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2022-23 NHL Season Discussion Thread #6: No More Summer of Dorion

12 déc. 2022 à 8 h 2
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Quoting: justaBoss
Jesus. I had the energy to debate with Habs fans about Chiarot of his very inflated value, which was true, he got traded for way too much, and the other participant regretted it soon after.

No doubt same is going to happen with Anderson. Some fool is going to trade a haul for him, and regret it soon after. I'm tired of discussing the whole topic. Only reason why these players gather out such a massive debate is because they happen to play for the Montreal Canadiens.

My opinion on Anderson is this - Should Anderson ever return more than a 3rd round pick, similar to Chiarot, at least stats wise, were it basic or advanced, there's absolutely zero justification for it. Anderson might have some decent attributes that interest GMs, such as his size and speed, but as an overall player he comes up way too short when compared to his salary. I mean I could be the best cake mixer in the world, but that talent would be of little use if I can't f*cking bake the rest of the cake. This metaphor describes Anderson to me quite well.

He is probably the first 30-35 point player who earns a staggering $5,5M, and still considered a high value asset.

And yet, despite all that, should Anderson get traded, there's no doubt in my mind it will be for a haul involving a first round pick, a prospect, and probably a cap dump of some kind. Otherwise MTL won't even move him, and to me it seems like fans would remain happy if that was the case, because for some reason they like him.

To me, there's two things getting mixed up in this discussion by the most active debators of this whole issue
- what is he actually worth in return
- what will he actually get in return

These two things are COMPLETELY different.


Josh Anderson has a negative value vs the average NHLer. Is not worth 1 penny of his 5.5m contract. At least that is what he has been this year. Last year he was playing like an overpaid bottom 6 player who scores a goal every so often. At least he consistently scores 20 goals.

Screenshot-2022-12-11-at-8.50.02-PM.png
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12 déc. 2022 à 8 h 8
#1127
Tintin over 1122
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Quoting: DucharmetheDOMinator
If you Hate him so much, whyd you bring him in here?
This beef between you and him is worse than me and dev lol

We are good now.
12 déc. 2022 à 8 h 21
#1128
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Quoting: justaBoss
Jesus. I had the energy to debate with Habs fans about Chiarot of his very inflated value, which was true, he got traded for way too much, and the other participant regretted it soon after.

No doubt same is going to happen with Anderson. Some fool is going to trade a haul for him, and regret it soon after. I'm tired of discussing the whole topic. Only reason why these players gather out such a massive debate is because they happen to play for the Montreal Canadiens.

My opinion on Anderson is this - Should Anderson ever return more than a 3rd round pick, similar to Chiarot, at least stats wise, were it basic or advanced, there's absolutely zero justification for it. Anderson might have some decent attributes that interest GMs, such as his size and speed, but as an overall player he comes up way too short when compared to his salary. I mean I could be the best cake mixer in the world, but that talent would be of little use if I can't f*cking bake the rest of the cake. This metaphor describes Anderson to me quite well.

He is probably the first 30-35 point player who earns a staggering $5,5M, and still considered a high value asset.

And yet, despite all that, should Anderson get traded, there's no doubt in my mind it will be for a haul involving a first round pick, a prospect, and probably a cap dump of some kind. Otherwise MTL won't even move him, and to me it seems like fans would remain happy if that was the case, because for some reason they like him.

To me, there's two things getting mixed up in this discussion by the most active debators of this whole issue
- what is he actually worth in return
- what will he actually get in return

These two things are COMPLETELY different.


For your metaphor, one that hockey uses a lot is he has the tools but not the toolbox that puts them together. I think your paragraph sums it up very well, Anderson ( at least at his contract ) isn’t worth too much, however, should a GM acquire him, it would most likely be an overpayment
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12 déc. 2022 à 8 h 47
#1129
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Bobcat’s Post Game Notes, Game 26

Jackets win, 3-1 over the Calgary Flames.

-It’s the first time Johnny’s played against his old squad since he left. This could go one of two ways: They still love him, or this game’s gonna descend into a riot.

-…ugh, Reverse Retro night again? I’m tired of this stuff, man.

-I may be just a nerd, but I always mark out for teams running kids lines. Tonight, our third line is Kent Johnson, Coke Sillinger and Kirill Marchenko. I wanna see all three of them score goals tonight.

