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A genuine question for leafs fans

Créé par: The_Ginger_Leaf
Équipe: 2022-23 Maple Leafs de Toronto
Date de création initiale: 31 oct. 2022
Publié: 31 oct. 2022
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
Description
Why do you guys go all hectic? It’s just the start of the season, they played like this last year.

I’m a leaf fan but I don’t go crying and trading marner or Nylander acting like it’s all their fault.

Which is right and wrong. Yes the leafs are playing bad, but keefe hasn’t been very good either. He keeps playing holl. And for the love of god keefe spilt up that first line because marner just instantly clicks with Tavares.

Dubas isn’t the worst gm either. Sure he’s made a couple of bad bad moves. But he’s got a good roster that he’s built.

Now here are my lines when heathy , just my opinion
Instead of maglin I’d put NAK
Repêchage1e ronde2e ronde3e ronde4e ronde5e ronde6e ronde7e ronde
2023
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de OTT
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
2024
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de OTT
2025
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS Info-bulleBONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
2682 500 000 $79 027 913 $212 500 $0 $3 472 087 $
Ailier gaucheCentreAilier droit
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
950 000 $950 000 $
AG
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
11 640 250 $11 640 250 $
C
UFA - 2
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
6 962 366 $6 962 366 $
AD
UFA - 2
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
2 100 000 $2 100 000 $
AD, C, AG
M-NTC
UFA - 4
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
11 000 000 $11 000 000 $
C, AG
NMC
UFA - 3
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
10 903 000 $10 903 000 $
AD
UFA - 3
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
796 667 $796 667 $
AG, AD
RFA - 2
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
3 500 000 $3 500 000 $
AG, C, AD
M-NTC
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
750 000 $750 000 $
AG, AD
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
2 250 000 $2 250 000 $
AD, AG
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
1 500 000 $1 500 000 $
C
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
900 000 $900 000 $
AD, AG
M-NTC
UFA - 1
Défenseur gaucherDéfenseur droitierGardien de but
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
7 500 000 $7 500 000 $
DG
NMC
UFA - 8
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
1 400 000 $1 400 000 $
DD
RFA - 2
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
1 800 000 $1 800 000 $
G
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
5 000 000 $5 000 000 $
DG/DD
NTC
UFA - 2
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
1 400 000 $1 400 000 $
DG
UFA - 2
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
750 000 $750 000 $
G
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
750 000 $750 000 $
DG/DD
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
800 000 $800 000 $
DG
UFA - 2
Laissés de côtéListe des blessés (IR)Liste des blessés à long terme (LTIR)
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
810 000 $810 000 $
DG
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
5 625 000 $5 625 000 $
DG
NTC
UFA - 2
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
840 630 $840 630 $
AG, AD
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
4 687 500 $4 687 500 $
G
M-NTC
UFA - 2
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
2 000 000 $2 000 000 $
DD
M-NTC
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
750 000 $750 000 $
DG/DD
UFA - 1
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
762 500 $762 500 $
AG
UFA - 2
Logo de Maple Leafs de Toronto
1 000 000 $1 000 000 $
AD
UFA - 1

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31 oct. 2022 à 15 h 52
#1
You know nothing JS
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When your think your team is a contender and doesnt show up during playoffs for 6 years in a row, you need to change more than just goalies or coaches.

IMO It's about time TML fans get mad and realize the same team will get the same result if they dont break the top 4 to get a good defenseman.
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31 oct. 2022 à 15 h 58
#2
LongtimeLeafsufferer
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I kinda disagree with some of your scenarios. Keefe hasn't had much options to play Holl....Muzzin, Liljgren, have all been injured.
Dubas and the Leafs management have been poor. Very weak drafting, prospects and have mismanaged the cap badly where the Leafs are depending on too many players to play above their contracts.
Leafs are kinda "stuck" with their roster now due to so many high cap..some non value players.
Leafs were probably at their high water mark last year with the group of players they had.
Next time the Leafs can make a legitimate run will be in 24/25. Matthews, Nylander, Murray, Muzzin and Brodie will gone via UFA or retired......that's 34m. Hopefully the Leafs have a GM that can spend the cap better than the current regime.
31 oct. 2022 à 16 h 6
#3
KM87
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Quoting: palhal
I kinda disagree with some of your scenarios. Keefe hasn't had much options to play Holl....Muzzin, Liljgren, have all been injured.
Dubas and the Leafs management have been poor. Very weak drafting, prospects and have mismanaged the cap badly where the Leafs are depending on too many players to play above their contracts.
Leafs are kinda "stuck" with their roster now due to so many high cap..some non value players.
Leafs were probably at their high water mark last year with the group of players they had.
Next time the Leafs can make a legitimate run will be in 24/25. Matthews, Nylander, Murray, Muzzin and Brodie will gone via UFA or retired......that's 34m. Hopefully the Leafs have a GM that can spend the cap better than the current regime.


