Jarry isn’t taking a one year deal

If Jarry takes that deal it's basically the sign of the apocalypse

We just cannot go into another season with Jarry and Desmith as the goalie tandem

Not a lot of great alternatives

Since Jarry/Desmith has been the tandem the Pens are 9th in save %. Seems fine to me - would be open to upgrading but not sure what upgrades there are out there.

Every season this tandem has let us down. How can we extend Jarry with how he's played? Will turn into an awful contract and is extremely risky. Hasn't proven himself at all. Would rather get a 1a 1b tandem. I mean I think we should rebuild anyways, but if we were contend I'd look at a tandem of maybe Korpisolo/Varlamov. Maybe their ceiling isn't as high as a Jarry/Desmith tandem, but the floor is certainly higher. At their peaks they might not be as good as Jarry, but much much less volatile and could get them both combined (5 mil probably) for the same price Jarry is asking for individually.

I don't think Jarry can command much in terms of a high salary longterm deal, that's why I thought he might take a strategic 1 year deal to command a big deal after a healthy season. I'm game to trade DeSmith and take someone new.

Issue is I don't think Jarry would take that deal. Rumor is he wants 6 x 6. Have to imagine the price has dropped since then, but if it's anywhere even close to that, like more than a year even, I wouldn't do it.

Idk man - Desmith/Jarry are 9th in save% since they've been a tandem - that's far from letting the team down in my opinion. When you say "with how he's played" you act like he's been terrible. He's been arguably a top 10 goalie since he became a starter. Even this year he was borderline top 5 before he got hurt. I think the drastic difference in numbers pre/post injury is pretty good proof that he's not at full health. If it's chronic then yeah I'd look elsewhere, but if it's just a lingering injury from coming back to soon that can heal in the offseason then I don't see a problem re-signing him. But this is something we might never know so it's tough to say. Hasn't proven himself? He has 4 years of proof and two top 7 Vezina finishes. I'm not saying he's the best goalie or without risk, and I'm open to any possible alternatives, but he's not a bum. I'm sure by "let us down" you mean because of injuries - but who's to say Korpisalo/Varlamov don't get injured in their first start here? There's clearly something in the water haha - see Bonino and Kulikov

Korpisolo/Varlamov isn't even an upgrade, so I don't see how they are a 1a 1b upgrade or help us try to contend? Jarry and Varlamov are pretty equal, and Desmith is clearly better than Korpisalo. So the way I see it it's at best it's an equal tandem to what we have now. Maybe you take Varlamov over Jarry? Although he'll be 35. They aren't rebuilding, we know that. Nor should they

Agreed, IMO we shouldn't sign a more than 3 year deal no matter the AVV

He has been terrible since December. Like absolutely awful. His sv% is like .86. That is just awful. Yeah he's had good stretches, but he also has had a lot of bad stretches. The issue is, the bad stretches happen in the most important moments, while the good stretches are usually the start of the season. And yeah any player could get injured at any time. But that's different from being very injury prone and having a history. I don't know what Jarry's injuries are or what is causing him, but we do know he has had big injuries or multiple injuries every season and been out for extended amounts. It's important for goalies to stretch and condition themselves properly or else they will have chronic injuries or injure themselves often. Again, can't say for certain what the issue is there, but we do know he has a history. Is Varlamov and Jarry are close to equal, why not go with the cheaper option who won't have as much term? Varlamov and Korpisolo have both won playoff series and shown up at important times. Jarry and Desmith haven't proven themselves in that regard. Look I see what you are saying and you have completely valid points, I just think its incredibly risky signing Jarry to anything more than a 1 year deal and not upgrading the position in some way or form.

He hasn't been terrible since December though. From December 1st until Jan 22nd(when he got injured) he had a .929 save% - 4th in the league over that stretch. But he has struggled with an .866% since returning from injury. Like I said, if it's some chronic injury that is going to restrict or impact his performance for the rest of his career, I'm fine looking elsewhere. But if it's just a case of returning from injury too soon and not being at 100% - I don't see a better option out there. But like we both said, we don't know right now - and might not ever know the details. And to answer your question, I'm not sure if Varlamov will be that much cheaper. He's making 5mil already - sure his playing time has decreased so maybe you can get him at a slightly lower amount - not sure it would be too much lower though. Varlamov will also be 35 and has played in front of the Islanders too. So with very similar numbers, I think I'm giving the slight edge to Jarry. Korpisalo hasn't won a playoff series.