-ONE SHOT, ONE GOAL. A lob pass from Rosie to Patty gets him all alone with Jacob Markstrom, and he goes top shelf to put us up 1-0! Let’s go!

-A minute later, Markstrom slips and falls trying to play the puck but the Flames cover really well for him. We got him with his pants down, but his support got those censor bars up right quick.

-I was blown all the way away by Noah Hanifin’s speed. Watching him chase a dumped puck is insane. He’s so fast!

-Mathieu Olivier goes to the box for slashing. I can definitely see a slash there. I guess these are different refs than the Pens game earlier this week…

-Expert PK play kills that penalty off. I like seeing that, and I want more of it.

-A goal-front scramble leaves Markstrom dead to rights, and Chinny misses the net by a half an inch. It’s something that happens too often in sports: players overthink when they get a god-sent opportunity and duff it. I can’t stay mad at you, Yegor.

-Noah Hanifin draws a hooking penalty. Second PK of the period. Let’s do this…

-More expert penalty killing! I love it!

-2-on-1 opportunity with Johnny and Patty, but Markstrom… stacks the pads and robs them. I had to rewind and scratch my eyes to see if I saw that correctly. What a phenomenal save.

-A 2-ON-0, BUT YEGOR… takes the shot himself instead of hitting a streaking Laine. That’s a very severe brain fart. We’ve all been there.

-First period was great, but I expect the Flames to regroup and come out better in the second.

-Looks like Korpi’s hurt. The King is now in net. I adore those pads, Elvis.

-ERIC. F*CKING. ROBINSON. I love that kid, and he finally scored another goal, his third on the year!

-Noah Hanifin cross-checks Johnny. We’re going on the power play for the first time this game. I guess there’s no love lost.

-The Flames kill that off, but then immediately go back on the penalty kill. Nikita Zadorov goes off for holding.

-They kill THAT off too. That was some good stuff by the Flames, I have to admit.

-Rosie slashes Dillon Dube (which is a fun name to say), but we kill that penalty off. Elvis looks SO MUCH BETTER tonight than he has pretty much all season. This is gonna be a great for his save percentage. The man deserves better than sub-.860!

-…SillI gets sent off for charging. That’s not something you see too often in real life, but it happens ALL THE GODDAMN TIME IN CHEL.

-The PK lasts for all of 5 seconds until Tyler Toffoli gets caught up with Gavi’s stick. Off to the box you go for hooking. 4-On-4 Hockey Time.

-Both penalties get killed off, but then Boone gets tripped by Chris Tanev. JACKETS… OOONN THEEEE POWER PLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY!

-Mackenzie Weegar then trips Boone himself, so we have a 5-on-3!! If we don’t score, we really need to get help for the PP…

-We don’t score, but after the penalty is over, Markstrom’s found dead to rights AGAIN, but the Flames shoo it away. Jacob Markstrom has had an off night, but he gets consistently bailed out. This does not look like the same guy that was nominated for the Vezina last year…

-Mackenzie Weegar slashes Erik Gudbranson after he rails Elias Lindholm. Afterwards, he gets two more minutes for unsportsmanlike conduct. Lol.

-15 seconds after the 4 minute double-minor starts, Marcus Bjork trips up Mikael Backlund. I’m now unable to fit every 3rd period penalty on one screenshot on my laptop.

-…oh christ. Nazem Kadri crashes the net, and he caught the King right in his princes with his stick. Ouch.

-There was some controversy as to whether or not Gus covered the puck with his hand, but it didn’t matter, as the whistle was blown beforehand.

-Mathieu gets sent back to the box for what I first thought was tripping, but ended up being cross-checking. I would have been HEATED if it was tripping. I can understand a cross-check.

-…We’re doing this again? Net’s empty, but we can’t snipe it. We did this a couple games ago…

-…OH, FOR CHRIST’S SAKE! We were SO GODDAMN CLOSE TO PUR FIRST SHUTOUT OF THE SEASON. The hockey gods hate us.

-…WE FINALLY GOT AN EMPTY NET GOAL. IT’S A F*CKING MIRACLE. Sean Kuraly gets credited with the goal.

