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Saving Robertson

Créé par: dtd_tank
Équipe: 2022-23 Red Wings de Detroit
Date de création initiale: 30 sept. 2022
Publié: 30 sept. 2022
Mode - plafond salarial: Basique
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RFAANSCAP HIT
88 250 000 $
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  1. Robertson, Jason [Droits de RFA]
DAL
  1. Bertuzzi, Tyler
  2. Johansson, Albert
  3. Choix de 1e ronde en 2024 (DET)
  4. Choix de 2e ronde en 2025 (DET)
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30 sept. 2022 à 13 h 40
#26
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Quoting: dtd_tank
Not quite sure how the rebuild was messed up with this offseason's signings. Only one that could impact the rebuild, really, is Chiarot, but he's the only LD signed past this year.


Well chariot is a big one, and he's awful. If you want a terrible defender to help tank you can sign one much cheaper than that. Husso is 27 with like a 20 game hot streak and copp is a hell of a contract to give a guy with his record.
Not to mention hanging on to rebuild assets like bert .
Yzerman looks like he's trying to get the team competitive as soon as possible and he's not doing a good job of it. This team will still stink and now it's got some big probable anchor contracts for no reason
30 sept. 2022 à 13 h 49
#27
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Quoting: JaredOfLondon
Well chariot is a big one, and he's awful. If you want a terrible defender to help tank you can sign one much cheaper than that. Husso is 27 with like a 20 game hot streak and copp is a hell of a contract to give a guy with his record.
Not to mention hanging on to rebuild assets like bert .
Yzerman looks like he's trying to get the team competitive as soon as possible and he's not doing a good job of it. This team will still stink and now it's got some big probable anchor contracts for no reason


In a vacuum, I can see how you can convince yourself of those opinions.

Husso is the only goalie signed past this year. Ned will finish his contract and the team can decide to keep both, move one, etc based on how Cossa is developing. He'll likely need 1-2 yrs in the AHL anyway, so we're relatively safe in net until then with a couple younger netminders competing for the top spot.

Copp is paid fair for his production the past 3 years, without even considering that his defensive game is a primary asset. And if Kasper, Niederbach, or anyone else show up and push him from 2C, he has shown that he plays the wing well also.

The Bert/vaccination situation forced Yzerman's hand to keep him. His trade destinations were limited, but I can see them opening up now, if the team were to opt to move him. However, again, this situation needs further context: he's Larkin's closest teammate. You don't want to disgruntle Larkin by moving Bert when you're trying to get him to sign a long term deal.
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 2
#28
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Quoting: dtd_tank
In a vacuum, I can see how you can convince yourself of those opinions.

Husso is the only goalie signed past this year. Ned will finish his contract and the team can decide to keep both, move one, etc based on how Cossa is developing. He'll likely need 1-2 yrs in the AHL anyway, so we're relatively safe in net until then with a couple younger netminders competing for the top spot.

Copp is paid fair for his production the past 3 years, without even considering that his defensive game is a primary asset. And if Kasper, Niederbach, or anyone else show up and push him from 2C, he has shown that he plays the wing well also.

The Bert/vaccination situation forced Yzerman's hand to keep him. His trade destinations were limited, but I can see them opening up now, if the team were to opt to move him. However, again, this situation needs further context: he's Larkin's closest teammate. You don't want to disgruntle Larkin by moving Bert when you're trying to get him to sign a long term deal.


But even outside of said vacuum these player adds are all 27 years old or older. If the rebuild goes right they will all be 30 or older by the time the wings want to make a push, same with bert and larkin(29 close enough).
You dont bring in older guys on big contracts to fund a rebuild unless youre getting paid in pics and prospects to take em from contenders.
These are 'win asap' moves, and the team isn't built do do anything close to that
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 3
#29
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Quoting: JaredOfLondon
You know you're gonna do great when the best thing you got to counter "you messed up the rebuild" is a cup drought chirp.
But hey, if that's what gets you through the dead things era 2.0, bully for you!


Nope, just a simple statement of fact. In my lifetime, I’ve experienced the “dead wings (dead things is the leaf franchise)”, 4 cups, 25 years straight in the playoffs, a bad attempt at a rebuild, and now year three of a good rebuild.

Meanwhile, you have to play Napoleon and try and fight everyone because your team just doesn’t get it done. Whether you finish 1st or 32nd, it doesn’t matter until you win the cup.

Last point, if your only chirp is how bad Detroit has been, it makes sense. The wings for 7 years have been atrocious. Your team hasn’t been, yet somehow we have the better past success, and the better future moving forward.
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 5
#30
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Quoting: CoachCoach
Nope, just a simple statement of fact. In my lifetime, I’ve experienced the “dead wings (dead things is the leaf franchise)”, 4 cups, 25 years straight in the playoffs, a bad attempt at a rebuild, and now year three of a good rebuild.

