Forums/Armchair-GM

You cannot ice 16 forwards

Créé par: jonh514
Date de création initiale: 19 août 2022
Publié: 20 août 2022
Équipe: 2022-23 Canadiens de Montréal
Description
We all know that the goal for the Habs is to fatten up the stats of their forwards on expiring deals to sell them at the TDL. Dadonov, Monahan, Byron (if healthy) and Drouin are all starting the season on the block.

The issue is that in order to get value for them, you have to Play them... And not on your bottom line either, they need a chance to show what they can do to help a team in a top 9 role.

Add to that that Slafkovsky skipped the WJC to start the season in MTL and he also needs to play in a top 9 role, and that Armia & Hoffman need quality ice time if we ever hope to trade them ... This season is already a bit of a disaster. What can be done?

We need clarity on Byron's health. Is he done?
We need to create opportunities for Drouin, Monahan, Dadonov by moving out the players we know we can get value for today. Namely Dvorak and Anderson. It doesn't even matter if you win those trades because it's addition by subtraction. We need to create space for those rehabilitating players to play in middle 6 positions.
Signatures de joueurs autonomes
RFAANSCAP HIT
Dach, Kirby22 500 000 $
Transactions
MTL
SEA
  1. Anderson, Josh
  2. Dvorak, Christian
Détails additionnels:
Anywhere as long as we bring back a 1st in 2023 or 2024 and a RHD age 27 and younger
Rachats de contrats
  • Karl Alzner: 833 333 $
ANNÉE DE REPÊCHAGE1E RONDE2E RONDE3E RONDE4E RONDE5E RONDE6E RONDE7E RONDE
2023
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2024
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2025
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TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS Info-bulleBONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
2382 500 000 $68 889 999 $1 132 500 $5 490 000 $13 610 001 $
Ailier gaucheCentreAilier droit
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Caufield, Cole
880 833 $
AG
RFA - 1
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Suzuki, Nick
7 875 000 $
C
UFA - 8
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Dadonov, Evgeni
5 000 000 $
AG, AD
M-NTC
UFA - 1
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Drouin, Jonathan
5 500 000 $
C, AG
M-NTC
UFA - 1
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Monahan, Sean
6 375 000 $
C, AG, AD
M-NTC
UFA - 1
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Gallagher, Brendan
6 500 000 $
AD
M-NTC, NMC
UFA - 5
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Slafkovsky, Juraj
950 000 $
AG, AD
RFA - 3
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Dach, Kirby
2 500 000 $
C, AD
RFA - 4
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Armia, Joel
3 400 000 $
AD, AG
UFA - 3
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Pitlick, Rem
1 100 000 $
AG, C, AD
UFA - 2
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Evans, Jake
1 700 000 $
C
UFA - 3
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Hoffman, Mike
4 500 000 $
AG
UFA - 2
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Pezzetta, Michael
750 000 $
AG, AD
RFA - 1
Défenseur gaucherDéfenseur droitierGardien de but
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Matheson, Michael
4 875 000 $
DG
M-NTC
UFA - 4
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Savard, David
3 500 000 $
DD
UFA - 3
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Allen, Jake
2 875 000 $
G
UFA - 1
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Edmundson, Joel
3 500 000 $
DG/DD
M-NTC
UFA - 2
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Barron, Justin
925 000 $
DD
RFA - 2
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Montembeault, Samuel
1 000 000 $
G
UFA - 2
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Guhle, Kaiden
863 333 $
DG/DD
RFA - 3
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Wideman, Chris
762 500 $
DD
UFA - 2
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Harris, Jordan
842 500 $
DG/DD
RFA - 1
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Schueneman, Corey
750 000 $
DG/DD
UFA - 1
Laissés de côtéListe des blessés (IR)Liste des blessés à long terme (LTIR)
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Price, Carey
10 500 000 $
G
NMC
UFA - 4
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Byron, Paul
3 400 000 $
AG, AD
UFA - 1

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20 août 2022 à 7 h 44
#1
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Anderson is here to stay unless a team makes an over the top offer.