-I am very happy we won, but I am even more happy for Elvis. He stopped 21 of 22 tonight for a save percentage of .955. It’s only one game, but this has to be very healthy for his unfairly abysmal SV%. Stunt on these hoes, King.
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12 déc. 2022 à 8 h 49
#1130
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Bobcat’s Post Game Notes, Game 27

Jackets win, 6-5 in overtime over the Los Angeles Kings.

-Korpi got hurt last night, and is gonna be out for about a week, so in comes… Jet Greaves. Tarry’s gonna be starting against Hershey tonight for the Monsters, so Jet’s gonna back up Elvis for tonight. I’d expect him to be sent down after tonight.

-Kent Johnson gives Kirill Marchenko a god-sent pass, and he BURIES it behind Johnathan Quick! That’s his first career NHL goal! Here’s to many more!

-Sean Walker slashes Eric Robinson. Time to do power play things.

-OH MY GOD HE DID IT-wait, Boone got his stick on it. Rosie bags his 10th assist of the year on a shot that El Capitan deflects. We’re up 2-0 off a PPG.

-Blake Lizotte trips up Kirill, but the Kings kill that off. Back to the status quo we go…

-There was a bit of confusion on a penalty I missed that… didn’t happen. Thankfully, no PK. Weird.

-That was a phenomenal first 20 minutes. Let’s keep this up.

-Viktor Arvidsson finds himself all alone with Elvis, but the King shuts him down sensationally. Stunt on these hoes, you rockstar.

-…Well, the shutout didn’t last too long. Elvis slips and falls prone, and Anze Kopitar shoots over him to put the Kings back within one. Ouch.

-…Gabe Villardi should win a goddamn Oscar for that acting job. Kirill Marchenko gets sent for high sticking, but he didn’t touch Villardi at all. Sh*t like this is why I feel like high sticking should be reviewable.

-We kill that off, but afterwards we let the game get tied up through sloppy defense. Y’all must hate Elvis or something…

-Rosie and Patty get a 2-on-1, and we finally get a reappearance of THE SMOOTHEST ONE-TIMER IN THE GAME to put us up 3-2.

-…Jaret Anderson-Dolan catches Elvis sliding aimlessly and beats him glove side. Tie game once again.

-Andy boards Gabe Villardi (revenge for that inexcusable acting job earlier), so we have to kill this off…

-HOLY F*CKING SH*T THE DROUGHT IS FINALLY OVER

This calls for a special occasion once again.

(cut to the scene from the Game 16)



HOCKEY DEMONS… I SUMMON THEE ONCE MORE…

…to say we’re done here. I know it took a while, but thank you for answering my prayer.

(blow out the candles, cut to regular scene)



Alright, back to business once again.

-Kevin Fiala kicks the puck with a broken stick. Apparently, that’s a penalty? We take those…

-HE DID IT AGAIN!! I think I owe the Demons something now. What a way to end the second.

-Elvis makes a save that gives Kopitar a juicy rebound that he stickhandles behind him. Rough stuff. At least we’re still ahead.

-…OKAY, NOW WE DON’T EVEN HAVE THAT. Elvis doesn’t clear the puck well, and the Kings capitalize on that. Tie game.

-Kevin Fiala does something penalty-worthy that the crowd doesn’t like, and I missed it.

-We had our chances, but Jonathan Quick and the Kings defense played really well to keep the game tied. We’re off to overtime.

-Patty gets a rush, beats Sean Durzi really smoothly, and takes a shot that Johnny gets the rebound on to send us home!

-If I were to give someone a “Player of the Game” award, hands down it goes to Rosie. 4 points tonight, and he became the first Blue Jacket to score both a shorty and a PPG in the same game since 2009, when Kristian Huselius did it. I love this kid, and I’m running a marathon tomorrow.
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12 déc. 2022 à 8 h 49
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Quoting: justaBoss
To me, there's two things getting mixed up in this discussion by the most active debators of this whole issue
- what is he actually worth in return
- what will he actually get in return

These two things are COMPLETELY different.


Two other things that often getting mixed up here: Chiarot and Anderson

1. Chiarot: He was a rental on reasonable contract, with zero outlay for following season. The debate about Chiarot was about getting a late 1st or getting a 2nd rounder. He got a 1st. But the gap between the fans expectations and actual price was maybe 30-60 picks.