Meanwhile, you have to play Napoleon and try and fight everyone because your team just doesn’t get it done. Whether you finish 1st or 32nd, it doesn’t matter until you win the cup.

Last point, if your only chirp is how bad Detroit has been, it makes sense. The wings for 7 years have been atrocious. Your team hasn’t been, yet somehow we have the better past success, and the better future moving forward.


Lol, see? That's all you got. Great defence of the rebuild champ, if you wanna talk about the topic at hand we can do that but if you wanna take franchise pot shots because you got nothing, well, youve got nothing
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 15
#31
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Quoting: Db1899
lol yeah definitely a homer for a team that I can care less about.

Cherry picking lol - those are 5 stats that Robertson destroys panarin - goals for per 60 (increasing the rate his team scores), expected goals per 60 (driving offense), CF/60 (driving possession).

What stats is Panarin better in? Robertson had more even strength points than Panarin, the only stat Panarin is much better in is getting secondary assists on the powerplay


You lost all credibility when you said he's better than Kuch.

He is better than Panarin though.
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 16
#32
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Quoting: JaredOfLondon
Well chariot is a big one, and he's awful. If you want a terrible defender to help tank you can sign one much cheaper than that. Husso is 27 with like a 20 game hot streak and copp is a hell of a contract to give a guy with his record.
Not to mention hanging on to rebuild assets like bert .
Yzerman looks like he's trying to get the team competitive as soon as possible and he's not doing a good job of it. This team will still stink and now it's got some big probable anchor contracts for no reason


You could not be more off-base.
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 22
#33
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Quoting: JaredOfLondon
But even outside of said vacuum these player adds are all 27 years old or older. If the rebuild goes right they will all be 30 or older by the time the wings want to make a push, same with bert and larkin(29 close enough).
You dont bring in older guys on big contracts to fund a rebuild unless youre getting paid in pics and prospects to take em from contenders.
These are 'win asap' moves, and the team isn't built do do anything close to that


You can say that about their age, but you must not be aware of the fact that we're the 5th youngest team in the league right now. And as the next 1-3 years roll on, we've got a plethora of guys who we expect to be top 9 F/top 4 D talent coming up through the ranks to replace guys who will be taking spots from guys that are 5-10 yrs older than them. That doesn't push Copp/Husso/Chiarot's longer term contracts off the roster necessarily, but in the same vain, you also can't dismiss the fact that we only have 4 guys at the moment who are signed past next season. Lots of room for player movement, and lots of potential to close out the rebuild.
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 25
#34
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Quoting: dtd_tank
You can say that about their age, but you must not be aware of the fact that we're the 5th youngest team in the league right now. And as the next 1-3 years roll on, we've got a plethora of guys who we expect to be top 9 F/top 4 D talent coming up through the ranks to replace guys who will be taking spots from guys that are 5-10 yrs older than them. That doesn't push Copp/Husso/Chiarot's longer term contracts off the roster necessarily, but in the same vain, you also can't dismiss the fact that we only have 4 guys at the moment who are signed past next season. Lots of room for player movement, and lots of potential to close out the rebuild.


Age matters because the wings entire core outside of sieder will be past prime when they are ready to step to the next level. They wont be good enough to even make the playoffs before that, and then they'll have a bunch of older expensive guys who arnt good enough and a loaded cap for no reason
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 26
#35
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Quoting: Datsyukian
You could not be more off-base.


Well when you hit a home run you dont stay on a base
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 30
#36
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Quoting: JaredOfLondon
Age matters because the wings entire core outside of sieder will be past prime when they are ready to step to the next level. They wont be good enough to even make the playoffs before that, and then they'll have a bunch of older expensive guys who arnt good enough and a loaded cap for no reason


Where did I say age doesn't matter? Of course it does. But you're not going to push for the Cup with a squad of all 23yo's unless you get insanely lucky with the lottery. Detroit hasn't had any luck, let alone the luck of Toronto, NJ, EDM in that respect. And, hell, none of those teams have competed for a Cup yet either.
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 32
#37
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Quoting: dtd_tank
Where did I say age doesn't matter? Of course it does. But you're not going to push for the Cup with a squad of all 23yo's unless you get insanely lucky with the lottery. Detroit hasn't had any luck, let alone the luck of Toronto, NJ, EDM in that respect. And, hell, none of those teams have competed for a Cup yet either.


but thats my entire point. The best thing here for the wings was to pull a chicago and sell everything that wasnt tied down. Land Bedard/Michov/Fantili and keep building up. These signings probably make them just good enough to get out of that race while tying them to the contracts.
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 35
#38
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Quoting: JaredOfLondon
Lol, see? That's all you got. Great defence of the rebuild champ, if you wanna talk about the topic at hand we can do that but if you wanna take franchise pot shots because you got nothing, well, youve got nothing


Okay sir you wanted it. Rebuild breakdown just for you. Also, you are the one who took the pot shots as you initiated the negativity by saying "worse team" and "team not knowing how to rebuild". My response was adequate as tit-for-tat, you say what you said... I respond with your team doesn't know how to win a cup (actually slash that to playoff round). Two way street, but that will be the theme.