You don't move out good players to boost the value of expiring contracts cause that just leaves you with crap and fostering a losing environment. Slafkovsky, Guhle and possibly Barron will start in Laval.

I think you have to run with what you have and hope those player boost their own value. IMO the lineup will look something like

Caufield-Suzuki-Dadonov
Drouin-Dach-Anderson
Hoffman-Monahan-Gallagher
Armia-Dvorak-Evans
Pitlick, Pezzetta
Matheson-Savad
Edmundson-Wideman
Harris-Barron
Schueneman
Allen
Montembeault

Byron, Price on LTIR
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20 août 2022 à 7 h 51
#2
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Quoting: Campabee
Anderson is here to stay unless a team makes an over the top offer.

You don't move out good players to boost the value of expiring contracts cause that just leaves you with crap and fostering a losing environment. Slafkovsky, Guhle and possibly Barron will start in Laval.

I think you have to run with what you have and hope those player boost their own value. IMO the lineup will look something like

Caufield-Suzuki-Dadonov
Drouin-Dach-Anderson
Hoffman-Monahan-Gallagher
Armia-Dvorak-Evans
Pitlick, Pezzetta
Matheson-Savad
Edmundson-Wideman
Harris-Barron
Schueneman
Allen
Montembeault

Byron, Price on LTIR


Appreciate the response!

You have Dvorak and Evans in 4th line roles and Pitlick in the stands. How is that not Terrible asset management. All 3 of those guys deserve based on their play to play minimum in a 3rd line role next season. Evans had 29pts, Dvorak under MSL was on a 60pts pace with the best faceoff percentage on the team. Pitlick had an incredible offensive output and made us all forget about Lehkonen.

What is it going to do for those players mentally and emotionally to be relegated to 11th, 12th, and 13th forward?

It's a complete waste of their talent and it sends the wrong message
20 août 2022 à 8 h 9
#3
FanOfAllTeams
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Quoting: jonh514
Appreciate the response!

You have Dvorak and Evans in 4th line roles and Pitlick in the stands. How is that not Terrible asset management. All 3 of those guys deserve based on their play to play minimum in a 3rd line role next season. Evans had 29pts, Dvorak under MSL was on a 60pts pace with the best faceoff percentage on the team. Pitlick had an incredible offensive output and made us all forget about Lehkonen.

What is it going to do for those players mentally and emotionally to be relegated to 11th, 12th, and 13th forward?

It's a complete waste of their talent and it sends the wrong message


It help with this a bit short term. I heard Monahan is out until November. One less forward. When is Drouin coming off ir?
20 août 2022 à 8 h 12
#4
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Quoting: FanOfAllTeams
It help with this a bit short term. I heard Monahan is out until November. One less forward. When is Drouin coming off ir?


He is off IR now
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20 août 2022 à 8 h 16
#5
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Quoting: FanOfAllTeams
It help with this a bit short term. I heard Monahan is out until November. One less forward. When is Drouin coming off ir?


Hughes said Monahan is healthy. Said he might start game 1 or game 4 but he should play the majority of the season. Monahan to his credit said he is determined to score more points than Kadri in 2022-23 which would be awesome.
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20 août 2022 à 8 h 17
#6
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Quoting: jonh514
He is off IR now


I feel like another deal is in the works because of too many forwards. Teams might be willing to make a deal of some kind. This issue is most teams don’t have cap and a lot of these forwards aren’t cheap. If nothing more comes then demotions are going to happen after camp.
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20 août 2022 à 8 h 22
#7
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Quoting: jonh514
Hughes said Monahan is healthy. Said he might start game 1 or game 4 but he should play the majority of the season. Monahan to his credit said he is determined to score more points than Kadri in 2022-23 which would be awesome.