2. Anderson: Anderson is not a rental, and has a contract that pays him well above where it should be. Anderson, unlike any rental, would subject teams to tagging limits, which would, in turn, make RFAs more difficult to sign. For teams like NJD, they would never in a million years but Jesper Bratt at risk to add a 4th liner. The Habs fans ask on Anderson has been well, unusually, high. The ask price is usually something like: Nemec plus 1st, Holtz plus a 1st, or two 1sts (without retention). The bid prices I see are closer to B-prospect and 2nd, but with retention. The two sides are miles apart.

Just because Kent got his ask price met on #1, that does not mean any team capitulates on #2. These trades night and day different.

If you want to talk about Anderson, fine, but find an actual comp that fits.
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12 déc. 2022 à 8 h 55
#1132
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Chicago letting Strome and Kubalik walk without even entertaining the idea of at least qualifying them has got to be one of the most shrewd decisions of the offseason that isn't being discussed enough.

I still don't understand how Chicago botched it that badly (though letting the media know every bit of what you're plan is for them certainly didn't help them)
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12 déc. 2022 à 9 h 10
#1133
What in tarnation
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Quoting: NHLfan10506
Two other things that often getting mixed up here: Chiarot and Anderson

1. Chiarot: He was a rental on reasonable contract, with zero outlay for following season. The debate about Chiarot was about getting a late 1st or getting a 2nd rounder. He got a 1st. But the gap between the fans expectations and actual price was maybe 30-60 picks.

2. Anderson: Anderson is not a rental, and has a contract that pays him well above where it should be. Anderson, unlike any rental, would subject teams to tagging limits, which would, in turn, make RFAs more difficult to sign. For teams like NJD, they would never in a million years but Jesper Bratt at risk to add a 4th liner. The Habs fans ask on Anderson has been well, unusually, high. The ask price is usually something like: Nemec plus 1st, Holtz plus a 1st, or two 1sts (without retention). The bid prices I see are closer to B-prospect and 2nd, but with retention. The two sides are miles apart.

Just because Kent got his ask price met on #1, that does not mean any team capitulates on #2. These trades night and day different.

If you want to talk about Anderson, fine, but find an actual comp that fits.


I don't exactly use Chiarot as a value comparable for Anderson, but rather to compare the nature of this debate. It's very similar to what people were doing a year ago or so.

Fundamentally speaking, neither scenario makes any sense, and still something like that happened (that = bad player getting traded for a haul). I'd really hope for Anderson to not get anything in return, because frankly he's worth absolutely nothing, yet in my mind I cannot see this happen. It'd make my day for MTL having to dump Anderson with a prospect or two (because that's how it should go), so that the Habs fans who insist on him being very valuable would shut the f*ck up.

The hypothetical value of Anderson comes from things that are rationally inexplicable. And yes, the whole scenario makes a complete mockery of any intelligent player value discussion. You can't make a bad player worth a lot in a trade, yet this happens worryingly often, case example in Chiarot, or Ristolainen to throw another.
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12 déc. 2022 à 9 h 13
#1134
What in tarnation
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Quoting: BuFfaLOFaN
Josh Anderson has a negative value vs the average NHLer. Is not worth 1 penny of his 5.5m contract. At least that is what he has been this year. Last year he was playing like an overpaid bottom 6 player who scores a goal every so often. At least he consistently scores 20 goals.

Screenshot-2022-12-11-at-8.50.02-PM.png


There's nothing that surprises me here. Anderson is extremely overrated, and even more overpaid.

As I said, what Anderson should get in return (nothing/Habs should pay to get rid of him) will likely be very different to what will actually happen.
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12 déc. 2022 à 9 h 13
#1135
WentWughes
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Quoting: NHLfan10506
Two other things that often getting mixed up here: Chiarot and Anderson

1. Chiarot: He was a rental on reasonable contract, with zero outlay for following season. The debate about Chiarot was about getting a late 1st or getting a 2nd rounder. He got a 1st. But the gap between the fans expectations and actual price was maybe 30-60 picks.

2. Anderson: Anderson is not a rental, and has a contract that pays him well above where it should be. Anderson, unlike any rental, would subject teams to tagging limits, which would, in turn, make RFAs more difficult to sign. For teams like NJD, they would never in a million years but Jesper Bratt at risk to add a 4th liner. The Habs fans ask on Anderson has been well, unusually, high. The ask price is usually something like: Nemec plus 1st, Holtz plus a 1st, or two 1sts (without retention). The bid prices I see are closer to B-prospect and 2nd, but with retention. The two sides are miles apart.

