Forums/Armchair-GM

Bye mitch

Créé par: Cab17
Date de création initiale: 25 nov. 2022
Publié: 25 nov. 2022
Équipe: 2022-23 Maple Leafs de Toronto
Transactions
TOR
  1. Bertuzzi, Tyler
  2. Seider, Moritz
DET
  1. Marner, Mitchell
  2. Robertson, Nicholas
  3. Sandin, Rasmus
  4. Choix de 2024 ronde en 2e (TOR)
ANNÉE DE REPÊCHAGE1E RONDE2E RONDE3E RONDE4E RONDE5E RONDE6E RONDE7E RONDE
2023
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2024
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2025
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TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS Info-bulleBONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
2382 500 000 $73 834 079 $212 500 $850 000 $8 665 921 $
Ailier gaucheCentreAilier droit
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Bertuzzi, Tyler
4 750 000 $
AG, AD
UFA - 1
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Matthews, Auston
11 640 250 $
C
UFA - 2
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Nylander, William
6 962 366 $
AD, AG
UFA - 2
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Bunting, Michael
950 000 $
AG
UFA - 1
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Tavares, John
11 000 000 $
C
NMC
UFA - 3
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Kerfoot, Alexander
3 500 000 $
AG, AD
M-NTC
UFA - 1
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Simmonds, Wayne
900 000 $
AD, AG
M-NTC
UFA - 1
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Kämpf, David
1 500 000 $
C
UFA - 1
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Malgin, Denis
750 000 $
AG, AD
RFA - 1
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Aston-Reese, Zach
840 630 $
AG, AD
UFA - 1
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Holmberg, Pontus
827 500 $
C
RFA - 1
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Järnkrok, Calle
2 100 000 $
AG, AD
M-NTC
UFA - 4
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Engvall, Pierre
2 250 000 $
AD, AG
UFA - 1
Défenseur gaucherDéfenseur droitierGardien de but
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Rielly, Morgan
7 500 000 $
DG
NMC
UFA - 8
Logo de Red Wings de Detroit
Seider, Moritz
863 333 $
DD
RFA - 2
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Murray, Matt
4 687 500 $
G
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Brodie, TJ
5 000 000 $
DG/DD
NTC
UFA - 2
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Liljegren, Timothy
1 400 000 $
DD
RFA - 2
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Samsonov, Ilya
1 800 000 $
G
RFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Giordano, Mark
800 000 $
DG
UFA - 2
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Timmins, Conor
850 000 $
DD
RFA - 1
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Benn, Jordie
750 000 $
DG/DD
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Holl, Justin
2 000 000 $
DD
M-NTC
UFA - 1
Laissés de côtéListe des blessés (IR)Liste des blessés à long terme (LTIR)
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
Muzzin, Jake
5 625 000 $
DG
NTC
UFA - 2

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25 nov. 2022 à 12 h 22
#1
Leafs ate my sanity
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seider is a gem
25 nov. 2022 à 12 h 23
#2
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zero chance detroit trades Seider. zero. Especially for that package
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25 nov. 2022 à 12 h 26
#3
Seiders on the Storm
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Uh no.
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25 nov. 2022 à 12 h 33
#4
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Quoting: LPProductions
zero chance detroit trades Seider. zero. Especially for that package


If there was a package that Detroit would take for Seider, it would be for something like that.
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25 nov. 2022 à 12 h 42
#5
PlusMinus is stupid
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Insanely hard pass from Detroit
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25 nov. 2022 à 12 h 43
#6
Kster
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Mitch is not going to be traded.
Never trade intra division.
Mitch is not going to be traded.
Come on man, smh
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25 nov. 2022 à 12 h 46
#7
57 year hockey nut.
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Quoting: GMBL
If there was a package that Detroit would take for Seider, it would be for something like that.


No it wouldn't, You're grossly overvaluing Marner here. And the rest is just pure rubbish when it comes to Bertuzzi and Seider.
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25 nov. 2022 à 12 h 47
#8
57 year hockey nut.
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Major hard pass from Detroit, Yzerman is the one that does the fleecing not Dubas.
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25 nov. 2022 à 12 h 51
#9
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Quoting: GMBL
If there was a package that Detroit would take for Seider, it would be for something like that.


The key word being IF.
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25 nov. 2022 à 13 h 0
#10
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Quoting: HockeyIsMyPassion61
No it wouldn't, You're grossly overvaluing Marner here. And the rest is just pure rubbish when it comes to Bertuzzi and Seider.