Rebuild- The Wings brought in a number of pieces for specific reasons to help with the rebuild. Unique concept to you but I will guide you through it:

-Andrew Copp- comes in as the number 2 center. Signed for multiple years because he can swap to wing when a prospect is ready (Kasper/Soderblom/Berggren/etc). Instantly becomes another 200ft player which helps with Detroit's defensive struggles, while providing secondary scoring. Say it is too much? That is fine, the cap is going to go up before this is seen as a problem. He can help our abysmal offense and terrible GAA, so the contract is well worth it. Plus, with how well Detroit drafts, ELC contracts will shine with him in the lineup. He is one of 4 players signed after 2023-24.

-Kubalik - 30 goal scorer as a rookie. In three seasons on a progressively declining Chicago team, he was a consistent player. Has good size, and so far as already shown he can be effective on the poweplay and to add an offensive dynamic to the bottom 6. Also has a super friendly contract so he could be moved if need be, but young enough to be re-signed.

-Perron - Detroit's power play was AHL bad. Perron one of the best PP forwards in the NHL. Wealth of experience, leadership, plays with edge. Perfect mentor and also top 6 RW while having playoff pedigree as well. Nothing but positives with this signing.

-Chiarot - Say Detroit overpaid, thats fine. This is the one that I personally was most skeptical about. Bottom line, he is a good leader, locker room guy, is very physical and plays mean. Wings were soft, he brings a different element. Playing with Shea Weber he was at his best. Best case he replicates that with Mo. If not, salary cap increases before his cap hit becomes an issue. If this is the only bad contract (in all likely hood it may be), that is something the Wings can live with (unlike Muzzin for TOR right now).

-Maata - Perfect D pairing for Hronek. Stanley cup champ, defensively responsible, respected throughout the league. Didn't hit his ceiling but still a very solid veteran D. Also on a cap friendly contract so he could also be moved at the deadline.

Larkin/Bertuzzi can be re-signed or traded, SY has the flexibility to do what he wants. Seider and Raymond will be re-signed with no issues. Detroit has drafted exceptionally well in the last three years (since SY took over).

Number 2 prospect pool in the NHL. Plenty of room to parcel out future assets, stand pat and hope some hit, acquire capital. Soderblom looks like a steal, JBiak looks like a gem, the LHD pipeline is overstocked, the first rounders have been hitting.... that is exactly how teams want a rebuild. Mix in the cap space and lack of long term contracts, Detroit is positioned to compete in any of the next 2-4 years.

There are your rebuild moves champ. That doesn't even include depth signings of Haag and Pysyk for added leadership, Pontus Andreasson as a dark horse free agent who tore up the SHL (now it looks like he is an AHL guy after other moves), and Ville Husso. Husso's contract is pretty solid and now SY has flexibility to trade Ned or re-sign him as their tandem until Cossa is ready. This year Detroit can still sell, be well under the cap floor, acquire draft capital, and bring in better players going in to next season.

Any other questions?
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 36
#39
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Quoting: JaredOfLondon
but thats my entire point. The best thing here for the wings was to pull a chicago and sell everything that wasnt tied down. Land Bedard/Michov/Fantili and keep building up. These signings probably make them just good enough to get out of that race while tying them to the contracts.


Have you seen Detroit's lotto luck? We would end 32nd in the league and pick 3rd. Racking up last-place finishes and 3rd overall picks doesn't provide revenue or guarantee success.
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 38
#40
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Quoting: dtd_tank
Have you seen Detroit's lotto luck? We would end 32nd in the league and pick 3rd. Racking up last-place finishes and 3rd overall picks doesn't provide revenue or guarantee success.


the 4th over all pick with a tone of cap space you can use to buy the 18th and 20th over all picks with is a lot better than the 6th over all pick
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 42
#41
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Quoting: CoachCoach
Okay sir you wanted it. Rebuild breakdown just for you. Also, you are the one who took the pot shots as you initiated the negativity by saying "worse team" and "team not knowing how to rebuild". My response was adequate as tit-for-tat, you say what you said... I respond with your team doesn't know how to win a cup (actually slash that to playoff round). Two way street, but that will be the theme.