That would give value at the deadline for certain. of the expiring contracts I’d Drouin, dadanov, Allen, Monahan, byron. I could see 2-3 traded this season with retained salary. Allen could go to Vegas but don’t hold your breath.
20 août 2022 à 8 h 23
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Quoting: FanOfAllTeams
I feel like another deal is in the works because of too many forwards. Teams might be willing to make a deal of some kind. This issue is most teams don’t have cap and a lot of these forwards aren’t cheap. If nothing more comes then demotions are going to happen after camp.


I agree, hence the post. Does not make sense to bench players who had 30+ points last season at age 25.
20 août 2022 à 8 h 26
#9
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Quoting: jonh514
I agree, hence the post. Does not make sense to bench players who had 30+ points last season at age 25.


Also, some of these forward have negative value due to the high hits. Right now today. Hoffman, armia, Monahan Are for sure in that boat. You don’t want to move out picks as a rebuilder so what can you really do?
20 août 2022 à 8 h 27
#10
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Quoting: FanOfAllTeams
That would give value at the deadline for certain. of the expiring contracts I’d Drouin, dadanov, Allen, Monahan, byron. I could see 2-3 traded this season with retained salary. Allen could go to Vegas but don’t hold your breath.


Totally and with so many prospects potentially graduating next season to the NHL we should create opportunities for them.
20 août 2022 à 9 h 18
#11
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We do Hab fans dream that they can trade away high cap and middling players, Anderson and Armia and expect a good return that doesn't get similar cap back.
Both players TRADE value is zero right now due to their contracts and play.
20 août 2022 à 9 h 20
#12
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Quoting: palhal
We do Hab fans dream that they can trade away high cap and middling players, Anderson and Armia and expect a good return that doesn't get similar cap back.
Both players TRADE value is zero right now due to their contracts and play.


Anderson and Armia are not on the same level and you are a jerk for suggesting it. In fact even Armia has value just based on his World Champion play.
20 août 2022 à 9 h 23
#13
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Quoting: jonh514
Anderson and Armia are not on the same level and you are a jerk for suggesting it. In fact even Armia has value just based on his World Champion play.


In todays NHL, third line wingers don't get paid 5.5m or 3.4m to suggest otherwise is to blatant and blind "homerism", World Champion(ship) play...meaningless.
And if the Habs are so good....why does Anderson waive his M NTC to go to a non playoff team?
20 août 2022 à 10 h 20
#14
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Quoting: palhal
In todays NHL, third line wingers don't get paid 5.5m or 3.4m to suggest otherwise is to blatant and blind "homerism", World Champion(ship) play...meaningless.
And if the Habs are so good....why does Anderson waive his M NTC to go to a non playoff team?


Sure thing sir. Glad I have you around to explain it to me. The all skill no physical play style of hockey has worked out wonderfully for your Leafs hasn't it?

Keep icing exactly the same lineup as every other year where you exit in the first round of the playoffs and expect different results. It must've been the Goalie's fault right?

If the Leafs had a player like Anderson to push back and play a slightly different style of play, they might have actually been able to win a cup.

The Homerism is equally blatant on your side where you think Nylander and Tavares are the players you need to help Matthews and Marner win a cup.
20 août 2022 à 10 h 50
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Quoting: jonh514
Sure thing sir. Glad I have you around to explain it to me. The all skill no physical play style of hockey has worked out wonderfully for your Leafs hasn't it?

Keep icing exactly the same lineup as every other year where you exit in the first round of the playoffs and expect different results. It must've been the Goalie's fault right?

If the Leafs had a player like Anderson to push back and play a slightly different style of play, they might have actually been able to win a cup.

The Homerism is equally blatant on your side where you think Nylander and Tavares are the players you need to help Matthews and Marner win a cup.