Just because Kent got his ask price met on #1, that does not mean any team capitulates on #2. These trades night and day different.

If you want to talk about Anderson, fine, but find an actual comp that fits.


Under no circumstances will the Habs get Nemec for Anderson or Holtz. We will get a late 1st and that's probably it. Anybody stating otherwise is nuts.
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12 déc. 2022 à 9 h 14
#1136
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Quoting: NoVaSpartan
Chicago letting Strome and Kubalik walk without even entertaining the idea of at least qualifying them has got to be one of the most shrewd decisions of the offseason that isn't being discussed enough.

I still don't understand how Chicago botched it that badly (though letting the media know every bit of what you're plan is for them certainly didn't help them)


- Strome Walks
- Kubalik Walks
- Dach traded for mid 1st in weak draft
- Debrincat traded for early 1st in weak draft
- Taking Mrazek's contract for basically free


The worst offseason in NHL History?
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12 déc. 2022 à 9 h 16
#1137
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Quoting: justaBoss
There's nothing that surprises me here. Anderson is extremely overrated, and even more overpaid.


I don't think any reasonable Habs fan thinks Anderson is actually good (same could be said with Chiarot). Like it was mentioned above, there's a big difference between his actual value and what he will get. I'll just be happy when we trade him (Even if it's for FC)
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12 déc. 2022 à 9 h 16
#1138
What in tarnation
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
- Strome Walks
- Kubalik Walks
- Dach traded for mid 1st in weak draft
- Debrincat traded for early 1st in weak draft
- Taking Mrazek's contract for basically free


The worst offseason in NHL History?


Depends on how Korchinski and Nazar pan out.
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12 déc. 2022 à 9 h 17
#1139
Craig Laughlin Fan
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
- Strome Walks
- Kubalik Walks
- Dach traded for mid 1st in weak draft
- Debrincat traded for early 1st in weak draft
- Taking Mrazek's contract for basically free


The worst offseason in NHL History?


It's got to be up there (So Far). Steve Yzerman, Brian MacLellan, and Kent Hughes should all send some nice Christmas presents to Kyle Davidson for being that foolish.
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12 déc. 2022 à 9 h 18
#1140
What in tarnation
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
I don't think any reasonable Habs fan thinks Anderson is actually good (same could be said with Chiarot). Like it was mentioned above, there's a big difference between his actual value and what he will get. I'll just be happy when we trade him (Even if it's for FC)


Yep. That's the key word. Problematically enough, I wouldn't use such word to describe a great majority of the kind here.
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12 déc. 2022 à 9 h 21
#1141
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
Under no circumstances will the Habs get Nemec for Anderson or Holtz. We will get a late 1st and that's probably it. Anybody stating otherwise is nuts.


Well, most Habs fans are stating otherwise.

I don’t think anyone moves for him without a significant amount of salary going back to Montreal, either via another contract (like the Neal / Lucic trade) or though salary retention. For the Devils, we don’t have any dead weight contracts to send back, only pending UFAs. So it would have to be through retention.
12 déc. 2022 à 9 h 32
#1142
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On the Chiarot and Anderson discussion, if we want to talk about GMs evaluating players, I want to point out playoff performances.

Bergevin said that there were players that bring you to playoffs, and others that win you playoff games. When he brought Anderson to MTL, it was for the latter.

Turns out: Anderson did not have a good playoff run with MTL even if he was eye-catching with the short CLB run in my mind. It affects his value the most IMO

In contrast, Chiarot had a great playoff run so as a rental, it made sense for a GM to bring him for a playoff run

That said, Edmundson proved that he is a good playoff performer so if he's moved, he's the guy that brings a good return
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12 déc. 2022 à 10 h 5
#1143
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Quoting: NoVaSpartan
Chicago letting Strome and Kubalik walk without even entertaining the idea of at least qualifying them has got to be one of the most shrewd decisions of the offseason that isn't being discussed enough.

I still don't understand how Chicago botched it that badly (though letting the media know every bit of what you're plan is for them certainly didn't help them)


They want to lose this season and Strome/Kubalik were counterintuitive to those goals.
12 déc. 2022 à 10 h 12
#1144
WentWughes
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Quoting: mondo
They want to lose this season and Strome/Kubalik were counterintuitive to those goals.


