I'd like this for the Canucks in an effort to revamp the D.

Flames are in win now. They would want a current top 6 F

Adding Rutta makes no sense. Good Dman, but Ottawa isn't gonna be able to afford that on the 3rd pair. Can't be running that tight to the cap with one spare.

Also I like the idea of Gaudreau, but there's just no universe he's signing that cheap. The reason I feel comfortable moving Pinto is because I've liked what I've seen out of Greig down the middle so much.

Gaudreau could find himself in an ERod situation where everyone's full on cap by they time they get around to him. I could see him falling to that $ value not because he's not worth more, but because teams will be tight on cap again.

Am I the only one that would rather move Batherson over Pinto AND a 1st?

I wouldn't want to move Hoglander for JBD though. Hoglander has already seen NHL success and is going to be playing in the NHL again; the only reason he hasn't been is due to Vancouver's surplus of forwards, next injury or trade that happens, Hoglander is coming up. Whereas JBD hasn't been able to crack an Ottawa defense that isn't much better than Vancouver's. JBD's value is plummeting the longer he remains in the AHL. JBD is looking more like an Adam Clendening 2.0 than an NHL defenseman. I wouldn't offer more than Bains + 4th for JBD based on his recent performance. I just don't see JBD becoming anything close to his draft projections.

I'd definitely be fine with Batherson in the deal instead. I just think for what you need to replace in the forward group, it's easier to ask Greig to replace Pinto vs Batherson. Ottawa would have more cap space to address the forward group, but they'd be creating a much bigger hole.

Also there's the fact that if CGY really is considering moving him mid season, they probably aren't willing to take a chance on Batherson right now. If it's an off-season move that's different if there's clarity on where Batherson stands

Batherson + Thomson/Guenette for Weegar and Vladar/Ruzicka. Win win

Vladar would be a shrewd add, though I can't imagine CGY would feel great about moving him given Markstrom's season. Idk how they feel about calling Wolf up, though he obviously has been remarkable. Ruzicka would be a godsend in the bottom six, relatively speaking.

Yeah both makes sense and would fit really well within the cap for the Sens . The Sens play Chicago and St Louis next, if they win both imo, they should buy and push for the playoffs . Theyll be at worst like 5pts out if they do with games in hand

Whether Hog can stick is what matters. Our top 6 wingers will be Kuz, Mikheyev, Pod and potentially Boeser/Garland (my guess is the one is moved between now and the draft). Hog rounding out those three isn't inspiring at all (if Boeser and Garland are gone or if Pod can't stick in the top 6). Maybe JBD isn't the right target but another year of light production vs rookie Hog is going to end up with him having even less trade value.

I'm cool with "buying" if it's a Weegar type deal that sets them up long term, but idk about really buying this year. If anything you see if you can make a few trades guys to shuffle around the bottom six. Guys like Motte, Gambrell and Watson out and see if you can find a different mix that works. Talbot is probably the only UFA of real value, and tbh I'd probably still lean towards selling him.

not even chiarelli would be dumb enough to do that CGY trade, weegar is not were need worth one billionth of that, jupiter size overpay by OTT.

Trades

#1- DECLINE, it's not even close. Remove Pinto and the 1st, add Zaitsev and Thomson

#2- Formenton is NOT available. You don't dump him for no value until you know if he can get cleared. No team should also be acquiring him. Think of all the other instances, like the Miller situation in Boston. PR nightmare

#3- Sens would much rather have Joseph than Rutta. They need to go after a much more solid RHD, basically a guy that would help Chabot to play to his strengths or nothing

#4- Who cares about Höglander? Sens need and want JBD a LOT more



Keep ALL of Batherson, Pinto and Greig. Don't want to make the same mistakes as Dorion again and end up with the worst bottom-6 in the league

Tkachuk - Norris - Batherson
Greig - Stutzle - Giroux
?????? - Pinto - Joseph



?????? : could it be Formenton? UFA? Trade? Unfortunately team didn't get sold earlier so Dorion traded both Paul and Brown as we could have had a Paul - Pinto - Brown 3rd line, which would make the top-9 perfect

Use DeBrincat as an asset and re-allocate his AAV to get a Top-4 RHD


A RHD to play with Chabot + Zub and JBD fixes the RD. Top-9 is fixed too. Then you can really see what this team has (with new coaching too, of course)

No chance the Sens are interested. Holding unto his good young players might be the only thing Dorion constantly does well (well, except Zibanejad and Gustavsson lol)



Don't need to move any of that. DeBrincat is the guy who needs to be moved. It was a stupid trade from the start (although the price was good so use him as an asset)



That's not the reality context though. No chance I'm doing JBD for Hoglander, even if you'd add a 2nd



What I don't understand is that Ottawa was not ready to give Pinto for Chychrun but now fans are ok to move him for... Weegar (and his very risky contract)????

Weird

You can't be serious.