Can you answer the part where @palhal asked why Anderson would waive his M-NTC to go to a non-playoff team? I am curious too. Thanks!
20 août 2022 à 11 h 3
#16
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Also, I definitely believe Anderson and Armia have positive value on any team given their style of play, and I do believe any team looking to make a playoff run would be glad to have them.

However, for a team to take 2 players totaling almost 9M in cap space until 2025 while expecting them to give a 1st and a young RHD is pretty ludicrous.

Most teams that are ready to push for the playoffs would rather give those assets up for more quality acquisitions with less term and the teams that need to fill out their rosters with NHL players (see Arizona), would most likely not be giving a 1st or a young RHD IMO.

Thoughts?
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20 août 2022 à 11 h 41
#17
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Quoting: jonh514
Appreciate the response!

You have Dvorak and Evans in 4th line roles and Pitlick in the stands. How is that not Terrible asset management. All 3 of those guys deserve based on their play to play minimum in a 3rd line role next season. Evans had 29pts, Dvorak under MSL was on a 60pts pace with the best faceoff percentage on the team. Pitlick had an incredible offensive output and made us all forget about Lehkonen.

What is it going to do for those players mentally and emotionally to be relegated to 11th, 12th, and 13th forward?

It's a complete waste of their talent and it sends the wrong message


Ok so, the reason I have Dvorak and Evans on the 4th line is because they aren't paid as much as Monahan and Drouin. While it isn't ideal to have them in a 4th line role we still need to showcase Monahan and Drouin, the sooner we can move them out the sooner we can move Dvorak and Evans to more suitable roles.

Pitlick on the other hand had an unsustainable shooting percentage and os more of a replacement level player. I don't mind having him in the stands until we can move some of the other guys out. Once they are moved Pitlick is a good guy to put in on the 4th line as Dvorak and Evans move around.

These guys are all veteran players at this point and being relegated to 11, 12 and 13th forwards will not affect their mentality or emotions very much and if it does then they simply need to stop being such big babies.
20 août 2022 à 12 h 1
#18
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Quoting: jonh514
Sure thing sir. Glad I have you around to explain it to me. The all skill no physical play style of hockey has worked out wonderfully for your Leafs hasn't it?

Keep icing exactly the same lineup as every other year where you exit in the first round of the playoffs and expect different results. It must've been the Goalie's fault right?

If the Leafs had a player like Anderson to push back and play a slightly different style of play, they might have actually been able to win a cup.

The Homerism is equally blatant on your side where you think Nylander and Tavares are the players you need to help Matthews and Marner win a cup.


Gee, can't you even present a good logical argument when trying present your point of view. Why even bring me into the Nylander/Tavares discussion? Gee, I never liked the contracts of the Leafs "big four" and wished they the contracts had been more in line with "comparables" at the time.
The fact that a last place team are near the cap, and want to dump two b ad contracts kinda shows the the trade value of these players , Armia and Anderson.
You might like their play on the ice but their cap and term are poor.
Now Anderson and Armia might be good TDL trades on their last year of their contracts but certainly not now.
20 août 2022 à 13 h 19
#19
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Quoting: palhal
Gee, can't you even present a good logical argument when trying present your point of view. Why even bring me into the Nylander/Tavares discussion? Gee, I never liked the contracts of the Leafs "big four" and wished they the contracts had been more in line with "comparables" at the time.
The fact that a last place team are near the cap, and want to dump two b ad contracts kinda shows the the trade value of these players , Armia and Anderson.
You might like their play on the ice but their cap and term are poor.
Now Anderson and Armia might be good TDL trades on their last year of their contracts but certainly not now.


Just shows your total lack of focus on anything but pure skill. Hockey remains a physical game and it takes a balance of skill and physicality to win. Plus I was offering a trade for Dvorak and Anderson, and YOU brought up Armia, so yeah I brought up Tavares & Nylander.
20 août 2022 à 13 h 29
#20
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Quoting: Campabee
Ok so, the reason I have Dvorak and Evans on the 4th line is because they aren't paid as much as Monahan and Drouin. While it isn't ideal to have them in a 4th line role we still need to showcase Monahan and Drouin, the sooner we can move them out the sooner we can move Dvorak and Evans to more suitable roles.

