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Chychrun

Créé par: PhilsWeiner
Date de création initiale: 17 août 2022
Publié: 17 août 2022
Équipe: 2022-23 Maple Leafs de Toronto
Explications
Gonna break down this trade and why it could work.
Transactions
1.
TOR
  1. Chychrun, Jakob
ARI
  1. Muzzin, Jake
  2. Sandin, Rasmus [Droits de RFA]
  3. Robertson, Nicholas
  4. 2023 1e round pick (TOR)
Détails additionnels:
Sandin - Very clear he's not staying in toronto. Not much room in the depth chart for him, and he still has a top 4 upside and can play both sides. Can play in the Yotes top 4.

Robertson - Been a slow bloomer (I think mostly due to his size). With rookies like Amirov, Knies, Der-Arguchintzev moving further along in the system, it makes robertson more expendable on toronto's end.

Muzzin - Only has two years remaining at a decent hap hit (The yotes aren't going to be pressed for cap anytime soon), and he can offer leadership and morale for the rookies on arizona. He's becoming more injury prone, all the better if he goes on LTIR.
2.
TOR
  1. 2023 4e round pick (ANA)
ANA
  1. Holl, Justin
Détails additionnels:
Any team willing to take him on for the final year of his contract.
ANNÉE DE REPÊCHAGERONDE 1RONDE 2RONDE 3RONDE 4RONDE 5RONDE 6RONDE 7
2023
Logo de TOR
Logo de OTT
Logo de ANA
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
2024
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de OTT
2025
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
Logo de TOR
TAILLE DE LA FORMATIONPLAFOND SALARIALCAP HITEXCÉDENTS Info-bulleBONISESPACE SOUS LE PLAFOND SALARIAL
2282 500 000 $81 718 116 $212 500 $0 $781 884 $
Ailier gaucheCentreAilier droit
Logo de TOR
Bunting, Michael
950 000 $
AG
UFA - 1
Logo de TOR
Matthews, Auston
11 640 250 $
C
UFA - 2
Logo de TOR
Marner, Mitchell
10 903 000 $
AD
UFA - 3
Logo de TOR
Järnkrok, Calle
2 100 000 $
AG, C, AD
NTC
UFA - 4
Logo de TOR
Tavares, John
11 000 000 $
C
NMC
UFA - 3
Logo de TOR
Nylander, William
6 962 366 $
AD, AG
UFA - 2
Logo de TOR
Engvall, Pierre
2 250 000 $
AG, C
UFA - 1
Logo de TOR
Kämpf, David
1 500 000 $
C
UFA - 1
Logo de TOR
Kerfoot, Alexander
3 500 000 $
AG, C
NTC
UFA - 1
Logo de TOR
Simmonds, Wayne
900 000 $
AD, AG
NTC
UFA - 1
Logo de TOR
Gaudette, Adam
750 000 $
C, AD
RFA - 1
Logo de TOR
Aubé-Kubel, Nicolas
1 000 000 $
AD
UFA - 1
Défenseur gaucherDéfenseur droitierGardien de but
Logo de TOR
Rielly, Morgan
7 500 000 $
DG
NMC
UFA - 8
Logo de TOR
Brodie, TJ
5 000 000 $
DG/DD
NTC
UFA - 2
Logo de TOR
Murray, Matt
4 687 500 $
G
NTC
UFA - 2
Logo de ARI
Chychrun, Jakob
4 600 000 $
DG/DD
UFA - 3
Logo de TOR
Liljegren, Timothy
1 400 000 $
DD
RFA - 2
Logo de TOR
Samsonov, Ilya
1 800 000 $
G
RFA - 1
Logo de TOR
Giordano, Mark
800 000 $
DG
UFA - 2
Logo de TOR
Benn, Jordie
750 000 $
DG/DD
UFA - 1
Laissés de côtéListe des blessés (IR)Liste des blessés à long terme (LTIR)
Logo de TOR
Clifford, Kyle
762 500 $
AG
UFA - 2
Logo de TOR
Anderson, Joey
750 000 $
AD
RFA - 1

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17 août à 18 h 13
#1
FKA Bigtittielarper
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The upgrade from muzzin to chychrun isn’t that much, that’s a lot to pay even sandin and the first seems heavy but with the way things are going in contract talks maybe it’s more plausible
17 août à 18 h 21
#2
Sway4Vezina
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Modifié 17 août à 19 h 17
Add Engvall and a 2nd and coyotes accept.
17 août à 18 h 23
#3
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Quoting: SomeonesOffended
The upgrade from muzzin to chychrun isn’t that much, that’s a lot to pay even sandin and the first seems heavy but with the way things are going in contract talks maybe it’s more plausible


Chychrun is only 24 with top 2 upside. Comparing him alone to muzzin is criminal. Offer them muzzin and robertson and they laugh at you.
17 août à 18 h 23
#4
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Quoting: cMac73
Add Engvall and a 2nd and coyotes except.