JBD is 23 and only has 26 NHL games, his advanced stats in those games are all terrible (despite a majority of offensive zone starts and sheltered minutes) though it is a small sample size. I know he's more of a stay-at-home defenseman, but the guy is much closer to bust than to boom. Most hockey fans would agree that JBD is not worth a 2nd at this point, let alone Hoglander. Many people expected him to be an NHL regular this season and he failed to live up to those expectations. He projects to be a bottom-pairing guy at this point.

Of course, your outsider perspective is much more informed than me or other Sens fans, which makes me/us "not serious"

JBD has turned 22 y/o just before season. He turned pro just about over a year ago... He is a defenseman... Not all of them will be NHL regulars by 22 y/o. PLUS, there has been covid (remember?), so he lost some development time + several injuries so he played 58 AHL + 8 NHL games last season and 21 AHL + 13 NHL games this season. That's actually not a lot of games over 2 years (plus, the first Covid year, even less)

Another factor is there is already 6 D-men on a 1-way contract + Jake Sanderson... JBD played when there was an injury on RD, I don't think the plan for him this season was anything else than that. That said, he was actually establishing himself quite nicely when Zub was injured (the November injury), but then got injured himself.

Finally, The Sens have NOT been rushing any prospect in their system outside of Brady Tkachuk (was already a physical monster at 19) and Tim Stutzle (was already too good for any other league at 19). They took their damn time with pretty much everybody, even Josh Norris even though he was burning the AHL. That's the luxury you have when you are REBUILDING

This uninformed discourse, I heard it so many times... People were telling me the same thing about Erik Brannstrom 1-2 years ago

Actually sorry to say that but the "player X hasn't been able to crack Y defense" argument when that team is rebuilding is not very relevant to be honest.

Fans always overrate the value of their team's players. Nicolas Beaudin, from the same draft and picked directly after Bernard-Decker, was in the same spot in Chicago and was traded for an ECHL player in October.

Covid effected everyone, everyone lost development time, not just JBD. Injuries always play a factor in determining value, you can't use those as an excuse for his failing to make the team.

As for "Player X hasn't been able to crack Y defense" is a very legitimate and relevant argument. If JBD was good enough to make the team, then Dorian would have sat or moved one of those 1-way contracts to make space. JBD didn't force Ottawa's management to make a decision, he didn't even replace Zaitsev when Zaitsev was waived. Ottawa should be turning it around now, not rebuilding. They have the youth, they have the talent. You're not going to have a player good enough for the NHL playing in the AHL, teams clear space for players all the time.

The majority of 1st round selected players make the NHL by the Draft+4 season or they bust; from 2005 to 2015, that is the average. Only a handful of players made it after D+5, less than 5% of players.

As for Brannstrom, they were right. Many people expected Brannstrom to be a Top-4 defenseman, they were right about calling him out for not being in the NHL. Even now, Erik Brannstrom hasn't shown he's more than a bottom-pairing defenseman, he's playing fewer minutes than Zaitsev and Hamonic. The same is likely for JBD.

- The thing is I am far from your regular "fan". I call things like they are. I have underrated or overrated players in the past, that they play for my team or not. Example, I called Mike Hoffman a cup-of-coffee guy at most, I was wrong. I called Andrew Hammond a "flash in the pan" when he had a 20-1-2 record and a 0.941 SV%. I was right. Over time, I have been more and more "right" on projecting hockey players, Sens or not. I made a good chunk of money speculating with hockey cards that way. I was the guy who bought almost every Erik Karlsson rookie card there was. I made a killing once he won his first Norris. Since then I have been playing with much bigger stuff (like real estate)

- I don't disagree here, injuries are not an excuse but IT IS a reason why it might seem like it's taking time for him. He was in the NHL claiming a regular spot and then boom got injured. This was the first time he was older than 21 y/o and playing in the NHL.

- lol no, it's not, it's even stupid when you're not looking at context. You choose to believe it or not and in the end I don't care, but I told you that the Ottawa Senators have not been rushing any prospect for years, for the whole rebuild. Even Drake Batherson was cooked for 2 years in the AHL. Some people had the same usual baseless narrative regarding him, "not cracking the awful Sens team, he's trending as a bust!" and he was a FORWARD who usually take less time than D-men. Been there, done that a million times, now you do whatever you want with it


All the rest you're saying pretty much shows that you have no idea what you're talking about, but of course, you know MORE than Sens fans. Another typical trait of the casual fan. Nothing to add.

Lmao, are you really trying to gatekeep hockey? No one cares about your hockey backstory or your previous predictions. Your ego is outrageously large, dude. Chill out.

It's fine if the Senators want to let JBD simmer in the AHL for a bit, but the problem is he's nowhere near the level that Batherson or Norris were playing at when they were in the minors. JBD isn't the first call-up like those two were, he's been the third or fourth option back to last season. The Senators traded Nick Paul because they had a gluttony of youth coming up in the forwards and they're actively trying to acquire a RHD because they know JBD isn't ready and Hamonic/Zaitsev don't cut it in the Top-6.