Rebuild- The Wings brought in a number of pieces for specific reasons to help with the rebuild. Unique concept to you but I will guide you through it:

-Andrew Copp- comes in as the number 2 center. Signed for multiple years because he can swap to wing when a prospect is ready (Kasper/Soderblom/Berggren/etc). Instantly becomes another 200ft player which helps with Detroit's defensive struggles, while providing secondary scoring. Say it is too much? That is fine, the cap is going to go up before this is seen as a problem. He can help our abysmal offense and terrible GAA, so the contract is well worth it. Plus, with how well Detroit drafts, ELC contracts will shine with him in the lineup. He is one of 4 players signed after 2023-24.

-Kubalik - 30 goal scorer as a rookie. In three seasons on a progressively declining Chicago team, he was a consistent player. Has good size, and so far as already shown he can be effective on the poweplay and to add an offensive dynamic to the bottom 6. Also has a super friendly contract so he could be moved if need be, but young enough to be re-signed.

-Perron - Detroit's power play was AHL bad. Perron one of the best PP forwards in the NHL. Wealth of experience, leadership, plays with edge. Perfect mentor and also top 6 RW while having playoff pedigree as well. Nothing but positives with this signing.

-Chiarot - Say Detroit overpaid, thats fine. This is the one that I personally was most skeptical about. Bottom line, he is a good leader, locker room guy, is very physical and plays mean. Wings were soft, he brings a different element. Playing with Shea Weber he was at his best. Best case he replicates that with Mo. If not, salary cap increases before his cap hit becomes an issue. If this is the only bad contract (in all likely hood it may be), that is something the Wings can live with (unlike Muzzin for TOR right now).

-Maata - Perfect D pairing for Hronek. Stanley cup champ, defensively responsible, respected throughout the league. Didn't hit his ceiling but still a very solid veteran D. Also on a cap friendly contract so he could also be moved at the deadline.

Larkin/Bertuzzi can be re-signed or traded, SY has the flexibility to do what he wants. Seider and Raymond will be re-signed with no issues. Detroit has drafted exceptionally well in the last three years (since SY took over).

Number 2 prospect pool in the NHL. Plenty of room to parcel out future assets, stand pat and hope some hit, acquire capital. Soderblom looks like a steal, JBiak looks like a gem, the LHD pipeline is overstocked, the first rounders have been hitting.... that is exactly how teams want a rebuild. Mix in the cap space and lack of long term contracts, Detroit is positioned to compete in any of the next 2-4 years.

There are your rebuild moves champ. That doesn't even include depth signings of Haag and Pysyk for added leadership, Pontus Andreasson as a dark horse free agent who tore up the SHL (now it looks like he is an AHL guy after other moves), and Ville Husso. Husso's contract is pretty solid and now SY has flexibility to trade Ned or re-sign him as their tandem until Cossa is ready. This year Detroit can still sell, be well under the cap floor, acquire draft capital, and bring in better players going in to next season.

Any other questions?


so, you've made a 30th over all team a 25th over all team, eaten a ton of cap space for no reason for.....reasons. Wow, that's a pretty terrible rebuild. Now the wings are gonna be terrible instead of really terrible for an extra 3 years because they'll need to wait even longer for the terrible old contracts to expire and it will hinder them in taking cap to get assets like proper rebuilding teams do.
thats a hilariously awful way to rebuild and i cant wait to watch you defend this team as it flounders for 5 more years and wastes Seider
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 52
#42
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Quoting: JaredOfLondon
the 4th over all pick with a tone of cap space you can use to buy the 18th and 20th over all picks with is a lot better than the 6th over all pick


But now this is approaching fantasy land, because the top 5 picks are never traded.

So your tldr is that we aren't having a successful rebuild because CHI tore it all down to become the biggest clown franchise in the league, in hope of either getting 1 franchise player or, if not, trading back and hoping to land franchise-altering players in the 2nd half of the 1st round.

I think I'll stick with Yzerman's plan on this one.
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 56
#43
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Quoting: Datsyukian
You lost all credibility when you said he's better than Kuch.

He is better than Panarin though.


The numbers don’t lie
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 58
#44
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Quoting: dtd_tank
But now this is approaching fantasy land, because the top 5 picks are never traded.

So your tldr is that we aren't having a successful rebuild because CHI tore it all down to become the biggest clown franchise in the league, in hope of either getting 1 franchise player or, if not, trading back and hoping to land franchise-altering players in the 2nd half of the 1st round.