I'm not saying it's not risky, I get what you're saying and I understand your hesitation. And I'm open to any upgrade - especially if Jarry tries asking for like 6mil or something like that. But the market just doesn't look good this year. I mean outside of Jarry you have Varlamov, Korpisalo, and maybe Hill? I'm not really looking at any of those guys as an outright upgrade on paper.

I thought Korpisolo won in 2019-2020? Anyways though, his save percentage was unreal that year in the playoffs. Another reason I don't think Jarry should come back is I think we should rebuild this offseason. Even if we were trying to contend I wouldn't do it, but I just don't think we will contend or that it is even possible to salvage the damage Hextall did. I would rather rebuild and not sign any long term contracts at all this offseason. So I guess that also contributes to my opinion here.

I guess he kind of did - it's a weird situation. I thought he did too so I went back and looked. Played games 1 and 2 against TOR. Got pulled in game 3 and didn't play game 4, then came back for game 5. So he kind of did, kind of didn't lol - I don't know how to classify it. He did play well though you're right on that. Either way, I don't think playing well in the playoffs 4 years ago gives him any kind of advantage over Jarry.

Yeah lol - I know you want to rebuild. If we didn't just sign 3 core players to long term deals with NMC I would actually entertain that idea haha - but it's pretty obvious based on those signings that they aren't going to do that. Hextall clearly did a ton of damage for sure, but with McGinn and Kapanen gone, and Dumo being a UFA, maybe a new GM might be able to make something out of the team? Idk - I'm just not sure how much of a rebuild you can do when you just signed a bunch of guys to long term deals and seemingly everyone has a NTC or NMC haha. I also don't think they're THAT far from off from being competitive. Let Dumo walk and bring in a coach that would bench Carter and this team improves drastically

Yeah I have really been driving the point home on this site that I think we should rebuild, maybe a little too much lol. I agree Sullivan Hextall and Burke all need to go. The thing is though the core will not play at this level much longer. It's remarkable they're still playing this well, but we all know after age 35 the drop off can happen and it can happen quick. When you have a core at this age I think it's very very important to surround them with youth. That's pretty much the only way they can make a run I think. That's tough to do just through free agency with basically all good players being above 27. It's also tough to do it through trades because we'd have to give up a lot of picks or Guentzel. That I don't think is a good idea because even though we re-signed the core, I think we can both agree that if we 100% go all in they would only be able to contend for 1, maybe 2 more years if they're extremely luck. And even then it is unlikely. To me, it's just so much trouble to go through for at absolute most 2 more years of contending. I know people want to see the core contend, but that will make the rebuild much longer and more brutal. We know at that point that business will be bad and the arena will be almost empty. To me if we can do anything to shorten the rebuild and lessen the down years then I think that should be the priority. If I thought we had a legit path to contend next year my opinion would be different, but I just don't see it personally.

You're good lol - not everyone is one here as much as I am so they might not know. Yeah those 3 need to go - agreed. I've always defended Sullivan and feel guilty since the GM kind of screwed him - but he's still responsible for playing people like Carter/Dumo, switching Rakell around, having terrible special teams, and not being able to adapt to not being faster than every team they play. Sometimes you need to switch things up.

Agreed, it's surprising they're still playing this well, which is what makes this all the more frustrating. They just need acceptable talent around them. And like you said, they could drop off a cliff at any moment. Yeah probably 2 more years after this is fair in my opinion. I don't mind if it extends the rebuild though. I'd rather be competitive for another 2 years and add 2 years to the rebuild than throw in the towel and start rebuilding now. And I don't think they are as far off from competing as people make it out to be. Plus, my issue is how do you even rebuild? Crosby, Malkin, Carter, Rust, Petry, and Letang have NMC and Guentzel, Rakell, Pettersson have NTC. It's not even like they can dump a bunch of guys for good picks or prospects