It's you who is overvaluing your players, if Robertson and Sandin and a late 2nd are rubbish then so is Bertuzzi. And if Seider has a ton of value, so does Marner.

Do you expect to get Makar+Sandin+Robertson+2nd for Seider+Bertuzzi? Or McDavid+those guys, or Matthews? Let me know what kind of package do you expect to get for those two where you're getting well established elite talent. Marner's contract situation and Seider being a RD is the only way to even land someone of his calibre in a package or a 1 for 1.

It's either Detroit trades him for something like that or they don't, and I agree that they don't, but it's not an issue of trade value as you make it seem.
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25 nov. 2022 à 13 h 6
#11
57 year hockey nut.
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Quoting: GMBL
It's you who is overvaluing your players, if Robertson and Sandin and a late 2nd are rubbish then so is Bertuzzi. And if Seider has a ton of value, so does Marner.

Do you expect to get Makar+Sandin+Robertson+2nd for Seider+Bertuzzi? Or McDavid+those guys, or Matthews? Let me know what kind of package do you expect to get for those two where you're getting well established elite talent. Marner's contract situation and Seider being a RD is the only way to even land someone of his calibre in a package or a 1 for 1.


What has Robertson and Sadin done? Bertuzzi has been in the league now for 6 years and has done a hell of a lot more than Robertson and Sandin. We're set for the foreseeable future at LD so we don't need Sandin. And sorry but Nicholas Robertson for the last time isn't his brother Jason so Leaf fans need to stop overvaluing him.

Seider more than likely is under team control for the next 15 years or so if not more, The very thing can't be said about Marner. So no reason for Detroit to even think about a Marner for Seider swap because it's just not reality.
25 nov. 2022 à 13 h 45
#12
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Modifié 25 nov. 2022 à 13 h 57
Quoting: HockeyIsMyPassion61
What has Robertson and Sadin done? Bertuzzi has been in the league now for 6 years and has done a hell of a lot more than Robertson and Sandin. We're set for the foreseeable future at LD so we don't need Sandin. And sorry but Nicholas Robertson for the last time isn't his brother Jason so Leaf fans need to stop overvaluing him.

Seider more than likely is under team control for the next 15 years or so if not more, The very thing can't be said about Marner. So no reason for Detroit to even think about a Marner for Seider swap because it's just not reality.


Bertuzzi has been in the league for 6 years now, yet he only has 190pts in 282 games, he's not that great, he's a late bloomer. Sandin and Robertson haven't done anything in the NHL but they are still young players with potential. So, Sandin+Robertson+ a 2nd is enough for a good top 6 established player, especially one like Bertuzzi who has really only had 1 season with top 6 production. If I thought Nick was his brother, I would be saying you're going to have to add to Bertuzzi to get him. The fact that Detroit doesn't need Sandin is a roster construction issue and not a trade value one. Plus, having a deep LD prospect pool doesn't mean a team can't acquire an NHL ready LD in a trade package. When it comes to Seider you talk about team control, but that's why Sandin and Robertson are in the trade, and Marner has 2 more years than Bertuzzi. So it's a tradeoff, one that I don't think Detroit would want to do. I'm certain that most executives aren't going to offer the Toronto package for Seider and Bertuzzi anyways.

What I'm saying is that IF Detroit does decide to trade Seider+Bertuzzi that's a package that they would take. Your saying it's not, so if you want then tell me what kind of package you would expect from any team, just don't ignore the facts and talk about team control/being established only when it comes to Detroit players.

The way I see the players in that trade:

-The best and most established player is Marner (top 20 player), he's a ufa after 3-years and has a high cap hit that will only get higher.
-The next best player, although only a sophmore is Seider, some might consider him a top 10 D, others will say he's just outside. I can say for sure he's not a top 5 D, so he's not a top 5 player.
-The next most established NHL player (he's not established as a top 6 player) is Bertuzzi, he's a line 2 player at best, he's 27 but upcoming ufa, seems like a late bloomer but he's had a rocky start this year so that's to be determined, he might just not be that good at all.
-Sandin: an 3rd pairing NHL d-man with top 4 potential
-Robertson: a young player that's too good for the AHL but needs to prove that he belongs in the NHL with the few opportunities that he gets (he won't get many chances as he's on a contender), he has top 6 (2nd liner) potential.