I think I'll stick with Yzerman's plan on this one.


no one is trading the top 5 pick. The wings would simply be 5 wins or so worse without Copp et all. the difference between 27th and 30th over all this year was 8 points. that's not fantasy land.
You arnt having a successful rebuild because you're skipping a bunch of steps to try and speed run it and it's going to back fire by making the team not good enough to be worth it, but not bad enough to actually rebuild.
30 sept. 2022 à 14 h 59
#45
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Quoting: JaredOfLondon
no one is trading the top 5 pick. The wings would simply be 5 wins or so worse without Copp et all. the difference between 27th and 30th over all this year was 8 points. that's not fantasy land.
You arnt having a successful rebuild because you're skipping a bunch of steps to try and speed run it and it's going to back fire by making the team not good enough to be worth it, but not bad enough to actually rebuild.


Since your understanding is so well beyond mine, which team should we model ourselves after?
30 sept. 2022 à 15 h 12
#46
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Quoting: JaredOfLondon
so, you've made a 30th over all team a 25th over all team, eaten a ton of cap space for no reason for.....reasons. Wow, that's a pretty terrible rebuild. Now the wings are gonna be terrible instead of really terrible for an extra 3 years because they'll need to wait even longer for the terrible old contracts to expire and it will hinder them in taking cap to get assets like proper rebuilding teams do.
thats a hilariously awful way to rebuild and i cant wait to watch you defend this team as it flounders for 5 more years and wastes Seider


Since you don't like to give any details or statistics and believe your opinion is above all, I will just respond in kind to your own words. Again, you wanted the rebuild analysis, now that you lost that you want to go on opinions again lol.

SY turned a team with 19 wins into a team with the second best prospect pool, no bad long term contracts, and a team that still has more cap than they could hope to know what to do with. That is a pretty solid rebuild.
The Wings will probably finish 6-7th in the Atlantic with a chance to sneak into 5th. Another year outside the playoffs, but on the door step. The following year the Wings are most likely fighting for a wild card spot, depending on how the rest of the Atlantic progresses/regresses. Again, the worst contract Detroit has in year three is Chiarot at 32 for 2 years @ 4.75M. With the cap increase, that will be nothing. Outside of Chiarot, and I know you hate this part, but Detroit only has 4 OTHER CONTRACTS SIGNED, WITH NOT ONE BEING MORE THAN 3 YEARS. Really don't understand how there is any hinderance, but I digress, I know you are grasping at straws.
Like proper rebuilding teams do....hmm, tough one. So MR. GM expert. What rebuilds have worked in your mind? When does one officially start? When does it end? What is a good rebuild? Does it mean winning the Cup? Does it mean multiple Stanley Cups? Seems to me like Toronto is clinging to the nothin that it is being competitive. "Toronto doesn't need to rebuild because they are always in the playoffs and a cup contender...." I seem to remember a team doing that before. They made the playoffs for like two decades straight....kept bringing in older players and relying on overachieving depth players.... led to them falling off a cliff? Oh right, that was the Holland Red Wings. Sounds familiar.

Once again, you have no depth to your stance. You once again take a "pop" shot saying that you believe you are smarter than SY and the Red Wings organization. From Terribly bad to bad in three years? Not doing the rebuild the way you believe it should be done so its not proper? Awful way to rebuild and they will flounder for five more years? Sounds like you're taking shots. I don't blame you, I would to if in my lifetime I lived through a rival team have: Red Wings "dead wing" era, then watched them kick our a** for years, set records, win cups, go back to the basement for 7 years, and now have one of the brightest futures of any NHL team, and probably win another cup before we win one.

I am done dealing with your hissy fit unless you can articulate some counter points that support your argument. Until then, have fun being miserable on here lol it is meant to be fun and talk hockey.
30 sept. 2022 à 15 h 28
#47
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Rejoint: mai 2019
Messages: 20,124
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Quoting: CoachCoach
Since you don't like to give any details or statistics and believe your opinion is above all, I will just respond in kind to your own words. Again, you wanted the rebuild analysis, now that you lost that you want to go on opinions again lol.