The price I offered is around what they are looking to get in return for chychrun. Why would they wanna take engvall??
17 août à 18 h 25
#5
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Quoting: kxllua
The price I offered is around what they are looking to get in return for chychrun. Why would they wanna take engvall??


To give the leafs a little more cap room and to flip at the deadline for maybe a third.

Also when your first round pick is most likely later then most teams you need to add a little more.
17 août à 18 h 27
#6
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Quoting: SomeonesOffended
The upgrade from muzzin to chychrun isn’t that much, that’s a lot to pay even sandin and the first seems heavy but with the way things are going in contract talks maybe it’s more plausible


Just to add to what you said:

Muzzin probably wouldn't waive but it would be a mistake to trade him even if they acquire Chychrun since he can't stay healthy for more than 60 games, and I also have the feeling that the weaknesses in his game would appear more prominent in Toronto.

They could just slot Chychrun on the right side. Of course to acquire him they would need to move out Muzzin's contract. Which means if Muzzin and Sandin are going out, the Leafs still need to bring in another guy, preferably a RHD, but the cap there needs to work as well.
17 août à 18 h 31
#7
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Quoting: GMBL
Just to add to what you said:

Muzzin probably wouldn't waive but it would be a mistake to trade him even if they acquire Chychrun since he can't stay healthy for more than 60 games, and I also have the feeling that the weaknesses in his game would appear more prominent in Toronto.

They could just slot Chychrun on the right side. Of course to acquire him they would need to move out Muzzin's contract. Which means if Muzzin and Sandin are going out, the Leafs still need to bring in another guy, preferably a RHD, but the cap there needs to work as well.



If anything, playing in Toronto will better Chychrun's game. Will get 2nd PP minutes, alleviating the stress he had of always being the #1 guy on a terrible Arizona. Can develop around guys like Rielly, Brodie, and Gio. Playing alongside Liljegren may help Lilly develop too. Chychrun not being able to stay healthy most likely has to do with him playing 20+ minutes a night on a team that gets destroyed every night.
As for depth guys, it's why they signed Jordie Benn.
17 août à 18 h 33
#8
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Quoting: kxllua
Chychrun is only 24 with top 2 upside. Comparing him alone to muzzin is criminal. Offer them muzzin and robertson and they laugh at you.


I’m saying take Robertson out not just Robertson
17 août à 18 h 38
#9
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Quoting: kxllua
Chychrun is only 24 with top 2 upside. Comparing him alone to muzzin is criminal. Offer them muzzin and robertson and they laugh at you.


Chychrun is overrated, he has top 4 potential, not top 2. He's only 24, but he already has injury issues that have prevented him from playing full seasons except during the shortened one, and he's longest season was in his rookie year. So, that alone will probably prevent him from ever being a top 2 D-men if he can't stay healthy.

A lot of people like to look at ARZ and say oh x player is doing good/bad their but if they were on a good team they would be better, which isn't necessarily true. Arz is a nice place to play probably in terms of living there and playing in a low pressure market with the expectation of not being good which is a recipe for good play. On the flip side, there is a losing environment which could negatively affect someone who has been there for so long. That being said it would probably be foolish for an opposing GM to assume that/pay the ask for "Chychrun the top 2 Dman".
17 août à 18 h 40
#10
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Modifié 17 août à 18 h 45
Quoting: kxllua
If anything, playing in Toronto will better Chychrun's game. Will get 2nd PP minutes, alleviating the stress he had of always being the #1 guy on a terrible Arizona. Can develop around guys like Rielly, Brodie, and Gio. Playing alongside Liljegren may help Lilly develop too. Chychrun not being able to stay healthy most likely has to do with him playing 20+ minutes a night on a team that gets destroyed every night.
As for depth guys, it's why they signed Jordie Benn.