The issue for Detroit with the trade is more of giving up a rare commodity in Seider and perhaps a fit issue if you are correct about not needing a LD. However, they do have a couple of expiring ufas and a reclamation projection on LD, and prospects don't need to be guaranteed spots. For Toronto, they get a good RD that they always wanted great, and a ton of cap space. However, now they have another hole in their top 6, on their PK1 unit and PP1 unit. Perhaps Bertuzzi would fill the line 2LW hole, and perhaps he could replace Marner on special teams, but chances are he doesn't resign.
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25 nov. 2022 à 14 h 30
#13
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Quoting: GMBL
Bertuzzi has been in the league for 6 years now, yet he only has 190pts in 282 games, he's not that great, he's a late bloomer. Sandin and Robertson haven't done anything in the NHL but they are still young players with potential. So, Sandin+Robertson+ a 2nd is enough for a good top 6 established player, especially one like Bertuzzi who has really only had 1 season with top 6 production. If I thought Nick was his brother, I would be saying you're going to have to add to Bertuzzi to get him. The fact that Detroit doesn't need Sandin is a roster construction issue and not a trade value one. Plus, having a deep LD prospect pool doesn't mean a team can't acquire an NHL ready LD in a trade package. When it comes to Seider you talk about team control, but that's why Sandin and Robertson are in the trade, and Marner has 2 more years than Bertuzzi. So it's a tradeoff, one that I don't think Detroit would want to do. I'm certain that most executives aren't going to offer the Toronto package for Seider and Bertuzzi anyways.

What I'm saying is that IF Detroit does decide to trade Seider+Bertuzzi that's a package that they would take. Your saying it's not, so if you want then tell me what kind of package you would expect from any team, just don't ignore the facts and talk about team control/being established only when it comes to Detroit players.

The way I see the players in that trade:

-The best and most established player is Marner (top 20 player), he's a ufa after 3-years and has a high cap hit that will only get higher.
-The next best player, although only a sophmore is Seider, some might consider him a top 10 D, others will say he's just outside. I can say for sure he's not a top 5 D, so he's not a top 5 player.
-The next most established NHL player (he's not established as a top 6 player) is Bertuzzi, he's a line 2 player at best, he's 27 but upcoming ufa, seems like a late bloomer but he's had a rocky start this year so that's to be determined, he might just not be that good at all.
-Sandin: an 3rd pairing NHL d-man with top 4 potential
-Robertson: a young player that's too good for the AHL but needs to prove that he belongs in the NHL with the few opportunities that he gets (he won't get many chances as he's on a contender), he has top 6 (2nd liner) potential.


The issue for Detroit with the trade is more of giving up a rare commodity in Seider and perhaps a fit issue if you are correct about not needing a LD. However, they do have a couple of expiring ufas and a reclamation projection on LD, and prospects don't need to be guaranteed spots. For Toronto, they get a good RD that they always wanted great, and a ton of cap space. However, now they have another hole in their top 6, on their PK1 unit and PP1 unit. Perhaps Bertuzzi would fill the line 2LW hole, and perhaps he could replace Marner on special teams, but chances are he doesn't resign.


i respect your opinion most of the time but this is a ridiculous take and I think you should just quit while you're behind. I wouldn't trade Seider for that package, let alone adding Bertuzzi...and either would Yzerman. You are MASSIVELY over valuing Marner and insultingly undervaluing Seider. Keep your 11 million dollar "top 20 player" and we'll keep our young cost controlled #1 defenseman. Problem solved.
25 nov. 2022 à 14 h 41
#14
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Quoting: RedWing9119
i respect your opinion most of the time but this is a ridiculous take and I think you should just quit while you're behind. I wouldn't trade Seider for that package, let alone adding Bertuzzi...and either would Yzerman. You are MASSIVELY over valuing Marner and insultingly undervaluing Seider. Keep your 11 million dollar "top 20 player" and we'll keep our young cost controlled #1 defenseman. Problem solved.


It's not a ridiculous take, I'm agreeing that Detroit keeps Seider but IF they were to trade him, it would be for something like that. If my analysis is way off base then bring your counterpoints and also let me know what kind of package would Detroit consider in your opinion IF they were trading Seider.

I'm not undervaluing Seider or Bertuzzi at all. You guys just expect Yzerman to get someone to overpay for Bertuzzi, which could happen but it would be an overpay.

This trade is essential Marner for Seider 1 for 1 and the other guys are just there to offset the trade. If Seider is the 6th best defender in the League, he's not in the top 20 players, if Marner is the 6th best winger he could be.
25 nov. 2022 à 14 h 43
#15
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Detroit doesn't even consider it. Almost like you forgot Detroit is a young, building team and trading their best young player for an 11M F with less than 3 years term left when Detroit isn't even in win now mode would be the dumbest thing ever
25 nov. 2022 à 14 h 45
#16
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Quoting: GMBL
It's not a ridiculous take, I'm agreeing that Detroit keeps Seider but IF they were to trade him, it would be for something like that. If my analysis is way off base then bring your counterpoints and also let me know what kind of package would Detroit consider in your opinion IF they were trading Seider.