SY turned a team with 19 wins into a team with the second best prospect pool, no bad long term contracts, and a team that still has more cap than they could hope to know what to do with. That is a pretty solid rebuild.
The Wings will probably finish 6-7th in the Atlantic with a chance to sneak into 5th. Another year outside the playoffs, but on the door step. The following year the Wings are most likely fighting for a wild card spot, depending on how the rest of the Atlantic progresses/regresses. Again, the worst contract Detroit has in year three is Chiarot at 32 for 2 years 4.75M. With the cap increase, that will be nothing. Outside of Chiarot, and I know you hate this part, but Detroit only has 4 OTHER CONTRACTS SIGNED, WITH NOT ONE BEING MORE THAN 3 YEARS. Really don't understand how there is any hinderance, but I digress, I know you are grasping at straws.
Like proper rebuilding teams do....hmm, tough one. So MR. GM expert. What rebuilds have worked in your mind? When does one officially start? When does it end? What is a good rebuild? Does it mean winning the Cup? Does it mean multiple Stanley Cups? Seems to me like Toronto is clinging to the nothin that it is being competitive. "Toronto doesn't need to rebuild because they are always in the playoffs and a cup contender...." I seem to remember a team doing that before. They made the playoffs for like two decades straight....kept bringing in older players and relying on overachieving depth players.... led to them falling off a cliff? Oh right, that was the Holland Red Wings. Sounds familiar.

Once again, you have no depth to your stance. You once again take a "pop" shot saying that you believe you are smarter than SY and the Red Wings organization. From Terribly bad to bad in three years? Not doing the rebuild the way you believe it should be done so its not proper? Awful way to rebuild and they will flounder for five more years? Sounds like you're taking shots. I don't blame you, I would to if in my lifetime I lived through a rival team have: Red Wings "dead wing" era, then watched them kick our a** for years, set records, win cups, go back to the basement for 7 years, and now have one of the brightest futures of any NHL team, and probably win another cup before we win one.

I am done dealing with your hissy fit unless you can articulate some counter points that support your argument. Until then, have fun being miserable on here lol it is meant to be fun and talk hockey.


ah yes, stats and numbers are fun arnt they!
Let's take a look at that
Stevie Y turned a team with 19 wins in 56 games (a 34% winning team) into a team with 32 wins in 82 games (a 39% winning team). Which is a grand total of 4 more wins over a full season. IE fluke numbers.
as far as having the 2nd best prospect pool in the league, that's hilarious. Let me guess, a craig button ranking? And even if it was official somehow, you're team is awful you are supposed to have a good prospect pool. The Leafs have had a top 10 prospect pool for like 15 years if you wanna find the right ranker. That's not a solid rebuild, that's random noise and someone really liking a couple B prospects the wings have more than some other teams B prospects
There was a 32 point difference between the wings and the Bruins last year, The wings have zero realistic chance at a wild card any time soon, they are a bad team where most of their players are already past their peak performance ages, Bertuzzi, Larkin, Copp, et all are just going to get worse if anything by the time the wings are 'ready'.
So, since you seem to be really struggling to make the connection here, those three years that the contracts eat up are important rebuilding years. Yzerman went out and made the team better but not by any decent amount, instead of being worse and not spending a bunch of money, he reduced the teams ability to get high end tallent through the draft and through their ability to take on bad contracts. an extra 10+ million buys you a lot of draft and prospect capital at the deadline and draft. So if in 3 years, the wings will have all this cap space (if they dont re-sign a bunch of their guys to big bloated contracts that take them into their mid 30s, which they probably will) then you've still got a team that isnt very good and now your banking on prospects, most who arnt even very good, to pan out and carry you out of the darkness.
that's a bad idea.
You wanna know when a rebuild ends? When your youth that you've accumulated through said rebuild is able to carry the team to the top half of the league at the very least. It's also funny that you bring up Holland, because if he was still in Detroit, their offseason would have looked real similar to what happend with Yzerman.

You can tongue bath yzerman all you want, but if all you got is repeating "2nd best prospect pool in the league" ad nausium, then you're in for a rough one champ.
30 sept. 2022 à 15 h 28
#48
Banni
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Rejoint: mai 2018
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Quoting: Db1899
lol yeah definitely a homer for a team that I can care less about.

Cherry picking lol - those are 5 stats that Robertson destroys panarin - goals for per 60 (increasing the rate his team scores), expected goals per 60 (driving offense), CF/60 (driving possession).

What stats is Panarin better in? Robertson had more even strength points than Panarin, the only stat Panarin is much better in is getting secondary assists on the powerplay

So, you're capable of caring about the Stars less, is what you're saying. That's apparent, you care about them, got it.