Another big problem was the cap not rising like a lot of teams had anticipated.
31 oct. 2022 à 16 h 8
#4
LongtimeLeafsufferer
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Quoting: KM87
Another big problem was the cap not rising like a lot of teams had anticipated.


That's true, but the Leafs have had a habit of paying "hometown premiums" to their own players. At the time of signings. when they had comparables....they overpaid.
31 oct. 2022 à 16 h 13
#5
KM87
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Quoting: palhal
That's true, but the Leafs have had a habit of paying "hometown premiums" to their own players. At the time of signings. when they had comparables....they overpaid.


Oh absolutely. How 3 players fleeced a GM that badly and all in a row is extremely frustrating.
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31 oct. 2022 à 16 h 15
#6
exo2769
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Quoting: palhal
I kinda disagree with some of your scenarios. Keefe hasn't had much options to play Holl....Muzzin, Liljgren, have all been injured.
Dubas and the Leafs management have been poor. Very weak drafting, prospects and have mismanaged the cap badly where the Leafs are depending on too many players to play above their contracts.
Leafs are kinda "stuck" with their roster now due to so many high cap..some non value players.
Leafs were probably at their high water mark last year with the group of players they had.
Next time the Leafs can make a legitimate run will be in 24/25. Matthews, Nylander, Murray, Muzzin and Brodie will gone via UFA or retired......that's 34m. Hopefully the Leafs have a GM that can spend the cap better than the current regime.


I'm not a Leafs fan, but from the outside...I'll disagree slightly with a couple of these.

A.)Very weak drafting. Robertson Knies in the 2nd are still both very good picks in the 2nd round. Topi in the 3rd is still a very good 3rd round pick. You can't really help Amirov. That's not fair.
B.) mismanaged cap. Kinda yeah. It's more the second part. Handing out contracts to players for something they can potentially achieve vs contracts for what they've actually achieved is a HUGE piece, but LTIR management...retentions slots...I mean Brandon Pridham has done a decent job. Riley Nash

To me... the issue has always been that management underestimates every single year how badly other teams are simply willing to mortgage the future more than TOR is willing to do. FLA doesn't have their next (3) 1st round picks. TBL doesn't have their next (2) 1st round picks. But Dubas thinks Gio is somehow Giroux. In what universe is Foligno worth a 1st?

There are also smaller items. NOT one single GM wins every trade, but it does hurt to lose Kadri. Mason Marchment. It also hurts that Dubas has to trade assets away for his own mistakes. Mrazek and Ritchie, but also with Ritchie...he didn't extend the Lubi...a guy TOR very much needed. Instead Jarnkrok and Matt Murray is where Dubas spends the cap he has.
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31 oct. 2022 à 16 h 19
#7
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Quoting: KM87
Oh absolutely. How 3 players fleeced a GM that badly and all in a row is extremely frustrating.


Not really 3-players, it's really only Matthews and Marner who got crazy contracts.

Nylander's has it's comparables, and Tavares was a UFA, and he signed at areasonable price in Toronto.
31 oct. 2022 à 16 h 22
#8
KM87
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Quoting: exo2769
I'm not a Leafs fan, but from the outside...I'll disagree slightly with a couple of these.

A.)Very weak drafting. Robertson Knies in the 2nd are still both very good picks in the 2nd round. Topi in the 3rd is still a very good 3rd round pick. You can't really help Amirov. That's not fair.
B.) mismanaged cap. Kinda yeah. It's more the second part. Handing out contracts to players for something they can potentially achieve vs contracts for what they've actually achieved is a HUGE piece, but LTIR management...retentions slots...I mean Brandon Pridham has done a decent job. Riley Nash

To me... the issue has always been that management underestimates every single year how badly other teams are simply willing to mortgage the future more than TOR is willing to do. FLA doesn't have their next (3) 1st round picks. TBL doesn't have their next (2) 1st round picks. But Dubas thinks Gio is somehow Giroux. In what universe is Foligno worth a 1st?

