of last year. At the beginning he was timid, but by the end he was feeling confident. He was entering the zone, protecting the puck, absorbing hits, throwing hits, standing in the blue paint and even attacking the net carrying the puck. Don't get me wrong PLD does those things as well, but I am not trading Dach to get a similar player who costs 5M more per season. I want Both on this team!


Dach had a worse points/60 than ryan reaves 5 on 5 (289th/385 qualifying players)
31 mai 2023 à 20 h 33
#46
Le patriote
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Quoting: pensburgh571
How exactly is that even remotely relevant? the trade offered in this post isn't even for a top pick lmao
Its for a young, middle six player and a very late 1st round pick?
You are completely dodging my point that he has a lot of value. and history has shown that time and time again. regardless of what MTL fans on this website can type up.


the worst draft in 20 yrs cannot be compared to one if not the best in 20 yrs wink !! a 1st rounder that is no longer in the league + a 3rd-4th liner career high + top4 d vs a 2nd line center ... that's how we look at the trade today. Nowodays Staal value would be less than what Horvat got .... not what Meier got !!
31 mai 2023 à 20 h 34
#47
Le patriote
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Quoting: dgibb10
Dach had a worse points/60 than ryan reaves 5 on 5 (289th/385 qualifying players)


SO why would Jets like him so much?
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31 mai 2023 à 20 h 37
#48
I Love J Boqvist
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Quoting: habitantlecolon
SO why would Jets like him so much?


Don't know. I don't think he's anything special. But he has size and draft pedigree. Hasn't really improved his 5 on 5 production since his rookie year (which was his best outside of a 18 game 2019 sample size)
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31 mai 2023 à 20 h 40
#49
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Quoting: Caufield
Maybe, but right now, the public situation is that PLD is most likely only looking at MTL, decreasing the value a lot. Dach is worth more than he was traded for, which was 13th OA. He is probably worth 10th in this year's draft. Dach is also far from finishing his growth, and 38 points are in only 58 games, which is way different than 38 points in 82 games. There is absolutely no reason for Dach's potential to not be at 70 points. Dach's contract is good. There are a lot of legitimate reasons why Dach is a better trade asset than PLD


Why exactly is dach worth more than he was traded for? He still hasn't matched his 5 on 5 production from his rookie year
31 mai 2023 à 21 h 11
#50
HuGo is a Boss GM
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Quoting: dgibb10
Dach had a worse points/60 than ryan reaves 5 on 5 (289th/385 qualifying players)


Great! He's a terrible horrible player and he's all ours! Keep watching those stats and interpreting them as predictive sir!
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