I'm not undervaluing Seider or Bertuzzi at all. You guys just expect Yzerman to get someone to overpay for Bertuzzi, which could happen but it would be an overpay.

This trade is essential Marner for Seider 1 for 1 and the other guys are just there to offset the trade. If Seider is the 6th best defender in the League, he's not in the top 20 players, if Marner is the 6th best winger he could be.


Seider will be one of the best D in the league in a couple more years. Marner will be a pending free agent
25 nov. 2022 à 14 h 52
#17
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Modifié 25 nov. 2022 à 16 h 37
Like it or not, Bertuzzi is less valuable than Miller was last off-season or Fiala. If Yzerman gets similar to the Fiala deal or more, it has all to do with his talent as a GM and not Bertuzzi.

If Bertuzzi can get his production back up, and gets 6mx7 up to 7mx7 in free agency, that contract isn't going to age well.

Quoting: Drw4209
Seider will be one of the best D in the league in a couple more years. Marner will be a pending free agent


I don't disagree with the first part, and because Seider is a legit 1RD which aren't easy to come by, that's enough for Detroit to respectfully decline that trade offer. However, if they say forget about that and trade for Marner who is the better player now, it would be surprising but it's not like Detroit is getting fleeced. They are taking a risk but they should have no problem resigning Marner.

The only thing left for people to say is we won't consider trading Seider unless we're getting a top 5 player or a top 5 D in a trade package. Or someone who is better with the same amount of team control.
25 nov. 2022 à 17 h 34
#18
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Quoting: GMBL
It's not a ridiculous take, I'm agreeing that Detroit keeps Seider but IF they were to trade him, it would be for something like that. If my analysis is way off base then bring your counterpoints and also let me know what kind of package would Detroit consider in your opinion IF they were trading Seider.

I'm not undervaluing Seider or Bertuzzi at all. You guys just expect Yzerman to get someone to overpay for Bertuzzi, which could happen but it would be an overpay.

This trade is essential Marner for Seider 1 for 1 and the other guys are just there to offset the trade. If Seider is the 6th best defender in the League, he's not in the top 20 players, if Marner is the 6th best winger he could be.


Defensemen are more valuable than forwards. Seider has team control for another for many more years, Marner is done after 3 with a pretty high cap hit. Detroit would decline Seider for Marner 1 for 1
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25 nov. 2022 à 18 h 2
#19
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Modifié 25 nov. 2022 à 18 h 10
Quoting: LPProductions
Defensemen are more valuable than forwards. Seider has team control for another for many more years, Marner is done after 3 with a pretty high cap hit. Detroit would decline Seider for Marner 1 for 1


Centers are the most valuable players which is one of the reasons why they get paid the most. RD are more valuable than wingers of the same or lower caliber. Marner is better than Seider and more established so he's more valuable as a player (without considering the cap/contract situation). Why do I think Marner is better than Seider, well he's at least a top 10 winger, if not top 5, and Seider at best is the 6th best defenseman but he's probably 8-15 at best in most peoples' books. The top 20 players in the league are probably 8 centers, 2 goalies at best, 5 defenders at best (more like 2 or 3 imo), which leaves at least 5 wingers. So, if Marner isn't a top 20 player, he's at least a top 25 player.

Detroit declines a 1 for 1 for the reasons that you mentioned, and they probably decline the above offer which mitigates the team control stuff but not the cap. I'm not disagreeing that Detroit declines the trade. I'm saying if they were to trade Seider today it would be for something like that. The keyword is if. To act like the value above is in Toronto's favor is just plain bias.

I was only responding to the part of your comment that said "Especially for a that package" which I took to mean that you think that they could get a better value-wise. You might have just a better package in terms of risk adversion+needs, things related to roster construction. I don't see how the value of that trade is off, Bertuzzi has 1 year, Robertson and Sandin are two players under team control. So there's some mitigation. However, Detroit shouldn't have an issue with resigning Marner, the only downside is he's going to cost a lot more than Seider, which is why he's going to decline.

To reiterate, I'm saying Detroit respectfully declines probably, but IF they are trading Seider, this is something they consider. You don't have to agree with me on that, but I would like to hear what you think that Detroit could land IF they traded Bertuzzi+Seider for another established player+young players/futures or to make it simplier what's a Seider trade to any team that would be acceptable in your eyes.