There are also smaller items. NOT one single GM wins every trade, but it does hurt to lose Kadri. Mason Marchment. It also hurts that Dubas has to trade assets away for his own mistakes. Mrazek and Ritchie, but also with Ritchie...he didn't extend the Lubi...a guy TOR very much needed. Instead Jarnkrok and Matt Murray is where Dubas spends the cap he has.


Dubas is very much in love with adding to his Defensive forward group, but seems to ignore this teams need year after year for better RD
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31 oct. 2022 à 16 h 24
#9
KM87
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Quoting: GMBL
Not really 3-players, it's really only Matthews and Marner who got crazy contracts.

Nylander's has it's comparables, and Tavares was a UFA, and he signed at areasonable price in Toronto.


Nylander contract is very good now, but at the time, he had comparables for much lower salary.
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31 oct. 2022 à 16 h 40
#10
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Quoting: exo2769
I'm not a Leafs fan, but from the outside...I'll disagree slightly with a couple of these.

A.)Very weak drafting. Robertson Knies in the 2nd are still both very good picks in the 2nd round. Topi in the 3rd is still a very good 3rd round pick. You can't really help Amirov. That's not fair.
B.) mismanaged cap. Kinda yeah. It's more the second part. Handing out contracts to players for something they can potentially achieve vs contracts for what they've actually achieved is a HUGE piece, but LTIR management...retentions slots...I mean Brandon Pridham has done a decent job. Riley Nash

To me... the issue has always been that management underestimates every single year how badly other teams are simply willing to mortgage the future more than TOR is willing to do. FLA doesn't have their next (3) 1st round picks. TBL doesn't have their next (2) 1st round picks. But Dubas thinks Gio is somehow Giroux. In what universe is Foligno worth a 1st?

There are also smaller items. NOT one single GM wins every trade, but it does hurt to lose Kadri. Mason Marchment. It also hurts that Dubas has to trade assets away for his own mistakes. Mrazek and Ritchie, but also with Ritchie...he didn't extend the Lubi...a guy TOR very much needed. Instead Jarnkrok and Matt Murray is where Dubas spends the cap he has.


I agree with a lot of your counter-points to Palhal's comment but I have a few disagreements. Toronto was willing to mortgage but all they had is 1st basically. So, they went shopping with what they had Foligno didn't work out, but that's the same for Chariot in FLR. Gio wasn't a bad pick up, he was playing top minutes for SEA and they needed D help.


As for trades, the Kadri trade was a must basically, and Kerfoot+Barrie wasn't a bad return (it's easy to criticize that trade in hindsight but people seem to forget that Kadri cost Toronto 2 playoffs and Colorado 1). As for Marchment he wouldn't have cracked the team most likely, and ended up out of the League since he was a later bloomer. Mrazek was a bad signing from the start, too much money and term for a guy who was suspect and had a long injury history (luckily for Dubas he got out of that). As for the Ritchie signing, it was Dubas trying to add size to the roster, and it was just a 1-year deal so the signing wasn't too bad (unless there was a better option aka a better player willing to sign for that or cheaper). He turned it into gold, with the Lyubushkin trade, but perhaps dropped the ball with not signing Lyubushkin. Letting go of Engvall for example though wouldn't have gotten them Lyubushkin.

Jarnkrok is a good pick up at 2.1m and could serve as a cheaper Kerfoot replacement. The only goalie option at the time was Georgiev who signed for cheaper than Murray (Campbell 5m, Husso 4.75m, etc). So, if they had him, then they could have kepted Lyubushkin by letting Engvall go.
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31 oct. 2022 à 16 h 43
#11
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Modifié 31 oct. 2022 à 16 h 48
Quoting: KM87
Nylander contract is very good now, but at the time, he had comparables for much lower salary.


I disagree, if you look at the comparables in the link, he has 5 guys with 85-93.6% match. You can't just look at AAV at the end of the day, need to factor in % of cap and actual salary (so taxes too).

He only has a slightly higher cap hit (lower cap hit %) than his buddy Pastrnak, and he had a slightly higher PGP rate than Pasta (when Pasta signed his contract).
31 oct. 2022 à 16 h 50
#12
exo2769
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Quoting: GMBL
I agree with a lot of your counter-points to Palhal's comment but I have a few disagreements. Toronto was willing to mortgage but all they had is 1st basically. So, they went shopping with what they had Foligno didn't work out, but that's the same for Chariot in FLR. Gio wasn't a bad pick up, he was playing top minutes for SEA and they needed D help.