Drop the Panarin argument entirely, I was just throwing out names off the top of my mind of consistently producing wingers, but to argue he's better than Huberdeau or Kucherov is completely asinine.
30 sept. 2022 à 16 h 14
#49
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Rejoint: juill. 2022
Messages: 2,877
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Quoting: JaredOfLondon
ah yes, stats and numbers are fun arnt they!
Let's take a look at that
Stevie Y turned a team with 19 wins in 56 games (a 34% winning team) into a team with 32 wins in 82 games (a 39% winning team). Which is a grand total of 4 more wins over a full season. IE fluke numbers.
as far as having the 2nd best prospect pool in the league, that's hilarious. Let me guess, a craig button ranking? And even if it was official somehow, you're team is awful you are supposed to have a good prospect pool. The Leafs have had a top 10 prospect pool for like 15 years if you wanna find the right ranker. That's not a solid rebuild, that's random noise and someone really liking a couple B prospects the wings have more than some other teams B prospects
There was a 32 point difference between the wings and the Bruins last year, The wings have zero realistic chance at a wild card any time soon, they are a bad team where most of their players are already past their peak performance ages, Bertuzzi, Larkin, Copp, et all are just going to get worse if anything by the time the wings are 'ready'.
So, since you seem to be really struggling to make the connection here, those three years that the contracts eat up are important rebuilding years. Yzerman went out and made the team better but not by any decent amount, instead of being worse and not spending a bunch of money, he reduced the teams ability to get high end tallent through the draft and through their ability to take on bad contracts. an extra 10+ million buys you a lot of draft and prospect capital at the deadline and draft. So if in 3 years, the wings will have all this cap space (if they dont re-sign a bunch of their guys to big bloated contracts that take them into their mid 30s, which they probably will) then you've still got a team that isnt very good and now your banking on prospects, most who arnt even very good, to pan out and carry you out of the darkness.
that's a bad idea.
You wanna know when a rebuild ends? When your youth that you've accumulated through said rebuild is able to carry the team to the top half of the league at the very least. It's also funny that you bring up Holland, because if he was still in Detroit, their offseason would have looked real similar to what happend with Yzerman.

You can tongue bath yzerman all you want, but if all you got is repeating "2nd best prospect pool in the league" ad nausium, then you're in for a rough one champ.


So cute, you try so hard. Look anywhere, on any platform, in any market, and combine them to formulate your own prospect rankings. In 90-99% you will find Detroit in the top 5. You will also find Toronto in the bottom 10 if you go anywhere outside of Toronto. I would love to see a "Maple Leaf tops the prospect rankings" list. Clearly it has been working for you as you have so many knocking on the door. Honestly, as in most posts, you are the one battling against the vast majority. With all that wisdom you would think teams would give you a call.

Just because it is "in your opinion" that certain prospects are A/B/C, does not make it so. You have little/no idea on the prospect pool in Detroit, just like most people have zero/no idea on Torontos, or any other team outside their own for that matter. On sheer volume alone, Detroit is in better standing. Based on junior/amateur/recency success/development, Detroit is in better standing. So there are more prospects to hit, and fewer issues on busts.

The Atlantic is the most competitive division it seems, and each team has its challenges.
1- Toronto has issues in the playoffs but they are good enough to get there. If cap issues become a problem as they have before, the decline will begin. If Matthews walks, the decline begins. Goaltending doesn't mean as much in the regular season if you can score 5-6 a night.
2- Tampa is Tampa. They have cap issues but until they regress you can't bet against them to make the playoffs. Best goaltender in the league, solid.
3- Florida revamped but they aren't as strong. Defense downgraded but they will still be good. Cap issues like others at the top.
4- Boston has injuries to start, kind of all in with the old band. Hard to imagine them not taking a step back after this year.
5- Ottawa improved a lot, still unproven (like Detroit and Buffalo). Young NHL players, room to grow.
6- Detroit improved a lot, still unproven. Young, flexible cap, will have veterans to usher in the new wave of players.
7- Buffalo improved. Young and will only get better.
8- Montreal. Bedard. Prospects.

There are too many questions to say what teams will go up and down the standings. No guarantee Toronto stays as good as they are either, can't say one without the other "opinion man"

You seem to assume that once someone hits 30 they regress. Not really, that is why you see so many 30-35 year olds win their first Stanley cup. If Larkin is 32 and the number 2 center putting up close to a PPG, thats a recipe for success. If Copp is a 33 year old 3rd line winger who can score and is defensively sound, who did show he can perform in the playoffs, thats a win. If Chiarot is the grizzled 5-7 assistant captain D who is mean and hard to play against in the playoffs, most teams take that. Again, you ASSUME the bloated contracts are coming because that is how you process things when Toronto signs Joey T and Marleau, JT, Muzzin. Yzerman has shown no indication to go out and actively over reach.

You make mention of SY making the team more competitive, and that the jump from 30-25 is nothing. You then say Yzerman wasn't smart because he is making the team better and thus less likely to get better picks.....Seider was projected in the teens, and was taken 6th. So... by your logic the jump to be better doesn't hurt the loss in draft pick slot number. Also, Yzerman isn't bringing in high end talent right? You said he lost the ability to take bad contracts? Pretty sure over the next three seasons Detroit is top 5 in cap space. Factor in extensions and Detroit is still very comfortable.