It would start with trading Guentzel definitely. I believe him Rakell and Pettersson can be traded without permission but have a no trade list of teams. I could be wrong on that, but I know it's not as restrictive. Carter I would just buyout at this point. I know we get no cap relief, but I think it's just better for him not even to be an option for the lineup. Rust and Petry can be traded, Hornqvist was in same boat but waived it. I think a lot of it would come down to whether these players want to stick around for the rebuild. I'd love for Crosby, Malkin, and Letang to stay and mentor the new younger players, but it's really unknown what they'd want to do. I don't think they expected the team to miss the playoffs this year, if we do again next year then do they want out? I hope not, but I think they control their future when it comes to the rebuild. Eventually the question will have to be answered whether they want to stay through the rebuild or go to a contender. If not this summer then I think next summer its for sure a possibility it could come up. I think re-signing them was putting off that question for down the road, as opposed to answering it. Regardless of how much it's put off, it will surface eventually whether it's this summer or a couple of years. My guess is not this summer but next summer. Surely those guys will all be playing for more remaining years than we will be contending.

No - you're right on that. Think it's an 8-12 team list depending on the player. Presumably they put the bad teams on the list - and typically good teams have limited cap space. So it's possible, but not easy. Yeah, any of the NMC guys like Rust and Petry can technically be traded. It's just convincing them to waive, and then also finding a team that wants them, and then also getting a decent enough return. I really don't think those 3 would be happy at all if we rebuilt with all 3 of them here haha. In my opinion since they all signed with NMC's that did answer it - but who knows - I'm just a guy who should be working right now haha. Letang will definitely be playing past contention - Malkin possibly, and Crosby maybe. Probably not on this contract though.

It just seems like a lot of hoops and a lot of variables to go through to try and rebuild. And as difficult as it sounds on paper, it's probably significantly more difficulty to actually do in real life. And I don't think the players, coaching staff, or management/ownership(if they actually follow the team), want to do that or think they need to.

I think there are many different opinions about when we should should rebuild. What I think we can both agree on is that a lot of people on the roster would not be happy if we rebuild. I see building a true contender this offseason as a more difficult task than starting the rebuild so that's where I'm coming from. At this point, it's more just a matter of is it worth it to rebuild knowing it will anger a lot of people on the roster. To me it is. I love all the players, but I think at some point we have to put the needs of the team and what's better for the future first. Like you said it's very complicated, but it would likely have different phases. I think Guentzel being traded would be the start. Then over the next year or so a lot of the other guys with the NMC would want out and would be traded. In that situation, the reality is though, we might not get a ton of value for Malkin and Letang. Crosby I would have the most hope for staying, but he more than anyone has earned the right to decide his fate. I just think we will have to make a tough decision at some point whether next summer the summer after or so on. Players are so emotionally invested in the team and their teammates that's why sometimes in sports you need a manager who can take some of the emotion out of it and just look at what is best for the team. Of course they will think they can contend longer than is realistic, and there's nothing wrong with that, just how any competitor at that level would feel. But it's still not the reality of the situation. So I guess what I'm saying is regardless of when we want to start it, it will get to the point where were just so bad it's undeniable and we are forced too. And I think that will result in a lot of players being unhappy/wanting out. I could see that point coming next year, would not be surprised if we are just completely out of the playoff hunt from the start. Especially if Sully is back (imo Hextall and Burke are gone no matter what)

I don't think anyone would be happy on the roster haha - maybe some AHL guys because they'd get playing time. Understandable - I guess that's just where we disagree though. Personally I think moving half a dozen guys with NMC is more difficult than letting Dumo walk and benching Carter and signing a FA or two. And I don't think this team is that far off from being competitive in the playoffs. Personally I don't think it's worth it. It's not even that I care about angering players, this is a business, they'd understand - the fans wouldn't though haha. I just think you can still have a competitive team with those players on the roster and I don't want to waste Crosby/Malkin/Letangs final years, while they're still playing great too, just to cut like 2 years off of a rebuild. Guentzel would definitely be first - I just think it would be difficult to get those other guys to want out. And like you said, you're not going to get good value for them if they only pick like one team to go to like Kane or something.

Yes - it will definitely get to a point where it's so bad that they are forced to make tough decisions - but I disagree that we are already there. I think that decision comes when Crosby/Malkin/Letang are no longer playing well. Or at least until Crosby is in the final year of his current contract - whichever comes first.

