I fully agree - it's not in the waiting business. So why wait on Friedman to possibly bloom when you already have a proven NHL defender in Smith who is already better and with way higher upside? Or Ruhwedel who had a fantastic season last year and has already proven himself? Even POJ has shown to be just as good as Friedman at the NHL level in both of their brief stints. If the team needs to win now we shouldn't be handing out starting spots to players in hopes that they might blossom out of nowhere.

I'm just confused as to how trading Smith and POJ and playing Friedman helps the team win now in any way? It's not like you are trading them for another player who will start. It's almost like trading your 2 top young defenseman - one who is arguably as good as Friedman and one who definitely is - for nothing to start Mark Friedman. I just don't see any logic there. Again, it's nothing against Friedman, I'm just not understanding the rationale behind the move.

This is where we disagree I guess and I know I'm being a dick right now, but I think you're looking at the draft positions/pedigree and not the actual play. Friedman has been wayyyyyy better than Smith and POJ and I'm not sure what you've seen to come to the conclusion the either of those players has been better than Friedman.

Seravalli has already reported POJ has been offered to every single team.

You're good man - it's just a friendly discussion haha - at least I hope you're taking i that way too. I'm not looking at draft positions at all - and really not pedigree either. Although that does matter, especially for young players.

I can't speak for Smith as I don't watch Devils games outside of when they play the Pens, but the numbers speak for themselves on his part. What he's done on an awful Devils team is pretty encouraging - and can very much prove as evidence that he's already better than Friedman. Friedman put up middling numbers in sheltered minutes with high offensive zone starts on an amazing team. You can't say Friedman is wayyyyy better than Smith. That's just not living in reality.

I can speak on POJ and Freidman as I've watched all their games - and Friedman is not wayyyyyy better than POJ. At worst they're basically equal - and I would give the edge to the younger guy who's also a lefty and has higher upside. I'm starting to think I ran into a Friedman burner account haha

I mean not taking it badly lol

I'm still not sure what you're basing all this off of. Friedman is better in every aspect of the game than POJ. POJ is just not good at anything. He had one little flash when he had his little stint, but he could never replicate that. He's just not good. Ruhwedel and Friedman are better dmen than POJ. I thought POJ was actually worse than most of the other rookies so far in pre-season.

When it comes to Smith, yeah, he's got more offense to his game, but Friedman has a far more well-rounded player.

And I'm not sure what you're basing this all off of haha. You're talking about Friedman as if he's Victor Hedman. I explained what I was basing it off of. Friedman put up middling numbers in sheltered minutes on a great team with high offensive zone starts. The only thing Friedman objectively brings to the table more than POJ and Smith is grit and penalty minutes.

Just outright saying POJ is not good and Friedman is doesn't make any sense. You can't have these players that far apart with that much confidence. Neither does saying Friedman is far better than Smith. I don't even think the conversation can be had to play Friedman over Smith, or say he's better than Smith. Smith was amazing his rookie year and a large chunk of his issues last year can be attributed to playing on an awful team and lugging around the corpse of PK Subban. If you want to make an argument Friedman over POJ I'll at least listen and don't think it's an easy decision either way - but at the end of the day Friedman doesn't give you any better of a chance to win now than POJ does - so I'll take the younger lefty with higher upside.

Saying Friedman is better than POJ and Smith, or that he's a legit 3rd pairing dman is far from calling him Victor Hedman lol. Here's some valid stats for you. Friedman is a more well-rounded dman than the others.

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I screwed up. Here's POJ.

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Yep that's it you got me. Mark Friedman is better than 98% of defenseman in the national hockey league overall lol. Powered by that legendary offense that saw him 8th on his own team in Corsi% and shot SF%, 6th in GF/60, 4th in G/60 and 6th in A/60 - all while having the highest percentage of offensive zone starts on the team. He's actually significantly better than Letang - so bringing him back was a mistake. We should have spent that money elsewhere and put Friedman up there as his replacement. Ruhwedel and Marino are actually better than Letang too. The right side should be Friedman, Ruhwedel, Marino in that order.

And Kapanen and Heinen are better than Barzal - and significantly better than Rakell. Malkin is better than Crosby too.

See, this is why these discussions go nowhere. People have their opinions, say you base it on nothing, then give them stats and that stats aren't real. Enjoy your day!

Well, first off, these aren't really stats. These are subjective metrics based on actual stats and play - as I clearly pointed out have issues. Why are his "stats" valid but mine aren't?

Secondly, I never even said they were wrong. I just pointed out if these cards are accurate, then you need to stand by them. If these are valid stats that you base your argument on - then you should be able to use them for everybody. So I say Friedman is a top 5 defender in the NHL and is significantly better than Letang so he should be on the top pair. Ruhwedel and Petry are also better than Letang, so Letang should be benched. Rakell should be moved to the third line, as Heinen and Kapanen are significantly better than him. They're even better than the newly signed 9mil AAV Barzal, as well as other top FA like Trocheck and Copp.

My point was just that you can't use these cards only when it fist you argument