As for trades, the Kadri trade was a must basically, and Kerfoot+Barrie wasn't a bad return (it's easy to criticize that trade in hindsight but people seem to forget that Kadri cost Toronto 2 playoffs and Colorado 1). As for Marchment he wouldn't have cracked the team most likely, and ended up out of the League since he was a later bloomer. Mrazek was a bad signing from the start, too much money and term for a guy who was suspect and had a long injury history (luckily for Dubas he got out of that). As for the Ritchie signing, it was Dubas trying to add size to the roster, and it was just a 1-year deal so the signing wasn't too bad (unless there was a better option aka a better player willing to sign for that or cheaper). He turned it into gold, with the Lyubushkin trade, but perhaps dropped the ball with not signing Lyubushkin. Letting go of Engvall for example though wouldn't have gotten them Lyubushkin.

Jarnkrok is a good pick up at 2.1m and could serve as a cheaper Kerfoot replacement. The only goalie option at the time was Georgiev who signed for cheaper than Murray (Campbell 5m, Husso 4.75m, etc). So, if they had him, then they could have kepted Lyubushkin by letting Engvall go.


I agree with you and Palhal for the most part. Everyone in management HAS to be on the hot seat this year. You can't have this quality of a team and continue to have nothing to show for it. I'm a Hawks fan...and don't think Kaner's the right guy for TOR, but go find the right target and pay the full freight price. I'm not saying (10) 1sts or anything extreme, but if TBL can send (2) 1sts and (2) fringe NHLers for Hagel...they want it more than TOR does. Plain and simple. If TOR wants Chyrchrun...pay the asking price. If TOR wants Murphy 50% retained...pay the asking price. Just make a SERIOUS move. It's not that Gio is bad. It's that Dubas needs to buy both cap space and talent at the same time. 2nd round pick trades aren't going to make that happen IMO.
31 oct. 2022 à 17 h 31
#13
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Quoting: exo2769
I agree with you and Palhal for the most part. Everyone in management HAS to be on the hot seat this year. You can't have this quality of a team and continue to have nothing to show for it. I'm a Hawks fan...and don't think Kaner's the right guy for TOR, but go find the right target and pay the full freight price. I'm not saying (10) 1sts or anything extreme, but if TBL can send (2) 1sts and (2) fringe NHLers for Hagel...they want it more than TOR does. Plain and simple. If TOR wants Chyrchrun...pay the asking price. If TOR wants Murphy 50% retained...pay the asking price. Just make a SERIOUS move. It's not that Gio is bad. It's that Dubas needs to buy both cap space and talent at the same time. 2nd round pick trades aren't going to make that happen IMO.


Imo Murphy is just as good as Holl but getting paid x2 lol. Chychrun could be a good fit but he's too injury prone to pay the asking price, if prospect rich teams aren't doing it, then the Leafs definitely shoudn't be because he's not fulfilling a need. I agree with you that Kane isn't the guy the Leafs need, I think Toews is the guy they should add (he may or may not be an option for them). What the Leafs need is a RHD. Timo Meier as a pure rental could work too, but I don't see how the Leafs acquire him without paying an arm and a leg.

2 1st for Hagel wasn't all that bad, it's like paying two 1st for each of the year, and he was only making 1.5m, they were the back to back Champs though so that move is easy for them to make especially since they needed that low cap hit.

I don't care if it costs Dubas his job, but the Leafs need to practice patience. The idea that the Leafs window is 2 years (when Matthews contract is up), is a fool's narrative, because if they keep going all in, they won't be protected from Matthews walking. If Matthews wins a cup in Toronto, then there's nothing left for him to do except get paid (and he can do that anywhere) and bring a cup to Arizona. So, the Leafs shouldn't be giving up Knies or Niemela at all, and they shouldn't give up their 2023 1st and 2024 1st in an act of desperation. The only way I see Matthews wanting to stay in Toronto no matter what is if they win back to back and/or make him highest paid player by giving him 17-20% of the cap.

Dubas needs to save his job first and then he needs to extend Matthews and Nylander (and Marner the off-season after that), and Panicking in the 1st month of hockey isn't going to get him good results. Right now the core 4 take ~40.5m, I'm guessing it could take that much (up to 42m -15m+14m+13m) to just sign the 3, but if they can fit Tavares in there (15m+14m+9m+2.5m or 14m+13m+10+3.5m), then they will be set for a while as the cap increases.
31 oct. 2022 à 17 h 42
#14
torontos finest
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It's 10 games into 6 years.
 
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