Pitlick on the other hand had an unsustainable shooting percentage and os more of a replacement level player. I don't mind having him in the stands until we can move some of the other guys out. Once they are moved Pitlick is a good guy to put in on the 4th line as Dvorak and Evans move around.

These guys are all veteran players at this point and being relegated to 11, 12 and 13th forwards will not affect their mentality or emotions very much and if it does then they simply need to stop being such big babies.


The thing is that players like Dvorak, Evans, Pitlick, Ylonen... They will feel that the team has lost faith in them and it will create a "me culture" instead of a "we culture" regardless of their maturity. "Why am I the guy on the 4th line or riding the pine and not Drouin?" It's human nature.

It makes more sense to move some players on reasonable if not max value trades to make sure we balance out mix of vets and prospects.

I like Anderson & Dvorak but in 2025 Anderson will be 31 and Dvorak will be 29. Does it make sense to keep them around so they can help us once we get there? I'm sure there will be a ton of vets available in 2025 who we can pick up when we need them. Anyway... Better to lose some guys than to have the team turn on one another.
20 août 2022 à 13 h 57
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Hey @jonh514, I think you might have missed my comment on the thread. Super curious to hear your thoughts smile
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20 août 2022 à 14 h 2
#22
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Quoting: QualityTrades1
Can you answer the part where palhal asked why Anderson would waive his M-NTC to go to a non-playoff team? I am curious too. Thanks!


Hi. So Seattle is just a team with cap space. I actually would love to see a trade to Philly for Risto (though most of my fellow Habs fans think Risto is crap and overpaid and most Philly fans think Anderson is crap and overpaid... So maybe it's a bad deal. I think it helps both teams). To be clear I posted Seattle because there are not a ton of Seattle fans on this site and I wanted to hear general comments and not the comments of a specific team's fans.
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20 août 2022 à 14 h 4
#23
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Quoting: QualityTrades1
Also, I definitely believe Anderson and Armia have positive value on any team given their style of play, and I do believe any team looking to make a playoff run would be glad to have them.

However, for a team to take 2 players totaling almost 9M in cap space until 2025 while expecting them to give a 1st and a young RHD is pretty ludicrous.

Most teams that are ready to push for the playoffs would rather give those assets up for more quality acquisitions with less term and the teams that need to fill out their rosters with NHL players (see Arizona), would most likely not be giving a 1st or a young RHD IMO.

Thoughts?


I never mentioned trading Armia. I said Dvorak & Anderson. I believe it would be 2 trades to 2 isolated teams. Maybe Minny, Washington or Colorado for Dvorak. Maybe Philly or Edmonton for Anderson. Habs would need to take salary and possibly terms back on bad contracts. Unless they find a deal like Anderson for Risto 1-for-1
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20 août 2022 à 14 h 20
#24
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Quoting: jonh514
I never mentioned trading Armia. I said Dvorak & Anderson. I believe it would be 2 trades to 2 isolated teams. Maybe Minny, Washington or Colorado for Dvorak. Maybe Philly or Edmonton for Anderson. Habs would need to take salary and possibly terms back on bad contracts. Unless they find a deal like Anderson for Risto 1-for-1


Makes sense. Thank you!
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20 août 2022 à 14 h 32
#25
Go Habs Go
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Waive Monahan. No concern with him getting claimed. He can find his game in the AHL and be available when there's an opportunity. If he's claimed it's a free 1st, we only stand to gain by losing him.

Pezzetta is an energy player that's a dime a dozen. No substantial loss if he's claimed either.

I like Schueneman, but he's a pending free agent. He's either a 7D we can afford to lose, or he has an amazing year and earns a contract elsewhere. Even then he's trade bait.
 
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