You cannot reasonably expect a top prospect + 2nd rounder for a guy who is 22 years old (soon to be 23), only has 26 NHL games under his belt, and isn't exactly setting the world on fire in the AHL. JBD Isn't a top prospect anymore, his lack of offensive ability limits him to a potential #4 role at most. He's not even Top-10 in the Senators' prospect pool. His value is falling the longer he stays out of the NHL. That's been my whole point of this, your expectations for the value of JBD are completely unrealistic, given what other defensemen in his same position have been traded for (as I've already touched on in previous replies). It's going to stay that way until he proves himself at an NHL level. Obviously, he has value to the Senators organization still, so it's reasonable to keep him, just not reasonable to ask for that much for a completely unproven 22-year-old defenseman.

lol now you're lecturing me after telling me "You can't be serious"? Gotta love people with no ego...

You were explained that your initial statement (JBD hasn't been able to crack an Ottawa defense that isn't much better...) was uninformed/misinformation. But it is your ego that made you keep your position...

- And this is based on how many games you watched? JBD is a defensive D-man, of course nothing will show on hockeydb.com

- Your argument actually contradicts what you are trying to say... If Batherson or Norris were on another level, then why were they cooked that long? So if JBD is not on the same level, doesn't it justify that he should be cooked longer?

- You think you know what the Sens are doing or not but you're talking without knowing all of what their management did or did not do in the past. Yes, they SHOULD acquire a top pairing RHD, nothing else and nothing to do with JBD who is not expected to become a top pairing D-man

- So Hoglander is a TOP prospect and JBD is a bust?

I can't say that you're not at least entertaining.

What I said stands, I have zero need/desire to acquire Hoglander, I am not trading JBD for him and a 2nd wouldn't entice me to do it. It is very simple



I did NOT ASK for anything.

The You can't be serious. wasn't a question, it was a rhetorical statement.

Yes, I have seen JBD's games. I watched Ottawa get lit up by the Jets, Schiefele made him look like he was little more than a traffic cone out there.

The difference is when Batherson or Norris came up, they were contributing to the Senators team. They dominated in the AHL in all zones. JBD at 22 is not at the same level that Batherson or Norris were at when they were 19 or 20. Anyone in the league can tell you that.

If JBD is not expected to become a top defenseman, you cannot consider him a top prospect. Hoglander can very well be a top-scoring winger in the league. He's already Top-10 in the 2019 draft class. The Canucks are in the process of clearing space for him.


As for your "I did NOT ASK for anything." you said: "No chance I'm doing JBD for Hoglander, even if you'd add a 2nd." The entire context of this thread means you'd ask for more than that for JBD, given that this is a trade proposal thread. You're welcome to have the opinion that Hoglander has less value than JBD, the same way a 5-year-old values a nickel over a dime simply because it appears bigger.

JBD has never been expected to be on Batherson/Norris level, we have projected him to be a second pairing defensive D-man who complements a more offensive guy. It might be Sanderson-JBD next year so don't be surprised if that pairing do very very well

I'll leave it at that



Yes, that's not asking. I stated what I wouldn't do.

I would not trade JBD because I wouldn't be able to fill a bigger need with anything I'd get back. Maybe part of a package for a more significant player but what the Sens need for next year is 2 RHDs and better bottom-6 players (as well as a solid back-up)

JBD could/should be one of these 2 RHDs. Maybe if the Sens didn't have DeBrincat, they could instead invest in Hoglander and then focus on getting 2 RHDs. But as of now, they plan to sign DeBrincat, keep JBD and maybe finally get a RHD to play with Chabot

The thing is every team has a particular context and you can't act like you know more than us who have followed the team everyday for decades lol

You were the one who first compared Batherson/Norris to JBD.



Except you've already said you expect JBD to cook in the AHL more. That he needs more time. How do you expect him to fill that role when he's already incapable of surpassing replacement level players?

Hoglander + 2nd >>> JBD, regardless of what team needs are. Any GM in the league would take that trade because you could flip Hoglander or the 2nd for the equivalent of JBD. Saying you wouldn't take it because your team needs RHD is like saying you wouldn't have traded Motte for Hughes because your team needs bottom six forwards.

A comparison? like really?





lol what is the point of discussing if you're going to ignore everything that is told to you?



Hoglander doesn't have a lot value to me, 5'9 wingers are dime a dozen, RHD are not

I am not doing the swap and the 2nd is not enough to entice me, it is seriously as simple as that. Unless management could get a similar player for a lower price then pocket a profit sure, but this is not guaranteed to happen. Teams usually keep the guy they drafted and invested in and in this case, JBD played with Sanderson, Pinto and Kleven at UND, all guys who will be on the Sens

Anyway, I really don't care about this futile conversation. You can go ahead and label JBD as a bust as much as you want. In the meantime, I am not doing the deal proposed by the OP