Most of the other guys are overvaluing Bertuzzi and undervaluing the 3 Leaf players and not presenting an alternative.
25 nov. 2022 à 18 h 18
#20
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No idea why folks want Tyler Bertuzzi on a Canadian team. He refused covid vaccine, so if Leafs took him and Canadian government imposed ANY restrictions again, you'd be paying for a player who can't play in 1/2 the games and can't practice. Bertuzzi is not a generational talent and this would be beyond RISKY.
25 nov. 2022 à 20 h 15
#21
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Quoting: GMBL
Centers are the most valuable players which is one of the reasons why they get paid the most. RD are more valuable than wingers of the same or lower caliber. Marner is better than Seider and more established so he's more valuable as a player (without considering the cap/contract situation). Why do I think Marner is better than Seider, well he's at least a top 10 winger, if not top 5, and Seider at best is the 6th best defenseman but he's probably 8-15 at best in most peoples' books. The top 20 players in the league are probably 8 centers, 2 goalies at best, 5 defenders at best (more like 2 or 3 imo), which leaves at least 5 wingers. So, if Marner isn't a top 20 player, he's at least a top 25 player.

Detroit declines a 1 for 1 for the reasons that you mentioned, and they probably decline the above offer which mitigates the team control stuff but not the cap. I'm not disagreeing that Detroit declines the trade. I'm saying if they were to trade Seider today it would be for something like that. The keyword is if. To act like the value above is in Toronto's favor is just plain bias.

I was only responding to the part of your comment that said "Especially for a that package" which I took to mean that you think that they could get a better value-wise. You might have just a better package in terms of risk adversion+needs, things related to roster construction. I don't see how the value of that trade is off, Bertuzzi has 1 year, Robertson and Sandin are two players under team control. So there's some mitigation. However, Detroit shouldn't have an issue with resigning Marner, the only downside is he's going to cost a lot more than Seider, which is why he's going to decline.

To reiterate, I'm saying Detroit respectfully declines probably, but IF they are trading Seider, this is something they consider. You don't have to agree with me on that, but I would like to hear what you think that Detroit could land IF they traded Bertuzzi+Seider for another established player+young players/futures or to make it simplier what's a Seider trade to any team that would be acceptable in your eyes.

Most of the other guys are overvaluing Bertuzzi and undervaluing the 3 Leaf players and not presenting an alternative.


fair enough.

I dont think Bertuzzi and the extra pieces from toronto are a big deal, seems like a decent package for Bert. Just saying fundamentally, young, stud defensemen NEVER get traded. Like never, honestly can't remember the last one that was dealt early in their career.
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25 nov. 2022 à 20 h 22
#22
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Quoting: LPProductions
fair enough.

I dont think Bertuzzi and the extra pieces from toronto are a big deal, seems like a decent package for Bert. Just saying fundamentally, young, stud defensemen NEVER get traded. Like never, honestly can't remember the last one that was dealt early in their career.


Yeah, getting a top 2 dman isn't that easy, especially on the right side. So teams are going to do whatever it takes to keep them around. It's no surprise that Karlsson and Doughty got those huge deals back in the day. That's why I don't see Detroit trading Seider, hopefully they can sign him 9mx8 or so and have him locked.
25 nov. 2022 à 21 h 15
#23
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Quoting: GMBL
Yeah, getting a top 2 dman isn't that easy, especially on the right side. So teams are going to do whatever it takes to keep them around. It's no surprise that Karlsson and Doughty got those huge deals back in the day. That's why I don't see Detroit trading Seider, hopefully they can sign him 9mx8 or so and have him locked.


well as a bruins fan i hope they send him the **** away to some western conference team. but yea lol
25 nov. 2022 à 22 h 0
#24
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Quoting: LPProductions
well as a bruins fan i hope they send him the **** away to some western conference team. but yea lol


Lol, personally I want to see an "arms race" in the Atlantic 😂, makes for some entertaining hockey.

Horvat to Boston, Chychrun to Florida (or Ottawa), Meier to Toronto. Karlsson to Detroit or Buffalo. Kane to Buffalo next season.
26 nov. 2022 à 0 h 50
#25
Marner rocks
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Mentions "j'aime": 318
Quoting: Drw4209
Seider will be one of the best D in the league in a couple more years. Marner will be a pending free agent


Marner will be the best 2-way RW in the league in 2 years and maybe already. Neither team makes this trade because both guys are the best or 2nd best player on their team.
 
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