Out from the start? Idk man - this team isn't THAT bad lol. Almost a week ago we were talking about catching the Rangers for 3rd place haha. But I agree, it would help a lot if we had some coaching or management changes - desperately. I guess my point of view is this team can easily be competitive next year - and I would rather watch this team be competitive for 2 more years and then rebuild, as opposed rebuild now and be competitive a couple years sooner. If that makes sense.

I agree with your whole second paragraph, even though I'd prefer to this offseason I don't think it will happen until those guys aren't playing well. But that could happen at any time. It could be next year or a little later, but definitely it will be before their contracts are up. It's tough to say what will happen next season not knowing who the GM or coach will be (probably Sullivan stays coach but Hextall and Burke are fired), but unless we make drastic drastic changes I think we probably will be in a very bad spot next year. I think we would need more drastic changes than letting Dumo walk and benching Carter. Our entire defense and bottom 6 will need to be completely revamped. And the goalie situation will have to be sorted out. Our defense is our biggest problem imo its just way too slow and immobile. Petry, Rutta, Granlund and other tough contracts will have to be dealt. Sabres, Red Wings, Senators will probably make it. Lightning, Leafs, Bruins, Panthers will all be up there. And in the metro surely Rangers, New Jersey, Carolina, Islanders will all be competitive. It just feels like were on the same path as the Caps and will be completely out of it soon.

Exactly. Once you get into your late 30's you can pretty much just lose it at any moment. I think Crosby is just a different breed, so I don't really see that happening to him - but Letang and Malkin who knows. But either way, seems like we agree, a rebuild isn't happening until there's a noticeable decline in their play. I guess it's two separate conversations, a will they rebuild vs a should they rebuild. I'm no on both - and you think they should - but seems like we both agree it's not happening.

And I guess we somewhat disagree on how bad this team really is and how drastic the changes need to be. I don't think they're in that horrible of a spot - and no Dumo/Carter would have this team in a clear playoff spot this season. We've seen first hand that Letang/Pettersson and POJ/Petry is a good top 4 - so I don't think we really need revamping there. Any combo of DOC/Poehling/Archibald/insert another 4th liner here is a solid 4th line too. It's really just the 3rd line that needs fixing imo. Although I do think they need to change the way they play altogether - whether that be Sullivan adapting or bringing in a new coach. And unless Jarry demands a lot of money - I think the goaltending situation is fine with Jarry/Desmith. I didn't like the offseason moves with the defense either, and would rather have the old defense back, but I think Petry has had a very solid season and I have no issues with him. Rutta on the other hand was a completely unnecessary signing and I would dump him if possible. If you bring up Smith to replace Dumo I think you have a pretty mobile defense with Letang/Petry/POJ/Smith.

Not a huge fan of Petry mainly because of how much he makes. I think he's been very average, struggles bad against fast opponents plays fine against the rest. But I don't feel like he adds that much or a net front presence like he was supposed to. If he was 3-4 mil then I'd say keep, but to be the second highest paid player on the team I think is way too much. I'm not a fan of Jarry at all or bringing back that tandem, but don't need to get into that, it's a whole different convo. I think one of the issues here is just there are so many different variables. We've both said what we think will happen, but tbh I think really anything could happen. Who knows what GM they bring in and what his plan would be. Who even knows what ownership is thinking or whether they're even paying attention. It's really impossible for me to say what FSG is thinking right now. Are they going to bring in a GM based on what direction they want to go, or just get someone and give them full control to determine the direction. Whether Sully is back or not is a huge huge variable as well. Sully it seems refuses to adapt to the age of this team. I think it's ridiculous when 2/3 of our D are out he has Ruhwedle and Fedun activating in the last few minutes of the game. Just crazy to me how he refuses to adapt at all. If we get rid of Sully which I think we should then maybe we could get away with this D in a more defensive system for them. If Sully stays then I don't think we make playoffs just based on how bad the D are coached lately and his overall coaching

I'm with you there - not at all a fan of the contract or the money. But if you have to pay or retain to get rid of him, I would much rather just keep him. He's scoring at a 40 point pace and has a 54% xGF - and is the most physical defenseman we have by a wide margin. Yeah I know we've had the goalie tandem convo before haha. I'm open to any upgrades - especially if Jarry's injury is chronic - I just haven't seen any upgrades out there. And don't think these two goalies are anywhere near as bad as people are making them out to be. Yep - a ton of variables and a lot of discussions going on that we will never know the details of. We're all just speculating here - all we can do.