Kind of responded to this in my previous post but if you are giving that muxh up, you can bet to expect to be able to play him 20+ minutes.

Also, Toronto barely plays PP2, but they would want him for what hd can do in 5v5 anyways. He's going to have to be able to be in a shutdown pairing but also have offensive upside.

It's also too early for the Leafs to move on from Robertson, he's not exendable yet because none of those other guys have arrived, if he's moved it should be because they expect him to arrive too late, but he should be moved to acquire another potential top 6 guy who is NHL ready/on the cusp.
17 août à 18 h 46
#11
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Quoting: GMBL
Chychrun is overrated, he has top 4 potential, not top 2. He's only 24, but he already has injury issues that have prevented him from playing full seasons except during the shortened one, and he's longest season was in his rookie year. So, that alone will probably prevent him from ever being a top 2 D-men if he can't stay healthy.

A lot of people like to look at ARZ and say oh x player is doing good/bad their but if they were on a good team they would be better, which isn't necessarily true. Arz is a nice place to play probably in terms of living there and playing in a low pressure market with the expectation of not being good which is a recipe for good play. On the flip side, there is a losing environment which could negatively affect someone who has been there for so long. That being said it would probably be foolish for an opposing GM to assume that/pay the ask for "Chychrun the top 2 Dman".


What??? How can a plyer do really well on the yotes, go somewhere else and not do BETTER? A player is easily affected by his environment. He's not overrated. He's 24, locked into a cheap deal for the next 3 seasons and is capable of putting up top 2 numbers, we've seen it. The leafs have a good D core, he would be adding to the top 4, but easing into more minutes behind rielly. You're paying the amount at which you are because of his age and contract, and it's has a very high reward. He is worth exactly what the yotes are asking. If you can't see his top 2 upside you might be drunk.
17 août à 19 h 11
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Quoting: kxllua
What??? How can a plyer do really well on the yotes, go somewhere else and not do BETTER? A player is easily affected by his environment. He's not overrated. He's 24, locked into a cheap deal for the next 3 seasons and is capable of putting up top 2 numbers, we've seen it. The leafs have a good D core, he would be adding to the top 4, but easing into more minutes behind rielly. You're paying the amount at which you are because of his age and contract, and it's has a very high reward. He is worth exactly what the yotes are asking. If you can't see his top 2 upside you might be drunk.


I just said how, playing on the Yotes means playing on a losing team which could negatively affect play, but they are playing in Arizona as a location (Scotrsdale? Glendale?) isn't a terrible for players to live vs a place like Buffalo which some players do not prefer or Winnipeg even though they aren't a bottom feeder, they are also playing in a small market that doesn't care too much for hockey and they are pretty much always in a rebuild. That means little to no expectation from fans and management which allows for a low pressure environment. They are playing in a losing environment and Chychrun is sick of it, so perhaps he does better but that won't necessarily be true, he's going to have more pressure on him (especially if he's traded for a huge package) and pressure affects players' performance as well.

People thought OEL's decline in recent years might have been more because of the team rather than his age but as far as I know he hasn't had a resurgence. Connor Garland did good in Arizona and he's still doing good in Vancouver but he is doing the same, not more.

Now look at struggling players who went to Arizona, Ghost and Ritchie are two players who were struggling and Ghost had a bounce back season while Ritchie went from like no points to a similar production as Crouse in Arz.

There are a ton of players on Arz who have had good seasons in the last couple of years, doesn't mean that they are all going to be elite or better on better teams.

So, what I'm saying is Chychrun is good and he has potential but he's a top 4 guy and probably stays at that due to injury.
17 août à 19 h 22
#13
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The usual silliness of thinking NTC Muzzin waives to Arizona. Don't know why you say Sandin "isn't staying in Toronto". He has had the opportunity to sign with all 32 NHL teams....no takers. As a RFA why wouldn't he stay a Leafs. Really the Leafs don't need Chychrun that much and the expense of Sandin, Robertson and a first
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17 août à 19 h 24
#14
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Quoting: palhal
The usual silliness of thinking NTC Muzzin waives to Arizona. Don't know why you say Sandin "isn't staying in Toronto". He has had the opportunity to sign with all 32 NHL teams....no takers. As a RFA why wouldn't he stay a Leafs. Really the Leafs don't need Chychrun that much and the expense of Sandin, Robertson and a first


I literally explained it already man. It's all hypothetical. Nobody on capfriendly knows how to have some fun man why do yall be taking everything so serious
17 août à 19 h 24
#15
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Quoting: kxllua
I literally explained it already man. It's all hypothetical. Nobody on capfriendly knows how to have some fun man why do yall be taking everything so serious


You explained why Arizona might take Muzzin, but you did give one reason why Muzzin towards the end of career would leave a good Leaf team, "his hometown" for a lousy team with the worse travel schedule in the league. Why do y'all think so?
17 août à 19 h 30
#16
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Your descriptions hurt your own trade proposal.
Below I have listed YOUR descriptions, as well as how that looks to the Yotes.