Both of those players easily could've gotten returns. They let 2 young top 6 RFA's walk for nothing. You're never going to win with asset management that's that bad.
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12 déc. 2022 à 10 h 21
#1145
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Quoting: KSIxSKULLS
Both of those players easily could've gotten returns. They let 2 young top 6 RFA's walk for nothing. You're never going to win with asset management that's that bad.


Yeah, there was definitely a market for both if you qualified them, especially considering how hyped up the upcoming draft is.
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12 déc. 2022 à 10 h 43
#1146
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12 déc. 2022 à 10 h 48
#1147
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Buffalo neeeeds a RD partner who can play good defense and now. The Sabres are IMO a Goaltender and a top 4 DEFENSIVE rd away from being a true contender to make the playoffs, probably are not going to win a cup this year but they can at least get playoff experience.

this is The Athletic's Stanley Cup checklist and i think its pretty accurate. or is it a good start for a team wanting to know if they are cup worthy.
Elite first-line center that’s among the very best players in the world. - Tage Thompson
Elite first-line winger to support the elite center. - Jeff Skinner when he plays with Tage
Two other top-line wingers on each of the top two lines. Alex Tuch - Jack Quin
Top-line center to play behind the elite center. - Dylan Cozens
Two more top-six forwards for depth in the middle six. - Peterka - (i with krebs, last year okposo, but right now we are lacking. Savoie, Kulich, Rosen or someone could fill this)
Elite No. 1 defenseman. - Rasmus Dahlin
A second No. 1 defenseman to play behind him. - Owen Power
A top-pairing defenseman to help anchor a strong second pair with the No. 2. - Samuelsson
Another top-pairing caliber defender to crush soft minutes on the third pair. - Jokiharju?? Nope...No one right now, maybe Ryan Johnson next year. Jokiharju could maybe be this in sheltered minutes. (no one in the pipeline)
A top-10 caliber starting goaltender. - Nope, Trade for someone or wait for Levi, UPL, and Portillo to mature.

Screenshot-2022-12-11-at-8.40.57-PM-2048x1286.png
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12 déc. 2022 à 11 h 8
#1148
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Someone who could fit what the sabres needs is Jensen
12 déc. 2022 à 11 h 56
#1149
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Quoting: BuFfaLOFaN
Buffalo neeeeds a RD partner who can play good defense and now. The Sabres are IMO a Goaltender and a top 4 DEFENSIVE rd away from being a true contender to make the playoffs, probably are not going to win a cup this year but they can at least get playoff experience.

this is The Athletic's Stanley Cup checklist and i think its pretty accurate. or is it a good start for a team wanting to know if they are cup worthy.
Elite first-line center that’s among the very best players in the world. - Tage Thompson
Elite first-line winger to support the elite center. - Jeff Skinner when he plays with Tage
Two other top-line wingers on each of the top two lines. Alex Tuch - Jack Quin
Top-line center to play behind the elite center. - Dylan Cozens
Two more top-six forwards for depth in the middle six. - Peterka - (i with krebs, last year okposo, but right now we are lacking. Savoie, Kulich, Rosen or someone could fill this)
Elite No. 1 defenseman. - Rasmus Dahlin
A second No. 1 defenseman to play behind him. - Owen Power
A top-pairing defenseman to help anchor a strong second pair with the No. 2. - Samuelsson
Another top-pairing caliber defender to crush soft minutes on the third pair. - Jokiharju?? Nope...No one right now, maybe Ryan Johnson next year. Jokiharju could maybe be this in sheltered minutes. (no one in the pipeline)
A top-10 caliber starting goaltender. - Nope, Trade for someone or wait for Levi, UPL, and Portillo to mature.

Screenshot-2022-12-11-at-8.40.57-PM-2048x1286.png


Skinner being productive? Tage is really THAT good
NoVaSpartan et zk97 a aimé ceci.
12 déc. 2022 à 11 h 59
#1150
Craig Laughlin Fan
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Quoting: Sklikly
Skinner being productive? Tage is really THAT good


Skinner having positive market value has got to be one of the biggest shocks from these player cards
capsfan2121, Sklikly et zk97 a aimé ceci.
 
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