Finally, I will say I would gladly take these prospects in order. Since YOU (again opinions are something) can say the prospects aren't good, but myself, and most normal NHL fans can agree that just isn't the case.
Edvinsson (class of his own that TOR doesn't have anyone comparable)
IN ORDER:
Wallinder
Buium
Soderblom
Kasper
Berggren
Knies
Niemela
Johansson
Hiro


EDITED: just missed: Steeves/DSA/Busch
30 sept. 2022 à 16 h 23
#50
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Rejoint: mai 2019
Messages: 20,124
Mentions "j'aime": 7,496
Quoting: CoachCoach
So cute, you try so hard. Look anywhere, on any platform, in any market, and combine them to formulate your own prospect rankings. In 90-99% you will find Detroit in the top 5. You will also find Toronto in the bottom 10 if you go anywhere outside of Toronto. I would love to see a "Maple Leaf tops the prospect rankings" list. Clearly it has been working for you as you have so many knocking on the door. Honestly, as in most posts, you are the one battling against the vast majority. With all that wisdom you would think teams would give you a call.

Just because it is "in your opinion" that certain prospects are A/B/C, does not make it so. You have little/no idea on the prospect pool in Detroit, just like most people have zero/no idea on Torontos, or any other team outside their own for that matter. On sheer volume alone, Detroit is in better standing. Based on junior/amateur/recency success/development, Detroit is in better standing. So there are more prospects to hit, and fewer issues on busts.

The Atlantic is the most competitive division it seems, and each team has its challenges.
1- Toronto has issues in the playoffs but they are good enough to get there. If cap issues become a problem as they have before, the decline will begin. If Matthews walks, the decline begins. Goaltending doesn't mean as much in the regular season if you can score 5-6 a night.
2- Tampa is Tampa. They have cap issues but until they regress you can't bet against them to make the playoffs. Best goaltender in the league, solid.
3- Florida revamped but they aren't as strong. Defense downgraded but they will still be good. Cap issues like others at the top.
4- Boston has injuries to start, kind of all in with the old band. Hard to imagine them not taking a step back after this year.
5- Ottawa improved a lot, still unproven (like Detroit and Buffalo). Young NHL players, room to grow.
6- Detroit improved a lot, still unproven. Young, flexible cap, will have veterans to usher in the new wave of players.
7- Buffalo improved. Young and will only get better.
8- Montreal. Bedard. Prospects.

There are too many questions to say what teams will go up and down the standings. No guarantee Toronto stays as good as they are either, can't say one without the other "opinion man"

You seem to assume that once someone hits 30 they regress. Not really, that is why you see so many 30-35 year olds win their first Stanley cup. If Larkin is 32 and the number 2 center putting up close to a PPG, thats a recipe for success. If Copp is a 33 year old 3rd line winger who can score and is defensively sound, who did show he can perform in the playoffs, thats a win. If Chiarot is the grizzled 5-7 assistant captain D who is mean and hard to play against in the playoffs, most teams take that. Again, you ASSUME the bloated contracts are coming because that is how you process things when Toronto signs Joey T and Marleau, JT, Muzzin. Yzerman has shown no indication to go out and actively over reach.

You make mention of SY making the team more competitive, and that the jump from 30-25 is nothing. You then say Yzerman wasn't smart because he is making the team better and thus less likely to get better picks.....Seider was projected in the teens, and was taken 6th. So... by your logic the jump to be better doesn't hurt the loss in draft pick slot number. Also, Yzerman isn't bringing in high end talent right? You said he lost the ability to take bad contracts? Pretty sure over the next three seasons Detroit is top 5 in cap space. Factor in extensions and Detroit is still very comfortable.

Finally, I will say I would gladly take these prospects in order. Since YOU (again opinions are something) can say the prospects aren't good, but myself, and most normal NHL fans can agree that just isn't the case.
Edvinsson (class of his own that TOR doesn't have anyone comparable)
IN ORDER:
Wallinder
Buium
Soderblom
Kasper
Berggren
Knies
Niemela
Johansson
Hiro


EDITED: just missed: Steeves/DSA/Busch


lol, oh man. Battling "the vast majority" eh? oh buddy, you are not the vast majority.
Like, this has been fun but if you're gonna start saying things like that and that "detroit has improved a lot" or think that comparing a team that just had 115 points and hasnt picked in the 1st round for 2 years' prospect pool to the wings then we're done here. You're so far gone it's hopless. Enjoy your rebuild, you're gonna have to enjoy it with how much longer it's gonna take.
 
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