Sandin - clearly not staying in Toronto and no room for him in the depth chart = clearly he is good enough for ARZ to get rid of a better D.
Robertson - late bloomer and injury issues due to size, also being passed up by other TOR prospects = that is the prospect that ARZ would want.
Muzzin - two years of "not a bad cap hit" at 5.6 M and injury prone, mentor/leader for the young guys = two years of an aging player with declining availability and production they can possibly put on LTIR. Also with the NTC, should have fun trying to flip him this season or next season while retaining.
17 août à 19 h 32
#17
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Quoting: CoachCoach
Your descriptions hurt your own trade proposal.
Below I have listed YOUR descriptions, as well as how that looks to the Yotes.

Sandin - clearly not staying in Toronto and no room for him in the depth chart = clearly he is good enough for ARZ to get rid of a better D.
Robertson - late bloomer and injury issues due to size, also being passed up by other TOR prospects = that is the prospect that ARZ would want.
Muzzin - two years of "not a bad cap hit" at 5.6 M and injury prone, mentor/leader for the young guys = two years of an aging player with declining availability and production they can possibly put on LTIR. Also with the NTC, should have fun trying to flip him this season or next season while retaining.


don't see anything wrong with it. It was rumoured that the yotes wanted nikitia ****ing zaitsev back in a trade for chychrun with the senators. Anything is possible.
17 août à 19 h 49
#18
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Quoting: kxllua
don't see anything wrong with it. It was rumoured that the yotes wanted nikitia ****ing zaitsev back in a trade for chychrun with the senators. Anything is possible.


Two blue chip prospects, two firsts. That was the asking price. They said they would retain to get that asking price. In what world are Sandin and Robertson blue chips? You also only have one first round pick instead of two, while still having a cap dump (Muzzin is a cap dump TO ARIZONA). He adds absolutely nothing to their team for the long haul. They aren't the ones offering the trade in this scenario. You want them to take him, it will cost you more.

If you wanted to be realistic, it would be more of a swap with players YOU don't want to lose, or would be uneasy losing. It is very easy to click "Kerfoot, Holl, Muzzin, Robertson, 1st round" because most Leaf fans couldn't care if they are Leafs or not.

A more accurate trade would look more like:
Toronto receives: Chychrun + TOR 2025 2nd
Arizona receives: Knies (from ARZ) OR Topi (high end D prospect to make up for Chychrun) + 2023 1st + Sandin + Muzzin

You give value to get value. In this scenario, Arizona gets one high end prospect, one first rounder (albeit late), Sandin who TOR may not sign anyway but does have value + Muzzin's contract. Toronto gets better and younger on a D that is entering his prime (Chychrun signed for 3 more seasons is head and shoulders above Muzzin 5.6 x 2), doesn't have to worry about re-signing Sandin, and rids themselves of Muzzin's contract while being cap compliant.

That space lets you float for a little bit until the market returns more towards normalcy, giving you time to get "proper" value if TOR still wants to move a Kerfoot or Holl. Considering most Leaf fans believe both players are worth every penny (on CF when trading them for outrageous offers, but not when its for something worse), give it some time until you think you can get a return close to that. Or it allows them to keep King Kerfoot which makes Toronto better.
17 août à 20 h 0
#19
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Quoting: CoachCoach
Two blue chip prospects, two firsts. That was the asking price. They said they would retain to get that asking price. In what world are Sandin and Robertson blue chips? You also only have one first round pick instead of two, while still having a cap dump (Muzzin is a cap dump TO ARIZONA). He adds absolutely nothing to their team for the long haul. They aren't the ones offering the trade in this scenario. You want them to take him, it will cost you more.

If you wanted to be realistic, it would be more of a swap with players YOU don't want to lose, or would be uneasy losing. It is very easy to click "Kerfoot, Holl, Muzzin, Robertson, 1st round" because most Leaf fans couldn't care if they are Leafs or not.

A more accurate trade would look more like:
Toronto receives: Chychrun + TOR 2025 2nd
Arizona receives: Knies (from ARZ) OR Topi (high end D prospect to make up for Chychrun) + 2023 1st + Sandin + Muzzin

You give value to get value. In this scenario, Arizona gets one high end prospect, one first rounder (albeit late), Sandin who TOR may not sign anyway but does have value + Muzzin's contract. Toronto gets better and younger on a D that is entering his prime (Chychrun signed for 3 more seasons is head and shoulders above Muzzin 5.6 x 2), doesn't have to worry about re-signing Sandin, and rids themselves of Muzzin's contract while being cap compliant.

That space lets you float for a little bit until the market returns more towards normalcy, giving you time to get "proper" value if TOR still wants to move a Kerfoot or Holl. Considering most Leaf fans believe both players are worth every penny (on CF when trading them for outrageous offers, but not when its for something worse), give it some time until you think you can get a return close to that. Or it allows them to keep King Kerfoot which makes Toronto better.


listen man, im gonna be as respectful as possible, sometimes its fun to come on here and talk hypotheticals. its okay to throw wacky trade proposals in the mix and play the game of (what if). I wasn't thinking THAT deep into it, just having a little bit of fun. Also, If I'm gonna keep it 100 with you, I'm not reading the essay you just sent me.
17 août à 20 h 6
#20
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Quoting: kxllua
listen man, im gonna be as respectful as possible, sometimes its fun to come on here and talk hypotheticals. its okay to throw wacky trade proposals in the mix and play the game of (what if). I wasn't thinking THAT deep into it, just having a little bit of fun. Also, If I'm gonna keep it 100 with you, I'm not reading the essay you just sent me.


Listen man, im also being respectful. I didn't attack you or say that is the worst offer ever. I didn't say anything to* you like Dubas is laughed off the phone, etc. All I did was respond to you "breaking down" how this trade works. I "broke down" why it didn't. You took the time to enter descriptions in the trades. You can't be mad when someone does the same.
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17 août à 20 h 14
#21
Kster
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@ kxllua - why are you so sure that Sandin is not staying in Toronto? are you thinking the same about Robertson (Dallas), Dach (Habs), Dobson (Isles), McLeod (Oil), etc etc? Lots of rfas still have to be signed - no need to panic brah.
Leafs will get it done; certainly no need to trade Sandin + all that for chykrun - dude is woefully overrated.
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17 août à 20 h 35
#22
FireKyle
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Robertson’s development or lack there of is because he’s made of eggshells
17 août à 21 h 19
#23
mokumboi
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There's no blie chipper here, and then Arizona won't want Muzzin. So this is gonna be well short.
17 août à 21 h 40
#24
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YOU SURE U DONT WANT TO GIVE THEM MATTHEWS AND MARNER WHILE YOUR AT IT? MUZZIN ISNT GONNA WAIVE TO GO TO ARIZONA ALSO WHY ARE WE GIVING THEM SANDIN? HE HAS POTENTIAL TO BE ON THE 2ND LINE FOR WHEN MUZZIN RETIRES. WE DONT NEED CHYCRUN. ALSO IF MONTREAL COULD GET A 1ST ROUND PICK FOR ROMINOV THEN IM PRETTY SURE WE CAN GET A 3RD FOR HOLL
22 août à 4 h 38
#25
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Quoting: jamathon
YOU SURE U DONT WANT TO GIVE THEM MATTHEWS AND MARNER WHILE YOUR AT IT? MUZZIN ISNT GONNA WAIVE TO GO TO ARIZONA ALSO WHY ARE WE GIVING THEM SANDIN? HE HAS POTENTIAL TO BE ON THE 2ND LINE FOR WHEN MUZZIN RETIRES. WE DONT NEED CHYCRUN. ALSO IF MONTREAL COULD GET A 1ST ROUND PICK FOR ROMINOV THEN IM PRETTY SURE WE CAN GET A 3RD FOR HOLL


1. stop yelling bro its not that serious
2. nobody is giving you a 3rd for holl, keep dreaming.
3. sandin probably wont stay, looking more like it every day.
4. its all hypothetical. ik they dont want chychrun, relax man.
 
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